Two NYPD executed

[PreachersWife2004]

The tension won't go away by ignoring the problems and enforcing a status-quo it either. If basic grievances continue to be ignored, it will continue until an event triggers violence. We are having this discussion now whether we like it or not. Blaming the people who are upset at the police and protesting peacefully/speaking out in our basic democratic manner for the actions of those who turn to violence (or promote violence) doesn't solve the problem, it actually inflames it, and it is sickening. People aren't allowed to speak their minds, or protest the injustices they see because others may to too far and turn to violence? You are who I am talking about. Disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I think I was fairly clear when I said the ones who are shouting for cops deaths are drowning everyone out. Perhaps you failed to comprehend that while tearing into people on this thread for not holding the same opinion as you?

So take your anger and point it at the ones calling for the death of cops. THEY deserve it.

 

[GarfieldJL]

I see you did not understand my post. Perhaps some of the other adults will.

On the contrary, it looks like she understood your post just fine and that's why she called you out.

The tension won't go away by ignoring the problems and enforcing a status-quo it either. If basic grievances continue to be ignored, it will continue until an event triggers violence.

The problem is that people are turning things into a race issue when it was a case of government trying to wring every dime they could out of people in the Garner case.

Now the politicians are glad that people are blaming the cops for the bad law they enacted.

We are having this discussion now whether we like it or not.

A discussion about bad laws, or blaming cops for the bad laws? People were wrong about the Fergusson case, it was actually self-defense, not race.

Blaming the people who are upset at the police and protesting peacefully/speaking out in our basic democratic manner for the actions of those who turn to violence (or promote violence) doesn't solve the problem, it actually inflames it, and it is sickening.

Why not? Liberals seemed perfectly willing to blame the Tea Party for any violent statements (even fictious ones), to attempt to discredit them. Why should people of the group you support be treated any differently?

People aren't allowed to speak their minds, or protest the injustices they see because others may to too far and turn to violence?

My problem with the Fergusson Protestors was that they didn't look at the facts. I'm not going to condemn an innocent man for acting in self-defense.

My problem with the people protesting over the Garner Death is that they should also be blaming the city government (and possibly the state government), for a bad law that put the police in that situation in the first place.

You are who I am talking about. Disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Maybe you should calm down...

 

[variant]

Right now the anti-cop argument has no valid points, unless you count "kill pigs" as a valid point.

If you choose to see the situation as black or white.

There are plenty of protesters out there with legitimate grievances that they are airing, unless you think the entire group wants to resort to violence or kill cops which is ridiculous.

If you think all these people want dead cops then you've already lost the war here:

 

[PreachersWife2004]

If you choose to see the situation as black or white. There are plenty of protesters out there with legitimate grievances that they are airing, unless you think the entire group wants to resort to violence or kill cops which is ridiculous. If you think all these people want dead cops then you've already lost the war here: http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/eric-garner-protests-nyc.png

If they are talking legitimate grievances without shouting about killing cops then, as I clearly pointed out earlier, I do not include them as being anti-cop. If they continually air these grievances with the crowd calling for dead cops then yes, they'll get included in the name.

You seem to be ignoring half of the content of my posts.

 

[variant]

The problem is that people are turning things into a race issue when it was a case of government trying to wring every dime they could out of people in the Garner case.

Now the politicians are glad that people are blaming the cops for the bad law they enacted.

It is a race issue on the enforcement side.

I also don't see many people taking to the streets protesting cigarette taxes.

A discussion about bad laws, or blaming cops for the bad laws?

People are blaming the police for brutality in the Eric Gardner case, the justice system for not indicting the officer, and the enforcement of harsh penalties against minor crimes in the "broken windows policy" for politicians and the police in general.

So, um, you should at least pay attention to what the other side is talking about.

People were wrong about the Fergusson case, it was actually self-defense, not race.

From Gods mouth to your ears I suppose.

Why not? Liberals seemed perfectly willing to blame the Tea Party for any violent statements (even fictious ones), to attempt to discredit them. Why should people of the group you support be treated any differently?

You are promoting things you think are wrong because "Liberals do it too"?

Fancy system of justification you have.

My problem with the Fergusson Protestors was that they didn't look at the facts. I'm not going to condemn an innocent man for acting in self-defense.

I don't even remember bringing up Ferguson, the Mayor was certainly not talking about it in the comments they were mad about...

My problem with the people protesting over the Garner Death is that they should also be blaming the city government (and possibly the state government), for a bad law that put the police in that situation in the first place.

Who says they aren't? They are indeed protesting the "broken windows policy" that lead to a minor infraction elevating to a deadly overzealous arrest.

But if your main problem is that they don't look at the issue like a died in the wool conservative reading the Blaze all day I don't think you're going to get anywhere with that line of thinking.

Maybe you should calm down...

I'll use the tone I think is appropriate thanks.

 

[variant]

If they are talking legitimate grievances without shouting about killing cops then, as I clearly pointed out earlier, I do not include them as being anti-cop. If they continually air these grievances with the crowd calling for dead cops then yes, they'll get included in the name.

You seem to be ignoring half of the content of my posts.

I'm not ignoring anything, you sincerely seem to me to wish to broad brush your opposition.

Like in this post where you blame violence on the mere act of people saying what they think:

This "crisis" escalated because of race baiters inciting these people.

Repercussions because police, for the most part, are doing their job??

MORE people will die, and it won't be because of a few bad cops. It will be because of statements like yours.

 

[HannahT]

The tension won't go away by ignoring the problems and enforcing a status-quo it either. If basic grievances continue to be ignored, it will continue until an event triggers violence.

We are having this discussion now whether we like it or not.

Blaming the people who are upset at the police and protesting peacefully/speaking out in our basic democratic manner for the actions of those who turn to violence (or promote violence) doesn't solve the problem, it actually inflames it, and it is sickening.

I didn't say I was blaming the people who are protesting peacefully. In fact, I have now said TWICE that protesting is a good thing.

Matter of fact, I didn't go anywhere near IT!

If we are going to HAVE this discussion - whether we like it or not - part of that is listening to the other side too.

So your assumptions about my statements, and how I feel are completely off base.

That type of behavior is what 'inflames' things. Are you willing to own that, or is deflecting suppose to be normal behavior today?

 

[Bedford]

Mature adults point out the discrepancies that they see, and are able to so do clearly.

So, instead of talking down to me why can't we start there.

How does showing extremists from the other side, and their dangerous actions prove your point?

Everyone knows when you racket things up the nuts come out in numbers.

Things have been racketing up for a long time, and warnings over this type of thing have been mentioned many times. Unless you live under a rock - or choose to ignore it of course.

Protesting can be very effective, but when it turns into more rage than principal? Its not.

This isn't rocket science.

I will refrain from talking down to you the moment you refrain from talking down to me.

 

[HannahT]

I will refrain from talking down to you the moment you refrain from talking down to me.

I guess that means you couldn't find an 'adult' to explain it to us then huh?

 

[variant]

I didn't say I was blaming the people who are protesting peacefully. In fact, I have now said TWICE that protesting is a good thing.

Matter of fact, I didn't go anywhere near IT!

No you just blamed the violence on the protesting and blamed the mayor for even slightly siding with the protesters.

Except in the current climate everything is black and white thinking. It makes for a good news story, and so they keep stirring the pot. Sigh - when do people demand effectiveness on that front.

I'm NOT against people protesting, but things were getting heated up...and people continued to put gas on the fire.

Many saw this coming by the increasing anger shown on the news. It was just a matter of time.

Mayor Bill de Blasio out of respect due to his comments needs to stay away from their funerals.

If we are going to HAVE this discussion - whether we like it or not - part of that is listening to the other side too.

So your assumptions about my statements, and how I feel are completely off base.

I don't think I'm off base at all. You clearly seem to be blameing people who merely disagree with you for the violence even if they never called for any.

That type of behavior is what 'inflames' things. Are you willing to own that, or is deflecting suppose to be normal behavior today?

I'm never going to "own" another persons violence when I neither called for or encouraged it, and it is disrespectful for you to even ask me to.

 

[Bedford]

I guess that means you couldn't find an 'adult' to explain it to us then huh?

From your comments, I can tell you do not have a firm grasp on this discussion.

Variant has explained it better than I, yet you can't seem to understand.

 

[GarfieldJL]

It is a race issue on the enforcement side.

I also don't see many people taking to the streets protesting cigarette taxes.

Because race hustlers distracted people from the real issue.

People are blaming the police for brutality in the Eric Gardner case, the justice system for not indicting the officer, and the enforcement of harsh penalties against minor crimes in the "broken windows policy" for politicians and the police in general.

Which officer should have been charged, from what I've heard the "choke hold" wouldn't have caused Garner to die in and of itself. It could have just as easily been the actions of one of the other officers that pushed things to where Garner died.

So, um, you should at least pay attention to what the other side is talking about.

I have, and I've noticed your side is overlooking the fact the bad law is what put the cops in this bad situation to begin with.

From Gods mouth to your ears I suppose.

It would be arrogant for me to assume that, I'm merely looking at the forensic evidence and the chain of events. Brown had already attacked the officer in the Fergusson case, the officer was ordering him on the ground because he knew Brown had already demonstrated a capacity for violence.

You are promoting things you think are wrong because "Liberals do it too"?

Fancy system of justification you have.

I was pointing out the fact you were being hypocritical, and don't deny it you and I have gotten into heated debates concerning the Tea Party before.

I don't even remember bringing up Ferguson, the Mayor was certainly not talking about it in the comments they were mad about...

How much of what happened in New York stems from what happened in Fergusson (from the protest standpoint).

Who says they aren't? They are indeed protesting the "broken windows policy" that lead to a minor infraction elevating to a deadly overzealous arrest.

It had nothing to do with the "broken windows policy," and had everything to do with tax revenue. The government didn't see it as a minor issue because it meant they weren't getting as much revenue from taxes.

But if your main problem is that they don't look at the issue like a died in the wool conservative reading the Blaze all day I don't think you're going to get anywhere with that line of thinking.

I generally don't read the Blaze, they get too opinionated at times.

I'll use the tone I think is appropriate thanks.

variant, you're taking personal swipes at board members for no reason, this topic is emotional enough without adding a flame war to the mix.

 

[variant]

Because race hustlers distracted people from the real issue.

The issue is that the man is dead due to overzealous policing of a minor infraction.

The government didn't even bother to indict the guy after he was caught doing this on video tape.

You "small government" guys SHOULD be all over his case but here you are defending the police who over zealously enforce the laws you oppose!

This would be like you defending the FBI had they shot Cliven Bundy in the head.

Which officer should have been charged, from what I've heard the "choke hold" wouldn't have caused Garner to die in and of itself. It could have just as easily been the actions of one of the other officers that pushed things to where Garner died.

I'm guessing he's alive today if no one choked him to the ground and sat on his back while he said he couldn't breath.

I have, and I've noticed your side is overlooking the fact the bad law is what put the cops in this bad situation to begin with.

It's immaterial. If it were a good fine the cop were enforcing it doesn't help the fact that it was overzealous enforced, it doesn't matter unless he feared for his life from an overweight guy backing up with his hands up.

The man deserved a slip of paper and a calm talking to.

It would be arrogant for me to assume that, I'm merely looking at the forensic evidence and the chain of events. Brown had already attacked the officer in the Fergusson case, the officer was ordering him on the ground because he knew Brown had already demonstrated a capacity for violence.

OK, I don't really want to re-argue all that. I would suggest that the officer should have been indicted and tried by a real jury instead of tried improperly by a Grand Jury.

I was pointing out the fact you were being hypocritical, and don't deny it you and I have gotten into heated debates concerning the Tea Party before.

I do deny it. I have consistently said people calling for violence or threatening the use of it are wrong.

How much of what happened in New York stems from what happened in Fergusson (from the protest standpoint).

Hard to say but the protests do seem to have flared up after the grand jury decided not indict in the Gardner case.

It had nothing to do with the "broken windows policy," and had everything to do with tax revenue. The government didn't see it as a minor issue because it meant they weren't getting as much revenue from taxes.

I find your reasoning to be in error, as the "broken windows policy" is known to effect more than just things like black market cigarettes.

The Cops in question were enforcing the "broken windows policy" in this case. It is where you treat minor infractions more seriously to try to keep serious infractions at bay.

NYC Congressman says outdated 'broken windows' policing a factor in Eric Garner death | The Rundown | PBS NewsHour

I generally don't read the Blaze, they get too opinionated at times.

Well whatever it is, you are more likely to win over the people involved by trying to put yourself in their place of out how the overzealous policing actually effects their lives.

variant, you're taking personal swipes at board members for no reason, this topic is emotional enough without adding a flame war to the mix.

It's not personal it's ideological. The people I am taking swipes at are laying blame for violence in a manner I find distasteful.

I am going to continue to say so because I don't pull my punches.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

It's not personal it's ideological. The people I am taking swipes at are laying blame for violence in a manner I find distasteful.

I am going to continue to say so because I don't pull my punches.

So who do YOU blame then, aside from the criminals?

Do you believe that words can inflame people and rile them up?


I believe that saying things like "However, with all that has recently happened, who here thought that this crisis would not escalate?" seem to excuse the behavior. Bedford also said this: "Maybe if cops didn't go around killing and injuring innocent people, then getting away with it, we would not see this kind of thing happen."

So yeah, let's talk about taking swipes and laying blame. It couldn't possibly be that this guy was fueled by the cop-haters and their protests, oh NO, it had to be that cops do bad things.

 

[Bedford]

So who do YOU blame then, aside from the criminals?

Do you believe that words can inflame people and rile them up?


I believe that saying things like "However, with all that has recently happened, who here thought that this crisis would not escalate?" seem to excuse the behavior. Bedford also said this: "Maybe if cops didn't go around killing and injuring innocent people, then getting away with it, we would not see this kind of thing happen."

So yeah, let's talk about taking swipes and laying blame. It couldn't possibly be that this guy was fueled by the cop-haters and their protests, oh NO, it had to be that cops do bad things.

Yep, there is enough blame to go around. At least I understand that both sides have contributed to the problem, whereas you appear to be standing firm on one side. I bet it has something to do with your time in Detroit, right?

 

[Bedford]

So who do YOU blame then, aside from the criminals?

Do you believe that words can inflame people and rile them up?


I believe that saying things like "However, with all that has recently happened, who here thought that this crisis would not escalate?" seem to excuse the behavior. Bedford also said this: "Maybe if cops didn't go around killing and injuring innocent people, then getting away with it, we would not see this kind of thing happen."

So yeah, let's talk about taking swipes and laying blame. It couldn't possibly be that this guy was fueled by the cop-haters and their protests, oh NO, it had to be that cops do bad things.

LOL

Pro-slavery Ohio officer quits when he’s caught wishing for all blacks to be ‘exterminated’

 

[GarfieldJL]

The issue is that the man is dead due to overzealous policing of a minor infraction.

The government didn't even bother to indict the guy after he was caught doing this on video tape.

You "small government" guys SHOULD be all over his case but here you are defending the police who over zealously enforce the laws you oppose!

This would be like you defending the FBI had they shot Cliven Bundy in the head.

I'm not defending the police on the Garner incident, however I think the reason he wasn't charged may have more to do with the resulting trial would have ended up being extremely embarassing for New York City (and possibly for the state as well).

I'm guessing he's alive today if no one choked him to the ground and sat on his back while he said he couldn't breath.

According to what I've read/heard about this case, it could have easily have been the officer shoving Mr. Garner's face into the ground. The "choke-hold" as you call it was done in a manner that is generally considered non-lethal. So far, the one officer hasn't been indicted, that doesn't mean the other officers couldn't.

It's immaterial. If it were a good fine the cop were enforcing it doesn't help the fact that it was overzealous enforced, it doesn't matter unless he feared for his life from an overweight guy backing up with his hands up.

The man deserved a slip of paper and a calm talking to.

Again though, you don't know the policy that was set forth by the government. As I said, this could be due to the fact that a trial would have turned into a total embarassment for the politicians.

OK, I don't really want to re-argue all that. I would suggest that the officer should have been indicted and tried by a real jury instead of tried improperly by a Grand Jury.

Can't, due to double jeopardy. That being said, the other officers could be held responsible, their jumping into the situation may have been the thing that ended up causing Garner's death.

I do deny it. I have consistently said people calling for violence or threatening the use of it are wrong.

You just proved my point, the Tea Party was peaceful, the people calling for violence weren't welcome, that didn't stop people from trying to blame them for things like the Giffords shooting.

Hard to say but the protests do seem to have flared up after the grand jury decided not indict in the Gardner case.

I find your reasoning to be in error, as the "broken windows policy" is known to effect more than just things like black market cigarettes.

The Cops in question were enforcing the "broken windows policy" in this case. It is where you treat minor infractions more seriously to try to keep serious infractions at bay.

NYC Congressman says outdated 'broken windows' policing a factor in Eric Garner death | The Rundown | PBS NewsHour

Except this wasn't a minor issue to the politicians, this was tax revenue they weren't getting.

Well whatever it is, you are more likely to win over the people involved by trying to put yourself in their place of out how the overzealous policing actually effects their lives.

Who set those policies, the police or the government? Conservatives aren't disagreeing that what happened to Mr. Garner was wrong, but we're disagreeing over who is actually more responsible.

It's not personal it's ideological. The people I am taking swipes at are laying blame for violence in a manner I find distasteful.

Maybe now you understand why so many supporters of the Tea Party were angry with you...

I am going to continue to say so because I don't pull my punches.

I've noticed.

 

[variant]

So who do YOU blame then, aside from the criminals?

Do you believe that words can inflame people and rile them up?

I believe people are responcable for their own actions.

Including calling for violence which is almost always inappropriate since we don't live in a dictatorship.

Calling for protest and civil disobedience though is entirely appropriate, some people, though are going to be prone to take things too far.

They are entirely wrong, and very unhelpful, but they are a symptom.

I believe that saying things like "However, with all that has recently happened, who here thought that this crisis would not escalate?" seem to excuse the behavior. Bedford also said this: "Maybe if cops didn't go around killing and injuring innocent people, then getting away with it, we would not see this kind of thing happen."

I read Bedford as simply pointing out the logical consequences of continued police brutality, and the crass allowance there of.

One of the problems here is that the police and their sympathizers don't want to admit that anything wrong happened or happens or make any changes, which simply ignores the grievances against them.

The Mayor is getting a sincere disrespect from the Police for not marching in lock step and everyone in the opposition whether they called for any violence or not is getting blamed for what was the act of a murderer.

So yeah, let's talk about taking swipes and laying blame. It couldn't possibly be that this guy was fueled by the cop-haters and their protests, oh NO, it had to be that cops do bad things.

You are just ignoring the problem and spreading the blame undeservingly to taint your opposition.

My position is that holding the police to higher standards of action will result in fewer police deaths, less crime overall and less civil unrest and that the position that the police can do no wrong is fool-hearty.

 

[Smidlee]

Why should we expect cops would be more righteous than lawyers, politicians, judges, movie stars, sport figures, etc?

 

[variant]

I'm not defending the police on the Garner incident, however I think the reason he wasn't charged may have more to do with the resulting trial would have ended up being extremely embarassing for New York City (and possibly for the state as well).

It had to do with prosecutors not wanting to indict police.

According to what I've read/heard about this case, it could have easily have been the officer shoving Mr. Garner's face into the ground. The "choke-hold" as you call it was done in a manner that is generally considered non-lethal. So far, the one officer hasn't been indicted, that doesn't mean the other officers couldn't.

No, officer will ever be indicted if video evidence isn't enough to show something illegal may have occurred.

Again though, you don't know the policy that was set forth by the government.

I do know that, but I understand that they are also protesting the government.

As I said, this could be due to the fact that a trial would have turned into a total embarassment for the politicians.

I'm betting no one cares who gets embarrassed now.

Can't, due to double jeopardy. That being said, the other officers could be held responsible, their jumping into the situation may have been the thing that ended up causing Garner's death.

Right, the Grand Jury process is actively being used to protect questionable police actions.

The federal government can do something about it if they wish.

You just proved my point, the Tea Party was peaceful, the people calling for violence weren't welcome, that didn't stop people from trying to blame them for things like the Giffords shooting.

Did I? I think you accused me of blaming the Tea Party for violence.

Please apologize.

Hard to say but the protests do seem to have flared up after the grand jury decided not indict in the Gardner case.

I don't think it would be hard to say at all.

Except this wasn't a minor issue to the politicians, this was tax revenue they weren't getting.

Well the history of the broken windows policy started with public urination, graffiti and the like so it's difficult to say that the increased enforcement that dates back years before the issue you are talking about was caused by a policy not in place at the time.

Who set those policies, the police or the government? Conservatives aren't disagreeing that what happened to Mr. Garner was wrong, but we're disagreeing over who is actually more responsible.

The broken windows enforcement policy was put in place by mayor Guliani.

Maybe now you understand why so many supporters of the Tea Party were angry with you...

Please quote the offending passages:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7526180/

Or you know you can retract your statement and apologize.