Two Goats

[rick357]

"Until Christianity admits that the first church was a sect of Judaism"

it was until stoning of stephen.. then that had a tendency to make people run away screaming..

After his martyrdom there was a persecution...but the way was still in Judaism...for even after Stephan after Paul went to Damascus and after several years of ministry when Paul went up to the council... the way was established in Jerusalem still practicing Judaism as it was pointed out to Paul at how many had believed and where being observant.

even Paul himself was observant as you see him during fast days and feast days in his travels and then you see him in Jerusalem going into the temple to be purified at the moment of his arrest....

every indication is that at least as much as the Jewish believers participated in Temple worship until the temple was destroyed. Christianity did not leave Judaism until after the death of the apostles students.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

"Until Christianity admits that the first church was a sect of Judaism"

it was until stoning of stephen.. then that had a tendency to make people run away screaming..

Liars were paid to tell vicious lies against Stephen.

Guess what they said?

They said,'' This Jesus and his disciples teach people everywhere to speak against the laws of Moses and against this place.''

So they killed him and rightfully so if it would have been the truth.

These same type of liars claimed the same lies against Paul and rumored against him until Paul had to prove those liars wrong when he did sacrifice proving that he himself kept the law, and never taught anyone not to keep the law, but if the lies would have been true, he would have been deserving death also.

It isn't what Jesus came doing or what the disciples came doing, it was the liars who killed them along with countless other people.



In the same breath people claim Jesus brought a new covenant, they would separate the Jew from the gentile which would break said covenant.

The promise was that Jesus was going to adopt people, to redeem people through a marriage, to make two men one men following the same religion.

But how can somebody quote a promise of a new covenant if they reject it, and reject the brother they were to become one with?

Reject they did.


There were righteous gentiles in the beginning and they went to their death with courage, they stopped keeping all their former Pagan ways and they would only accept the ways of God and they were persecuted for it.

But 100 years after Jesus died, gentiles were no longer willing to die for Jesus.

Instead, they rejected what was given, they stood against everything that is called of God or that is worshipped, and they created their own feast days by their own imagination.

The lie had become true,'' This Messiah and his disciples teach people everywhere to stand against the laws of Moses and this place.''

They took the lie and made it true.

But it was not so in the beginning, Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism, and this is a fact, they remained a legal sect of Judaism for 100 years.

 

[Hoshiyya]

After his martyrdom there was a persecution...but the way was still in Judaism...for even after Stephan after Paul went to Damascus and after several years of ministry when Paul went up to the council... the way was established in Jerusalem still practicing Judaism as it was pointed out to Paul at how many had believed and where being observant.

even Paul himself was observant as you see him during fast days and feast days in his travels and then you see him in Jerusalem going into the temple to be purified at the moment of his arrest....

every indication is that at least as much as the Jewish believers participated in Temple worship until the temple was destroyed. Christianity did not leave Judaism until after the death of the apostles students.

The disciples, the Talmidim of Yeshua, never left Judaism (as taught by Yeshua) but the epistles make clear that there were, from the beginning, people who didn't have a concept of the way things were supposed to be. For example, it appears the Colossians were worshipping Archons/angels/the Pleroma). Consumption of animal-blood seems to have been a major problem as well from the very beginning.

 

[NannaNae]

???

do you know when the stoning of Stephen was ? and you don't know what Saul of Tarsus did ?

God is going to do something new .

here is that promise .

Eze 37:16
Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

Eze 37:17
And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Eze 37:18
¶
And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

Eze 37:19
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Eze 37:20
And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

Eze 37:21
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Eze 37:22
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Eze 37:23
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them( this would be something new and different right ?): so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24
¶
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Eze 37:25
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Eze 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Eze 37:27
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

this will be a great thing! .. a great brand New thing! something that has never been before it is still 10 /12 people who think they are gentiles. and the rest of the world is gentiles..

in the mean time might I suggest you figure out how to keep your clan from picking up stones and screaming " blasphemy" and I will worry about how to keep my ancient clan of just a few hundred years ago in those some of those clothes he will give us we will all have our troubles for sure..

 

[Hoshiyya]

I have no clear idea what you're saying, NN.

"Until Christianity admits that the first church was a sect of Judaism"
it was until stoning of stephen.. then that had a tendency to make people run away screaming..

My GUESS is you're saying Jews ... somehow are "responsible for the creation of Christianity, by their persecutions, which drove Christianity into paganism" ?

I get the "two sticks thing" but it just doesn't relate to the origins of the thing today called Christianity.

 

[NannaNae]

I have no clear idea what you're saying, NN.

"Until Christianity admits that the first church was a sect of Judaism"
it was until stoning of stephen.. then that had a tendency to make people run away screaming..

My GUESS is you're saying Jews ... somehow are "responsible for the creation of Christianity, by their persecutions, which drove Christianity into paganism" ?

I get the "two sticks thing" but it just doesn't relate to the origins of the thing today called Christianity.

yes it does ..well the 10 /12 lost boys/tribes were full blown pagans heck 12/12 were ... before he sent 10/12 them into the pagan world.. and seems many of them remained pagans even then the lost boys
they just went roman and they were just as bloody before and after( it is called you reap what you have sown into this world....)

bottom line truth is the
truth is no one is faithful , no one is trust worthy or worthy of trust , no one except Jesus/ Jehovah .

let's hope he has something new new... really new !

 

[Hoshiyya]

let's hope he has something new new... really new !

Uh-huh. And then, when you try to pass on that "new new" to your children, they will reject it, and desire something newer.

At some point, you have to accept that the truth has been given. It was new when it was spoken at Sinai, and it has been passed on since then. You can receive what G-d gave us back there, or reject it.

If you're gonna start changing things you're never going to find satisfaction.
This is what Christianity did to Judaism, and what Islam did to Christianity, and what Baha'i did to Islam. Once you decide you're not going to accept the original revelation, or that you need to "update" it, then you inevitably set yourself up for a future abrogation.

 

[rick357]

yes it does ..well the 10 /12 lost boys/tribes were full blown pagans heck 12/12 were ... before he sent 10/12 them into the pagan world.. and seems many of them remained pagans even then the lost boys
they just went roman and they were just as bloody before and after..
truth is no one is faithful , no one is trust worthy or worthy of trust , no one except Jesus/ Jehovah .

let's hope he has something new new... .. because the old and the old new ... didn't work out so good..

Seems the lost tribes would have been asimulated into the lands of ancient Syria and other desendants of shem...it would seem reasonable that if there was jewish blood in Japeth then it would come from dispersed Judah

 

[Shimshon]

Uh-huh. And then, when you try to pass on that "new new" to your children, they will reject it, and desire something newer.

At some point, you have to accept that the truth has been given. It was new when it was spoken at Sinai, and it has been passed on since then. You can receive what G-d gave us back there, or reject it.

If you're gonna start changing things you're never going to find satisfaction.
This is what Christianity did to Judaism, and what Islam did to Christianity, and what Baha'i did to Islam. Once you decide you're not going to accept the original revelation, or that you need to "update" it, then you inevitably set yourself up for a future abrogation.

Yes, and sadly that is exactly what rabbinical Judaism did. hoshiyya, you sound exactly like others from Jews for Judaism who I've ran into. Truthful, I'm holding out in faith for that which was promised over 400 yrs earlier to our father Abraham. Moses doesn't trump Abraham you know. All nations do not enter in through rabbinic Judaism.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Truthful, I'm holding out in faith for that which was promised over 400 yrs earlier to our father Abraham. Moses doesn't trump Abraham you know. All nations do not enter in through rabbinic Judaism.

1. And you believe this faith was lost, and rediscovered in the 1800's by the reformed Jews?

2. Well, in a way, I think it might be fair to say that Moses does trump (not contradict) Abraham, in my view at least.

 

[NannaNae]

Seems the lost tribes would have been asimulated into the lands of ancient Syria and other desendants of shem...it would seem reasonable that if there was jewish blood in Japeth then it would come from dispersed Judah

Issachar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Catawba people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

via http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asher
I could go on forever..

with thousands of connections in words and more.
check our Moabite stone for a older configuration of Israel.. it didn't always look like it does now.


have fun!

I just have to leave you with the thought that God doesn't lie .. he said he would scatter them to the whole world .. well he did just that in ships , heck it appears they were some of the sea traders...

 

[NannaNae]

Tracing Dan

should be noted that sea tribes had many city states.. so few came from someplace else really , but established a place early on , but with their relations / clans as connections. each had a home land .

so Finis was established by a Puni.. well some eastern north american sioux call themselves Su- poni / Saponi ..
catawba a Siouan tribe called themselves Issa must be mixed with Issachar..
I could go on and on..

but science wants to make us Chinese and Bering straits .. and create time when there is none.. because they lie.. to make time..
they use Chinese railroad workers genes, pearl divers , resent slaves from south east asian and polynesian dna to prove what they want us to be. to prove no one is who we say we are.

no the new world is mixed with a few bits of different tribes from all over and we all know it..

though if you go to deepest darkest amazon or any tribes in south america and if they learn of the world , they will either say they Greek or Egyptians or maybe Kana ( Caananites ) when they came here .
but these things mixed with Hebrew too.
and were huge influences on the whole world.

the Zoe tribe that they just found is almost perfectly Egyptians.
but those famous royal lines of Egyptians came from over here..
they are red paint clan..
and they have been doing that kind of animals raising since Noah and Gobekli tepe ..
PS be warned don't u-tube them if you can not handle naked people..
they were just found recently and they are naked..
so if you have issues with that read about them and don't watch..

 

[Hoshiyya]

but science wants to make us Chinese and Bering straits

Sciene, genes, geography, and common sense.
The only ones running contrary all of these at once are the Mormons.
They say many of the things you say, maybe you should look into that form of spirituality and see if it suits you.

By the way, using such spurious methods as characterize every single attempt to prove native Americans are Israelites, I can likewise prove - or perhaps even more convincingly prove - that the Vikings were Israelites too. And the Chinese as well - so why should the fact that native Americans are descended from Asians be a problem ? I mean, the Chinese can easily be proven to be Israelite. I doubt there is a single people in the world that could not be "proven" to be Israelite the same way.

 

[NannaNae]

Sciene, genes, geography, and common sense.
The only ones running contrary all of these at once are the Mormons.
They say many of the things you say, maybe you should look into that form of spirituality and see if it suits you.

By the way, using such spurious methods as characterize every single attempt to prove native Americans are Israelites, I can likewise prove - or perhaps even more convincingly prove - that the Vikings were Israelites too. And the Chinese as well - so why should the fact that native Americans are descended from Asians be a problem ? I mean, the Chinese can easily be proven to be Israelite. I doubt there is a single people in the world that could not be "proven" to be Israelite the same way.

no one is trying to replace you..
we are all gentiles in every way that counts.
you had better figure out how to keep the stones from your crews hands and I will try and figure out how to keep the clothes he gives us on mine alright!
I end this discussion now!

 

[Hoshiyya]

Nevertheless you should know that actually, the Vikings have a lot of interesting stuff there, seriously. Much closer to Judaism and Hebrew culture than any native American stuff.

Incidentally, we all know that historically the Vikings went to America.
Whereas only those with theological or doctrinal axes to grind accept the idea of Nephites.

 

[Shimshon]

I end this discussion now!

just ignore him. his spiritual viewpoint appears to be counter missionary anyway.

Sometimes orthodoxy can seem like a snake eating it's tail. when that happens you must steer clear of the cycle. Or be devoured along with them.

 

[NannaNae]

put that stone down..

but I will tell you something you need to pray about.
yes any one who picks up stones in the next will be bound and thrown out.

but my crew can run around naked as jay birds and not be.
so you better get worried!

 

[Hoshiyya]

put that stone down..

but I will tell you something you need to pray about.
yes any one who picks up stones in the next will be bound and thrown out.

but my crew can run around naked as jay birds and not be.
so you better get worried!

You consider it a "stone" (attack by stones? stoning?) to point out that factually, the Vikings did go to America, and factually, the Israelites did not ?
If so, that's typical MG melodrama.

Assuming you don't specifically adress my posts, I will assume the exchange betwixt us is ended, even though you haven't adressed my main points (see previous page).

 

[rick357]

You consider it a "stone" (attack by stones? stoning?) to point out that factually, the Vikings did go to America, and factually, the Israelites did not ?
If so, that's typical MG melodrama.

Assuming you don't specifically adress my posts, I will assume the exchange betwixt us is ended, even though you haven't adressed my main points (see previous page).

Not to cause anymore MG melodrama but if you say you can show vikings and chinese could be Israelites then say vikings came to Amrica or else leave it as asians across the Bering Straits then are you not agreeing that her people are desendanta of Israel

Just saying your aurgument seems muddy.

 

[NannaNae]

many jews came to the new world and started telling natives they were jews long before Joseph Smith was born. they even made maps saying that these were " red jews" .. . but they were not jews they were Isreali 's mixed with sea people and Caananites .and some were here or left here from events which happened at the bronze age collapse.
and they couldn't get back to Israel after that. he planned it !
it is for their good.
and we will all know why he did it someday and soon enough.