truth of the "rapture"

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Are my posts invisible or something? :o

​

Nope! and i appreciate your sense of humour as always . lol .

Thks. You see my non-humorous side!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Thks. You see my non-humorous side!

 

[WailingWall]

This is apocalyptic language, and as such cannot be taken strictly literally. When people fail to understand and recognize apocalyptic language, taking it literally instead, all sorts of strange things happen.

Now, look at what Jesus actually says . . the WORLD will see Him when He comes to gather His elect.

What does dispensationalism teach? It teaches the world will NOT see Him, that it will be a secret coming, and the elect will just vanish leaving the world in confusion and chaos.

Jeus didn't teach what Dispensationalists teach. . .

Jesus is talking about the second coming there, the end. Not some secret thing. According to Jesus' words, the sun is going to stop shining, the moon stops giving her light, and stars fall - and EVERYONE sees Him. . .

So .. does dispensationalism teach that all this happens, the sun is going to stop shining, the moon stops giving her light, and stars fall - and EVERYONE sees Him, before the rapture?


No .. they teach the rapture happens first, though if we take Jesus' sequence of events the passage above, the "rapture" happens last.

So who is right? Jesus? or the Darby and the dispensationalists?


False teaching is false teaching.

Uhh..i was only pointing out that the Day of the Lord takes place after the trib period. I made no mention of a rapture. I know the 1Cor.15 is simply the gathering of Gods people to the 1000yr period of rest.

 

[Gnarwhal]

This whole rapture theology leads to mental depression I reckon. The folks that believe it think that the future will be much worse than the present so they have no incentive to work for a better future. They think God has it all planned out, first the Jews return to Palestine, then build a temple, then some Antichrist guy arises and then the USA and Russia and China and the Arabs have some huge war and everybody who doesn't get raptured suffers radiation burns and plagues and starvation and all sorts of horrible things and then the end comes.

It's such a depressing world view that I am surprised that those who hold it are not tempted to suicide ... no wait, some were weren't they? Jones town, the Branch Davidians, and probably some others I haven't heard about yet.

I reckon those Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's witnesses, and Dispensationalists, and all those folk who get all worked up about the signs of the times and end times and stuff are ripe for doom & gloom preaching.

I wonder if people get converted by being frightened into religion from all this rapture nonsense!

Absolutely!

I can vouch for that in two ways, first I used to be in that camp. I held all sorts of inane beliefs about what was happening and what would happen. I would frequent message boards and "news" websites that perpetuated every conspiracy theory under the sun, branding it as being something Christian. It was titillating to engage with it but it absolutely promoted a depressing and fatalistic worldview. Not to mention that it cultivated an absolute apathy towards creation itself because the line of reasoning follows that God would burn this present world to a crisp and thus it didn't matter how we treat it now (so let's litter and use all the crude oil we want!).

My mother-in-law is a prime example of how this deteriorates a persons life. She's delved deep into this stuff for well over a decade and it's left her in a state of mental, physical and emotional decay (not to mention her reputation has been shattered for many years). She's so far out there with her beliefs (which are all hinged on dispensationalism and Zionism) that she's actually exhibiting behaviors akin to Paranoid Personality Disorder and has been abusing prescription narcotics. The thing is, I'm convinced that her beliefs are actually the culprit for sending her into such a pit of despair. She holds such a poor view of the world and fails to see how God is restoring and redeeming all of creation unto himself through Christ and insists on only seeing conspiracy and malevolence.

I'm sure there are varying levels of this belief, I know my own parents believed in some form of futurist rapture for many years being the products of an evangelical environment, but they didn't show any of the horrid behavioral, emotional or mental effects. Largely because it was a tertiary issue at best. For my mother-in-law it's the crux of her entire faith. Essentially, the only reason she would share the gospel is because she fears so much, it's more that hoping they're saved from the "tribulation" than from sin.

Suffice it to say, I am deeply disturbed by this entire worldview.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by thereselittleflower This is apocalyptic language, and as such cannot be taken strictly literally. When people fail to understand and recognize apocalyptic language, taking it literally instead, all sorts of strange things happen.

Uhh..i was only pointing out that the Day of the Lord takes place after the trib period. I made no mention of a rapture.
I know the 1Cor.15 is simply the gathering of Gods people to the 1000yr period of rest.

Which then begs the question:

[I wish this poll thread was on GT ]

http://www.christianforums.com/t6813701-40/#post43541235
Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs [poll thread]

Before the 1000yrs

57 59.38%
During the 1000yrs

1 1.04%
After the 1000yrs

19 19.79%




.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Then call me a dum-dum, but call me a KJVO too!

I don't want to derail this thread, but if you're wondering why the KJVO movement ever got started, your post is a good example why.

(No offense now. Let's not take this to a personal level, please.)

You do know the KJV was translated by Anglicans , who believed in the Real Presence and did not belive in a pretrib rapture. Right?

 

[WailingWall]

Which then begs the question:

[I wish this poll thread was on GT ]

http://www.christianforums.com/t6813701-40/#post43541235
Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs [poll thread]

Before the 1000yrs

57 59.38%
During the 1000yrs

1 1.04%
After the 1000yrs

19 19.79%




.

Jesus BRINGS us there. In the twinkling of an eye.

 

[DeaconDean]

Old testament instances that happened only to two people . don't indicate what happens in the new testament .

Non sequitur, if you discount the OT, then you might as well throw out the entire OT and just have the 27 books of the NT.

And besides, what of the resurrected saints that arose after Jesus' resurrection?

Where did they go?

With Him, or back to the graves?

If they went with Him, then there is another instance of a "rapture" just like the one described by the Apostle Paul.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This whole rapture theology leads to mental depression I reckon. The folks that believe it think that the future will be much worse than the present so they have no incentive to work for a better future. They think God has it all planned out, first the Jews return to Palestine, then build a temple, then some Antichrist guy arises and then the USA and Russia and China and the Arabs have some huge war and everybody who doesn't get raptured suffers radiation burns and plagues and starvation and all sorts of horrible things and then the end comes.

It's such a depressing world view that I am surprised that those who hold it are not tempted to suicide ... no wait, some were weren't they? Jones town, the Branch Davidians, and probably some others I haven't heard about yet.

I reckon those Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's witnesses, and Dispensationalists, and all those folk who get all worked up about the signs of the times and end times and stuff are ripe for doom & gloom preaching.

I wonder if people get converted by being frightened into religion from all this rapture nonsense!

I see it a bit differently, Dispensationalism is undercut by a strong sense of escapism, which breeds a certain sort of apathy. A consistent thing I hear, which agrees largely with your points here, is that why should we bother with striving toward peace in the Middle East, or why bother with working toward a greener, more environmentally friendly tomorrow? After all, it's all going to hit the fan in a couple years anyway, or conversely it is part of God's ordained "prophetic timetable" that everything is happening the way it is in the Middle East and so forth.

What makes that all the more dangerous is when it becomes a political lobbying effort to influence policy.

But perhaps even more dangerous is that it breeds that kind of apathy. The normal standards of Christian behavior and work set forth by our Lord in, for example, the Sermon on the Mount is set aside for a new behavioral ethic. Why confess "Blessed are the peace-makers" when we can be in quiet relish the violence in the Middle East? Why bother with "Love thy enemy" when we can condemn the enemy-other and view entire groups of people who are religiously and ethnically different than ourselves as part of an escalating spiritual war which we must fight, in part, with the tools of war?

The whole environment is toxic. And there is no sign of actual Gospel at all in the whole mix.

With all due respect to our Dispensationalist brothers and sisters, I have a very difficult time not seeing the whole Dispensationalist scheme, mixed with Evangelical politics, as one of the greatest messes in modern Christian history.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Non sequitur, if you discount the OT, then you might as well throw out the entire OT and just have the 27 books of the NT.

And besides, what of the resurrected saints that arose after Jesus' resurrection?

Where did they go?

With Him, or back to the graves?

If they went with Him, then there is another instance of a "rapture" just like the one described by the Apostle Paul.

God Bless

Till all are one.

As far as I know, Scripture doesn't tell us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Which then begs the question:

[I wish this poll thread was on GT ]

http://www.christianforums.com/t6813.../#post43541235
Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs [poll thread]

​

Jesus BRINGS us there. In the twinkling of an eye.

I can hang with that!




.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Shocking isn't it - to substitute some theory about end-times for the preaching of the gospel in the hope that one can recruit members for one's religious group because they are too frightened to stay outside - it's a real shame.

It actually changes the gospel itself.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Uhh..i was only pointing out that the Day of the Lord takes place after the trib period. I made no mention of a rapture. I know the 1Cor.15 is simply the gathering of Gods people to the 1000yr period of rest.

Well yes I agree it takes place after the tribulation period. The tribulatioin period began with the apostles and continues to this day.

There is no 1000 year period of rest. Our rest is eternal.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Non sequitur, if you discount the OT, then you might as well throw out the entire OT and just have the 27 books of the NT.

And besides, what of the resurrected saints that arose after Jesus' resurrection?

Where did they go?

With Him, or back to the graves?

If they went with Him, then there is another instance of a "rapture" just like the one described by the Apostle Paul.

God Bless

Till all are one.

What are you trying to prove with the elijah enoch example?


Are you trying to say that because Enoch and Elijah were translated that Darby's teachings about the rapture are true?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Something I'd like to challenge altogether is the assumption that "the rapture" mentioned in St. Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians refers to our being taken into heaven.

That isn't what the text says, that is an assumption by reading the text with a particular theological lens. What it says is that we are caught up ("raptured") to meet the returning Lord Jesus in the air. What should catch our attention is that this passage is talking about the Parousia, our Lord's return. Consistently when Scripture talks about our Lord's future Parousia it is about His coming here.

When St. Paul says, "so we shall ever be with the Lord", what does He mean? It would seem to me that what the Apostle indicates is where our Lord is, we shall be. Is that "in heaven"? Or is that here on terra firma? Since our Lord comes, subjecting all things to the Father, to judge the quick and the dead, and to renew and restore all things--why do we presume that we are going all the way up, as opposed to meeting, welcoming the returning, and victorious Lord Christ who comes to do all these things--and then to be with Him always.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[WailingWall]

And besides, what of the resurrected saints that arose after Jesus' resurrection?

Where did they go?

With Him, or back to the graves?

If they went with Him, then there is another instance of a "rapture" just like the one described by the Apostle Paul.

Yeah, ive always wondered bout that

Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for us

MARK 9 [1] And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY HAVE SEEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD come with power.[2] AND AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.[3] And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.[4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.[5] And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.[6] For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.[7] And there was A CLOUD THAT OVERSHADOWED THEM: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Elias and Moses are found here. Just keep in mind that a day is as a thousand yrs.

6 days=6 thousand yrs

1 day= 1000yr period of rest

ISAIAH 4 [3] And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:[4] When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by THE SPIRIT OF JUDGMENT, AND BY THE SPIRIT OF BURNING.[5] And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, A CLOUD AND SMOKE BY DAY, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all THE GLORY shall be a defence.[6] And there shall be a TABERNACLE FOR A SHADOW in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from

Boy am i having trouble making a point

Sorry bout that

Kinda hard to follow

 

[thereselittleflower]

Something I'd like to challenge altogether is the assumption that "the rapture" mentioned in St. Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians refers to our being taken into heaven.

That isn't what the text says, that is an assumption by reading the text with a particular theological lens. What it says is that we are caught up ("raptured") to meet the returning Lord Jesus in the air. What should catch our attention is that this passage is talking about the Parousia, our Lord's return. Consistently when Scripture talks about our Lord's future Parousia it is about His coming here.

When St. Paul says, "so we shall ever be with the Lord", what does He mean? It would seem to me that what the Apostle indicates is where our Lord is, we shall be. Is that "in heaven"? Or is that here on terra firma? Since our Lord comes, subjecting all things to the Father, to judge the quick and the dead, and to renew and restore all things--why do we presume that we are going all the way up, as opposed to meeting, welcoming the returning, and victorious Lord Christ who comes to do all these things--and then to be with Him always.

-CryptoLutheran

When you look at all the other scritpures teaching the second coming, the earth is burned up, the sky rolled back, the sun and moon go dark, the stars fall . . .there is no longer an earth.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Something I'd like to challenge altogether is the assumption that "the rapture" mentioned in St. Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians refers to our being taken into heaven.

That isn't what the text says, that is an assumption by reading the text with a particular theological lens. What it says is that we are caught up ("raptured") to meet the returning Lord Jesus in the air. What should catch our attention is that this passage is talking about the Parousia, our Lord's return. Consistently when Scripture talks about our Lord's future Parousia it is about His coming here.

When St. Paul says, "so we shall ever be with the Lord", what does He mean? It would seem to me that what the Apostle indicates is where our Lord is, we shall be. Is that "in heaven"? Or is that here on terra firma? Since our Lord comes, subjecting all things to the Father, to judge the quick and the dead, and to renew and restore all things--why do we presume that we are going all the way up, as opposed to meeting, welcoming the returning, and victorious Lord Christ who comes to do all these things--and then to be with Him always.

-CryptoLutheran

The passage is obviously and clearly about the second coming and resurrection and judgement. That's why it is couched in terms as comfort concerning those who have died and hope for those who are alive when Jesus returns,

But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
​

Folk who want a rapture and a bunch of their friends and family to be 'left behind' to suffer the great tribulation are not paying attention.

 

[ViaCrucis]

When you look at all the other scritpures teaching the second coming, the earth is burned up, the sky rolled back, the sun and moon go dark, the stars fall . . .there is no longer an earth.

Sure, but then again, that's apocalyptic language.

Are we talking about the universe being erased from existence, or rather the renewal of creation? I would argue the latter. For example St. Peter says the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire--is the fire to erase everything, or to purge and purify the earth with judgment? Again, I would argue the latter.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gnarwhal]

Sure, but then again, that's apocalyptic language.

Are we talking about the universe being erased from existence, or rather the renewal of creation? I would argue the latter. For example St. Peter says the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire--is the fire to erase everything, or to purge and purify the earth with judgment? Again, I would argue the latter.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed. The idea that the Earth will be literally burned away is ancient stoicism.

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