truth of the "rapture"

[ViaCrucis]

What are you trying to show with the dialogue with Trypho? Nothing in the text that you cited addresses chiliasm? Justin Martyr was a chiliast.

Justin recognizes that his view isn't the lone view. Demonstrating that, at the very least, Chiliasm wasn't the view of "all" Christians of the first couple hundred years, as your post implied.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by thereselittleflower "I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch 80

Originally Posted by Hentenza What are you trying to show with the dialogue with Trypho? Nothing in the text that you cited addresses chiliasm? Justin Martyr was a chiliast.

Justin recognizes that his view isn't the lone view. Demonstrating that, at the very least, Chiliasm wasn't the view of "all" Christians of the first couple hundred years, as your post implied.

-CryptoLutheran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiliasm

Premillennialism

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This article is about Premillennialism in Christian eschatology. For other uses, see Millenarianism.


Premillennialism in Christian eschatology is the belief that Jesus Christ will literally and physically be on the earth for his millennial reign at his second coming. The doctrine is called premillennialism because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium.
It is distinct from the other forms of Christian eschatology such as postmillennialism or amillennialism, which view the millennial rule as occurring either before the second coming, or as being figurative and non-temporal..

Historically Christian premillennialism has also been referred as "chiliasm" or "millenarianism". The theological term "premillennialism" did not come into general use until the mid-19th century, the modern period in which premillennialism was revived.
Coining the word was "almost entirely the work of British and American Protestants and was prompted by their belief that the French and American Revolutions (the French, especially) realized prophecies made in the books of Daniel and Revelation."[1]

The proponents of Amillennialism interpret the Millennium as being a symbolic period of time, consistent with the highly symbolic nature of the apocalyptic genre of the book of Revelation, sometimes indicating that the thousand years represent God's rule over his creation or the Church.
Premillennialism is often used to refer specifically to those who adhere to the beliefs in an earthly millennial reign of Christ as well as a rapture of the faithful coming before (dispensational) or after (historic) the tribulation preceding the millennium.
Post-millennialism, for example, agrees with premillennialism about the future earthly reign of Christ, but disagrees on the concept of a rapture and tribulation before the Millennium begins. Postmillennialists hold to the view that the second coming will happen after the Millennium.








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[thereselittleflower]

What are you trying to show with the dialogue with Trypho? Nothing in the text that you cited addresses chiliasm? Justin Martyr was a chiliast.

That text IS about chiliasm. That you even question this leads me to wonder if you have ever even read his Dialogue with Trypho.

"CHAPTER LXXX -- THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS. SEVERAL CATHOLICS REJECT IT"

That's what Justin Martyr is talking about Hentenza. . The text is about chiliasm, his beliefs, and stating it is not the view of many others - that thre are many who are of pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, who think otherwise.

Why are you ignoring the plain words of Justin Martyr which clearly demonstrate the Church was not chiliast, just that some were and it was not in any way, shape or form, agreed with or accepted in the Church as a whole? And this in the second century?

 

[Stryder06]

Unfortunately that's true, and as a result, they lobby to bring about their version of end times events, using politics to push issues in the middle east to a breaking point so that they can have their "7 year tribulation" and armegeddon.

It is the most dangerous belief system to our world today. It threatens to throw us into WWWIII through a self fulfilling prophecy that has nothing to do with God.

It is not for naught the Catholic Church identifies political millenialism as the most dangerous of heresies.

Given that the Catholic church has no offical stance on eschatology, how can it declare anyone's theories to be incorrect?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee J. N. Darby invented a lot of things that are commonly believed among evangelicals in the USA today.

Originally Posted by thereselittleflower Unfortunately that's true, and as a result, they lobby to bring about their version of end times events, using politics to push issues in the middle east to a breaking point so that they can have their "7 year tribulation" and armegeddon.

It is the most dangerous belief system to our world today. It threatens to throw us into WWWIII through a self fulfilling prophecy that has nothing to do with God.

It is not for naught the Catholic Church identifies political millenialism as the most dangerous of heresies.

Given that the Catholic church has no offical stance on eschatology, how can it declare anyone's theories to be incorrect?

Ahhh, but they do!
I believe they are of the "Amill" view if I am not mistaken [which would be fairly close to my view].

[I myself hold to the "Preterist" view ]

Yes a "pre-trib rapture", it is seen as a recent invention of history.

here is a great article on our position

The Rapture | Catholic Answers

http://www.christianforums.com/t7348339/
Catholic view of the end-times

I see that on our profiles at CF, we get to choose our 'endtimes' views. Which one is Catholic? I'm having some trouble figuring it out...

I know that the Church teaches Amilleninialism - which I put in bold. What about the other ones? Is it... historic, preterist, or futurist? Pretribulation, midtribulationm, posttribulation? hmm...

aren't we partial preterists?? (but here they don't make the distinction between 'full' and 'partial')

what about the tribulation? Does the Church teach that we'll be here for that - no rapture.. right?

So many names LOL

"Choose options that best describes your beliefs regarding endtimes.
Historic
Preterist
Futurist

Amillennialism
Premillennialism
Postmillennialism

Pretribulation
Midtribulation
Posttribulation"

http://www.christianforums.com/t1769080-5/#post16393158
How do Catholics feel about the rapture?

I bring this up, because the more I look into this particular doctrine, the less valid it seems. From what I gather so far, it's something slapped together by some fundamentalist Christians 100 or so years ago and doesn't seem to have much biblical backing.

Ps: Before responding, please keep in mind, up until a short time ago, I just accepted the rapture as fact.
You know, the way I used to accept as fact, that you all worshipped a young Jewish girl named Mary?

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[Gregory Thompson]

Like in the Star Gate television series?

Well it's just like how its taught in evangelical circles .. except aliens come to snatch people away from oppressive human governments instead of Jesus .

If its "not in the bible" and "infiltrated the church from outside" what happened to Enoch and Elijah?

"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." -Gen 5:24 (KJV)

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." -2 Kgs. 2:11 (KJV)

Is that not a "rapture" (i.e.: catching away as Paul puts it)?

One of the tenantws of Protestantism is "justification by faith".

Just because something wasn't taught specifically 2000 years ago, does not make it heresy.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Old testament instances that happened only to two people . don't indicate what happens in the new testament .

 

[Gnarwhal]

Like in the Star Gate television series?

I just blacked out... The Stargate franchise is my all-time favorite!

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee Like in the Star Gate television series?

Well it's just like how its taught in evangelical circles .. except aliens come to snatch people away from oppressive human governments instead of Jesus .

.

Blondie - Rapture - YouTube

 

[thereselittleflower]

Given that the Catholic church has no offical stance on eschatology, how can it declare anyone's theories to be incorrect?

Because wrong teaching is wrong teaching. The Church does not take a definitive stand only on some aspects of eschatology. She has on others. One of those stands was to cearly spell out that millinarianism in all its forms is false teaching.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I just blacked out... The Stargate franchise is my all-time favorite!

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Love Stargate Just watched the movie again the other day. Just as good as it was the first time.

 

[thereselittleflower]

You know sister, I haven't seen you around in a while, and I'm kinda glad your back. And I was wondering how long it was gonna take before you singled me out for one of my posts.

Anyway, good to see you back.

Well thank you for the welcome back, but I didn't single you out by simply responding to you

Good to see you too by the way

I never said that what happened to Enoch or Elijah had anything to do with John Nelson Darby.





I merely stated that a "rapture" of sorts has already happened in the examples of:

1. Enoch
2. Elijah
3. The Resurrected Saints of Mt. 27:52

If I take your word for it, after a certain period of time, God quit revealing anything.

Part of the point I have made before is that Darby took the word "rapture" (which is from the Latin) and then developed a whole teaching around it that was an innovation, a novelty, and way off the mark from any doctrine of the Church, including East, West and Protestant. It is like any other false teaching that separates itself from established Christian doctrine in the deposit of faith from the Apostles.

But because he hijacked that word "rapture" now when people talk about it, most of the time they are talking about his teaching, and dispenationalist ideas , rather than the simple word.

So .. I was addressing the fact that while they were translated, and this corresponds to Paul saying how we who are alive at the resurrection will be also translated, caught up, changed, this does not at all correspond to Darby's teaching or dispensationalist ideas of the rapture, it's timing, it's meaning, etc, etc, etc.

As a Baptist, justification by Faith, a tenant of Baptist views, is a realitively new "revelation", and according to some its almost heresy.

If it excludes other elements for our faith, then yes, it is in error.

Yet it was almost unheard of until the 1500's. And now, its widely accepted.

Well two things. First, just because something is widely accepted does not make it correct.

Second, what is widely accepted? Baptists and those who beileve as they do about justification by faith, are a minority in christianity . So I would not agree the way baptists look at justification by faith is widely accepted among christiains.

So just because it was revealed specifically at a certain period of time, don't mean a thing.

And here is where we very much disagree. Everything needed for our faith was given to us through the apostles. The scriptures even attest to that.

Changes to those truths are changes, not something newly revealed by God. God does not contradict Himself. Deeper undertanding of a truth is one thing. Denying some truths and changing others is quite another.

And the fact is, Enoch and Elijah were "raptured", "being caught up" by God.

God Bless

Till all are one.

And if we call what happened to them being "raptured" this does nothing to make the dispensationalist view of the rapture and all it implies valid. So I am not sure what the point of bringing up Enoch and Elijah is?

 

[thereselittleflower]

MATTHEW 24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, and THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Right AFTER the tribulation period the sun shall be darkened and the moon wont be shining.

JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.

In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord

Do the math. The Day of the Lord does not begin till the tribulation period is over

This is apocalyptic language, and as such cannot be taken strictly literally. When people fail to understand and recognize apocalyptic language, taking it literally instead, all sorts of strange things happen.

Now, look at what Jesus actually says . . the WORLD will see Him when He comes to gather His elect.

What does dispensationalism teach? It teaches the world will NOT see Him, that it will be a secret coming, and the elect will just vanish leaving the world in confusion and chaos.

Jeus didn't teach what Dispensationalists teach. . .

Jesus is talking about the second coming there, the end. Not some secret thing. According to Jesus' words, the sun is going to stop shining, the moon stops giving her light, and stars fall - and EVERYONE sees Him. . .

So .. does dispensationalism teach that all this happens, the sun is going to stop shining, the moon stops giving her light, and stars fall - and EVERYONE sees Him, before the rapture?


No .. they teach the rapture happens first, though if we take Jesus' sequence of events the passage above, the "rapture" happens last.

So who is right? Jesus? or the Darby and the dispensationalists?


False teaching is false teaching.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are my posts invisible or something? :o


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[thereselittleflower]

I'll not get into this with you.

Like I said, I was merely pointing out that a "rapture", "being caught up" has already happened as recored in the scriptures.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The question I have though, which I am scratching my head over, is what was the purpose of pointing that out in the context of this discussion?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Are my posts invisible or something? :o


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Not at all

 

[MoreCoffee]

This whole rapture theology leads to mental depression I reckon. The folks that believe it think that the future will be much worse than the present so they have no incentive to work for a better future. They think God has it all planned out, first the Jews return to Palestine, then build a temple, then some Antichrist guy arises and then the USA and Russia and China and the Arabs have some huge war and everybody who doesn't get raptured suffers radiation burns and plagues and starvation and all sorts of horrible things and then the end comes.

It's such a depressing world view that I am surprised that those who hold it are not tempted to suicide ... no wait, some were weren't they? Jones town, the Branch Davidians, and probably some others I haven't heard about yet.

I reckon those Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's witnesses, and Dispensationalists, and all those folk who get all worked up about the signs of the times and end times and stuff are ripe for doom & gloom preaching.

I wonder if people get converted by being frightened into religion from all this rapture nonsense!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Are my posts invisible or something? :o


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Nope! and i appreciate your sense of humour as always . lol .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This whole rapture theology leads to mental depression I reckon. The folks that believe it think that the future will be much worse than the present so they have no incentive to work for a better future. They think God has it all planned out, first the Jews return to Palestine, then build a temple, then some Antichrist guy arises and then the USA and Russia and China and the Arabs have some huge war and everybody who doesn't get raptured suffers radiation burns and plagues and starvation and all sorts of horrible things and then the end comes.

It's such a depressing world view that I am surprised that those who hold it are not tempted to suicide ... no wait, some were weren't they? Jones town, the Branch Davidians, and probably some others I haven't heard about yet.

I reckon those Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's witnesses, and Dispensationalists, and all those folk who get all worked up about the signs of the times and end times and stuff are ripe for doom & gloom preaching.

I wonder if people get converted by being frightened into religion from all this rapture nonsense!

I thought that was the whole hook to the sales pitch gospel?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I thought that was the whole hook to the sales pitch gospel?

Shocking isn't it - to substitute some theory about end-times for the preaching of the gospel in the hope that one can recruit members for one's religious group because they are too frightened to stay outside - it's a real shame.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Shocking isn't it - to substitute some theory about end-times for the preaching of the gospel in the hope that one can recruit members for one's religious group because they are too frightened to stay outside - it's a real shame.

Yah . since they can never be complete in the Love God is .. while they hold onto that fear. truly truly the love of money is a root of all evil.