truth of the "rapture"

[DeaconDean]

Something I'd like to challenge altogether is the assumption that "the rapture" mentioned in St. Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians refers to our being taken into heaven.

That isn't what the text says, that is an assumption by reading the text with a particular theological lens. What it says is that we are caught up ("raptured") to meet the returning Lord Jesus in the air. What should catch our attention is that this passage is talking about the Parousia, our Lord's return. Consistently when Scripture talks about our Lord's future Parousia it is about His coming here.

When St. Paul says, "so we shall ever be with the Lord", what does He mean? It would seem to me that what the Apostle indicates is where our Lord is, we shall be. Is that "in heaven"? Or is that here on terra firma? Since our Lord comes, subjecting all things to the Father, to judge the quick and the dead, and to renew and restore all things--why do we presume that we are going all the way up, as opposed to meeting, welcoming the returning, and victorious Lord Christ who comes to do all these things--and then to be with Him always.

-CryptoLutheran

Tell me something, which version of the Lord's return described by Paul is the correct one?

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" -1 Thes. 4:16 (KJV)

Or:

"Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" -2 Thes. 1:7-8 (KJV)

Perhaps John's vision was the correct one:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." -Rev. 19:11 (KJV)

So tell me, if the disciples standing on the side of Lake Galilee were told by angels that as you saw him go, he will return in the same fashion", direct me to scripture where Jesus ascended up into heaven, "in flaming fire taking vengence on them tha know not God" or direct me to scripture that shows Jesus ascended up into heaven riding/sitting upon a white horse.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sure, but then again, that's apocalyptic language.

Are we talking about the universe being erased from existence, or rather the renewal of creation? I would argue the latter. For example St. Peter says the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire--is the fire to erase everything, or to purge and purify the earth with judgment? Again, I would argue the latter.

-CryptoLutheran

Did Jesus return to heaven and tell the Apostles though they could not go with Him yet, that where He was going He was going to prepare a place for them and then they would be joining Him there?

Where else do you think He was referring to?

The apocalyptic language of the eath burning up, etc, is referring to something real - it is referring to the end of this world.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Tell me something, which version of the Lord's return described by Paul is the correct one?

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" -1 Thes. 4:16 (KJV)

Or:

"Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" -2 Thes. 1:7-8 (KJV)

Perhaps John's vision was the correct one:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." -Rev. 19:11 (KJV)

So tell me, if the disciples standing on the side of Lake Galilee were told by angels that as you saw him go, he will return in the same fashion", direct me to scripture where Jesus ascended up into heaven, "in flaming fire taking vengence on them tha know not God" or direct me to scripture that shows Jesus ascended up into heaven riding/sitting upon a white horse.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You didn't give full quotes:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" -1 Thes. 4:16
​

This is Judgment Day

2Th 1:7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
2Th 1:8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
​

This is Judgment Day . .

Revelation is apocalyptic literature and so is highly symoblic and is about the ultimate triumph of God and the Church over evil and sin.

 

[DeaconDean]

You didn't give full quotes:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" -1 Thes. 4:16
​

This is Judgment Day

2Th 1:7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
2Th 1:8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
​

This is Judgment Day . .

Revelation is apocalyptic literature and so is highly symoblic and is about the ultimate triumph of God and the Church over evil and sin.

Here again, according to all that has been said, at His return judgment begins.

So what if the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ has symbolism, why or what dictakes that I can't take some or all of it literally?

So once again, I put forth the question:

So tell me, if the disciples standing on the side of Lake Galilee were told by angels that as you saw him go, he will return in the same fashion", direct me to scripture where Jesus ascended up into heaven, "in flaming fire taking vengence on them tha know not God" or direct me to scripture that shows Jesus ascended up into heaven riding/sitting upon a white horse.

Why must everyone back-pedle on this, show me where Jesus ascended up in flaming fire or siting on a white horse.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Did Jesus return to heaven and tell the Apostles though they could not go with Him yet, that where He was going He was going to prepare a place for them and then they would be joining Him there?

Where else do you think He was referring to?

The apocalyptic language of the eath burning up, etc, is referring to something real - it is referring to the end of this world.

I don't think "where" is monumentally important, since He says "where I am, there you will be also", it's not a matter of spatial coordinates, but rather of reigning and present with Him.

Christ, reigning at the right hand of the Father, has made us members of God's house, the household of faith, the Church. By virtue of our Baptism in which we have been born again and clothed with Jesus Christ our Savior.

We are His, and He is ours. By the grace of God.

Let's remember what St. Peter had said on His Pentecost sermon, when he quotes Joel the Prophet. We remember that the Prophet said the Spirit would be poured on all flesh, but that same prophet says the sun will go dark (etc)--St. Peter refers to this statement by the prophet as coming to pass then and there on Pentecost.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why must everyone back-pedle on this, show me where Jesus ascended up in flaming fire or siting on a white horse.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Because we're not back peddling, we just don't see the need to stretch and strain the Scriptures in order to make it say something it never says.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[DeaconDean]

With all that the disciples saw and or learned for our Lord, and after being told what they were by the angels, it would be likely that they would forget, not even mention that Jesus ascended up into heaven in flaming fire or sitting/riding on a white horse?

Yea...right.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Because we're not back peddling, we just don't see the need to stretch and strain the Scriptures in order to make it say something it never says.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not streching either.

I quoted scripture right from the bible.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ViaCrucis]

With all that the disciples saw and or learned for our Lord, and after being told what they were by the angels, it would be likely that they would forget, not even mention that Jesus ascended up into heaven in flaming fire or sitting/riding on a white horse?

Yea...right.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Are you suggesting that there are celestial steeds and that our Lord will, literally, return riding upon one of these creatures?

Seems to me that the language of the white horse is symbolic of coming in victory. Otherwise we'd also imagine that our Lord has a metal blade for a tongue, and then we're entertaining the utterly ridiculous.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MoreCoffee]

Are you suggesting that there are celestial steeds and that our Lord will, literally, return riding upon one of these creatures?

Seems to me that the language of the white horse is symbolic of coming in victory. Otherwise we'd also imagine that our Lord has a metal blade for a tongue, and then we're entertaining the utterly ridiculous.

-CryptoLutheran

Don't forget him being a lamb with seven eyes and stuff like that

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm not streching either.

I quoted scripture right from the bible.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The stretching is in requiring that in order for what the angels said in Acts 1 to be true, it requires that Jesus have rode to heaven on a white steed as depicted in St. John's Apocalypse.

Rather than allowing apocalyptic language to be apocalyptic language, it is requiring overly literal readings where they aren't intended in order to create a theological doctrine not found in Scripture itself, but somehow found "in between the lines".

Which is kind of the problem. The idea of a double Parousia cannot be ascertained by the plain teaching of Scripture, but requires to bend, contort, and try and read between the lines in order to develop a new doctrine out of whole cloth.

That isn't how exegesis is done, that's how eisegesis is done. And eisegesis always means rotten theology.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[DeaconDean]

Are you suggesting that there are celestial steeds and that our Lord will, literally, return riding upon one of these creatures?

Seems to me that the language of the white horse is symbolic of coming in victory. Otherwise we'd also imagine that our Lord has a metal blade for a tongue, and then we're entertaining the utterly ridiculous.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok, lets say for arguments sake, that this is symbolic.

Show me where in scripture Jesus ascended up into heaven "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" -2 Thes. 1:7-9 (KJV)

Where did Jesus ascend up in flaming fire, taking vengence, punishing with everlasting destruction?

Show me this in scripture.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

That isn't how exegesis is done, that's how eisegesis is done. And eisegesis always means rotten theology.

-CryptoLutheran

You do know that I could very well say the same thing about your interpretation.

But I'm not.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Don't forget him being a lamb with seven eyes and stuff like that

I got 1 eye on you bub

.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ok, lets say for arguments sake, that this is symbolic.

Show me where in scripture Jesus ascended up into heaven "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" -2 Thes. 1:7-9 (KJV)

Where did Jesus ascend up in flaming fire, taking vengence, punishing with everlasting destruction?

Show me this in scripture.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Why does our Lord need to ascend in flaming fire, taking vengeance, punishing with everlasting destruction in order for this statement to be true of His Parousia?

All that is necessary is that He come again, as the angels said, comforting the gathered apostles at His ascension.

Because, at this point, I could just as equally ask where did Jesus, when He ascended, raise the dead and catching up the saints--which is what St. Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

So this line of argumentation doesn't ultimately help you anyway.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You do know that I could very well say the same thing about your interpretation.

But I'm not.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You could. There's certainly nothing ad hom. about the language I employed. Certainly not intentionally. Just an observation that bad hermeneutics means bad theology. Eisegesis is not how we are to "do" theology.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[DeaconDean]

Why does our Lord need to ascend in flaming fire, taking vengeance, punishing with everlasting destruction in order for this statement to be true of His Parousia?

All that is necessary is that He come again, as the angels said, comforting the gathered apostles at His ascension.

Because, at this point, I could just as equally ask where did Jesus, when He ascended, raise the dead and catching up the saints--which is what St. Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

So this line of argumentation doesn't ultimately help you anyway.

-CryptoLutheran

Here again, ascending and coming back are different matters.

Yet the angels said nothing of believers being caught up at the ascention.

I will give the Catholic church some credit, they were right when they taught that angels are messengers, sent from God.

If sent from God, can angels lie?

Yet the angels told them as you saw Him go, He will return in like manner.

We didn't see Him go with a body of believers, yet we are told in several places of His return and in two places we are told exactly what would happen, and it does not fit with what angels said.

Either the angels lied, Paul lied, John lied, or scriptures lie.

If the scriptures lied, then they are not worth the papyrus they were written on. We mifght as well pick up a copy of Moby Dick and call that our bible.

Yet it was important enought that God sent angels to tell the disciples about Jesus ascention, but yet it does not match up with Paul's version in 2 Thes. 1:7-9 or John's version in Rev. 19:11.

You've convinced me, I'll get me a copy of Moby Dick and begin to preach that.

Its as reliable as scriptures.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I got 1 eye on you bub

.

Looks like a gammy eye.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Here again, according to all that has been said, at His return judgment begins.

So what if the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ has symbolism, why or what dictakes that I can't take some or all of it literally?

The apocalyptic genre dictates whether you can rightfully take all or some of it literally or not.

If you don't understand the type of book you are reading, then you're going to walk away with a lot of wrong ideas.

So once again, I put forth the question:

Why must everyone back-pedle on this, show me where Jesus ascended up in flaming fire or siting on a white horse.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You are taking the language too literally forcing an interpretation and thus a requirement that doesn't really exist.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Ok, lets say for arguments sake, that this is symbolic.

Show me where in scripture Jesus ascended up into heaven "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" -2 Thes. 1:7-9 (KJV)

Where did Jesus ascend up in flaming fire, taking vengence, punishing with everlasting destruction?

Show me this in scripture.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You are simply taking "in like manner" too far to an extreme and trying to make in envelop more than the simple fact Jesus ascended into heaven. That's all. It does not take into account how things looked, etc.

It simple means He Ascended and He will come back the same way, in the clouds .. . In other words, He won't appear somewhere on earth teachign again, he won't be in the wilderness, he won't be in the city, He won't be born a baby again . . .

He will appear in the clouds and that's the limit if its meaning. . it doesn't seek to deal with any other issues like you are trying to force onto it.