truth of the "rapture"

[Stryder06]

Because wrong teaching is wrong teaching. The Church does not take a definitive stand only on some aspects of eschatology. She has on others. One of those stands was to cearly spell out that millinarianism in all its forms is false teaching.

Mind you I don't believe in the rapture but that's only because I believe that teaching is contrary to what the scriptures say about the return of Christ. That's why I can say it's wrong. If your church has no offical teaching on the events surrounding the second coming, how can it say with any certainty that XYZ theory is wrong?

Many people don't take "Because we say so" to be a valid answer either.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Mind you I don't believe in the rapture but that's only because I believe that teaching is contrary to what the scriptures say about the return of Christ. That's why I can say it's wrong. If your church has no offical teaching on the events surrounding the second coming, how can it say with any certainty that XYZ theory is wrong?

Many people don't take "Because we say so" to be a valid answer either.

The Church does have official teaching.

 

[Stryder06]

Well yes I agree it takes place after the tribulation period. The tribulatioin period began with the apostles and continues to this day.

There is no 1000 year period of rest. Our rest is eternal.

Strange that the bible says otherwise

 

[Stryder06]

The Church does have official teaching.

Really?! That's great! I've asked around and all of the Catholics who participate regularly told me that there is no "offical" Catholic teaching on endtime events (specifically Daniel & Revelation). Can you please tell me what they are, or even point me in the direction of an offical statement?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Strange that the bible says otherwise

The bible doesn't say there is a literal 1000 years anything.

Where do you think the bible speaks of a literal 1000 years?

Revelation? That is an apocalyptic book full of symbolism and one of its greatest symbolic features are its use of numbers. 1000 is a symbolic number respresenting a very, very long time.

Show me where else you think in scriipture the phrase "a thousand years" is used.

 

[Stryder06]

The bible doesn't say there is a literal 1000 years anything.

Where do you think the bible speaks of a literal 1000 years?

Revelation? That is an apocalyptic book full of symbolism and one of its greatest symbolic features are its use of numbers. 1000 is a symbolic number respresenting a very, very long time.

Show me where else you think in scriipture the phrase "a thousand years" is used.

The "Revelation is an Apocalytpic book" excuse is getting old. No offense. What makes you think it's talking about an indefinite period of time? Not every prophetic books is devoid of literal teachings. Is Jesus' return in Revelation literal or is that just symbolic of a futuristic happy time? Is the destruction of the wicked (all inclusive) literal or symbolic?

Prophecy foretells of a time when the earth will be empty, hence the "rest" that will last one thousand years.

 

[Koakku]

The bible doesn't say there is a literal 1000 years anything.

Where do you think the bible speaks of a literal 1000 years?

Revelation? That is an apocalyptic book full of symbolism and one of its greatest symbolic features are its use of numbers. 1000 is a symbolic number respresenting a very, very long time.

Show me where else you think in scriipture the phrase "a thousand years" is used.

Just because some things in the book of revelations is full of symbolism does not mean the whole entire thing is symbolic and that your only counter to it is that it's full of symbolism, some things in the book of revelations is fairly understandable and mentioned in other parts of the bible such as the harvest and the judgement.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The "Revelation is an Apocalytpic book" excuse is getting old. ...

Old, in fact ancient, and oh so true. You may prefer a more recent prophet - Ellen White, for example - but the truth is the truth no matter what names you use to denigrate it.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Really?! That's great! I've asked around and all of the Catholics who participate regularly told me that there is no "offical" Catholic teaching on endtime events (specifically Daniel & Revelation). Can you please tell me what they are, or even point me in the direction of an offical statement?

Well, wait a minute, you didn't specifiy end time events in daniel and revelation - first, that assumes we agree with you that there are end time events as you see them in those books.

Would you like to show me what you are referring to exactly in Daniel?

 

[Stryder06]

Old, in fact ancient, and oh so true. You may prefer a more recent prophet - Ellen White, for example - but the truth is the truth no matter what names you use to denigrate it.

You and Python's must be cousins if not brothers Who mentioned anything about preference of prophets? I said that the excuse was old, which it is. You excuse your ignorance in regards to what the books of Daniel and Revelation say, and then turn around and dismiss anyone's explanation that you disagree with because "it's full of symbolism".

I do agree with you though that the truth is the truth. Of course, it's hard to say what the truth is when you don't have an offical teaching on it isn't it? How can your church say what is and isn't true if it doesn't even know?

 

[Stryder06]

Well, wait a minute, you didn't specifiy end time events in daniel and revelation - first, that assumes we agree with you that there are end time events as you see them in those books.

Would you like to show me what you are referring to exactly in Daniel?

Sorry, I'm not referencing anything particularly from Daniel. It's just that a ton of symbolism in Revelation can't be understood if you don't understand Daniel.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You and Python's must be cousins if not brothers Who mentioned anything about preference of prophets?...

You did, of course, every word about end times that you post is a word brought to us by Ellen White - prophet of Seventh Day Adventism.

 

[Stryder06]

You did, of course, every word about end times that you post is a word brought to us by Ellen White - prophet of Seventh Day Adventism.

Your assumptions are identical as well . Even IF my words were from Sr White, you say it to me as if it's something I should be ashamed of. You're the one who has a problem with her, not me. Her view of eschatology came from the reformers before her who WEREN'T Adventist, but that's a story for another thread.

And you have NO idea how much or how little of her writings I've ever read. Either way, I'd rather stick with her, than with your Catechism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

... Even IF my words were from Sr White, you say it to me as if it's something I should be ashamed of. ...

It's something you ought to be up front about. She's the whole reason for Seventh Day Adventists believing that Daniel & Revelation inter-mesh as some kind of apocalyptic picture book with bits from Daniel setting the time table for the beginning times of bits in Revelation. The whole 2,300 days and 1844 and investigative judgement and heavenly temple service and ... and ... and ... come from Ellen White. You could save us all a lot of time by just saying "believe Ellen White as God's prophet for the remnant church in the end times"

 

[Stryder06]

It's something you ought to be up front about. She's the whole reason for Seventh Day Adventists believing that Daniel & Revelation inter-mesh as some kind of apocalyptic picture book with bits from Daniel setting the time table for the beginning times of bits in Revelation. The whole 2,300 days and 1844 and investigative judgement and heavenly temple service and ... and ... and ... come from Ellen White. You could save us all a lot of time by just saying "believe Ellen White as God's prophet for the remnant church in the end times"

Man, you're a hoot. The reformers who lived hunderds of years before Ellen White made the connection between Daniel and Revelation. There are a plethora of Sunday Churches who disagree with Ellen yet believe the SAME thing we do in regards to Daniel and Revelation, yet you have to try to make it out as if it's her baby.

And this has nothing to do with the 2300 days, 1844, the IJ, or the Heavenly Sanctuary. And AGAIN, you talk as if I have something to hide lol. This thread has nothing to do with those subject, neither does my response, and yet you have to find some way to slide it in like it does. But that's cool. Do you bro

 

[thereselittleflower]

Just because some things in the book of revelations is full of symbolism does not mean the whole entire thing is symbolic and that your only counter to it is that it's full of symbolism, some things in the book of revelations is fairly understandable and mentioned in other parts of the bible such as the harvest and the judgement.

Not in the way you think it is understandable.

Let's look at another example. Poetry. There are books of the poetic genre in the bible.

Look at the Song of Solomon. The writer says:

12 A garden shut up [is] my sister-spouse, A spring shut up -- a fountain sealed.
13 Thy shoots a paradise of pomegranates, With precious fruits,
​

Is she literally a garden? Is she literally a spring? Is she literally a founatain? Does she literally have shoots of pomegranates and precious fruits?

No.

But, if we ignore the genre and read it literally, that would be the conclusion we would be forced to come to . .she is literally all these things.


Same way if you ignore the genre of Revelation and try to make it something it's not, you will come away with very erroneous ideas.

Apocalyptic literature was a common style of writing that flourished from 200 years before and 200 years after Christ, a period of great political and religious persecution. People saw their world as totally dominated by evil forces. Some were tempted to believe that God had failed them, while others had faith that God would intervene to redeem the world. This decisive moment of God's saving action was known as the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:1-3). Apocalyptic writing dealt with this eternal struggle between good and evil. It encouraged people to remain faithful despite their trials.

​

CHARACTERISTICS OF APOCALYPTIC LITERATURE
Each kind of literature is unique and has its own traits and characteristics. Failure to recognize these differences leads to a misunderstanding of the message. Important characteristics of apocalyptic literature are:
AUTHOR IS UNKNOWN: Apocalyptic literature is generally written under a pseudonym, usually the name of a famous person who is deceased. Apocalyptic authors must protect their identities since they are advocating open rebellion against the anti-God forces, which are often the state.
PAST ORIENTATED: When Apocalyptic authors give their descriptions of the future, they do it in terms of the "good old days" -- Paradise, the Exodus, etc. The authors describe the present situation in terms of the "bad days" -- chaos, plagues, disaster, the beast, etc.
FUTURE ORIENTATED: To throw powerful enemies off track, the author pretends to speak about what will happen in the future. In fact, the intolerable conditions of the present are being described. Readers recognize their own situation, and have faith that the present distress is merely a prelude to the Reign of God. The only thing to be concerned about in the future is that God's day will surely come.
SYMBOLISM: The authors are familiar with the Old Testament language and symbolism (There are 245 direct or indirect quotes from the Old Testament in Revelation). Unless you have the keys to understand these symbols, the door to the real meaning is closed. Lacking these, the enemies don't recognize themselves in the weird symbolism.
NUMEROLOGY: The ancient languages often employed the alphabet to count (eg. Roman Numerals: I V X C M, etc.) Thus every word had a numerical value For example in Matthew's genealogy David's name (DVD -- there were no written vowels in the Hebrew language) represents 14 generations: D = 4, V = 6, D = 4, or two times seven. Numbers could also conceal a name: 666 of Revelation: Nero Caesar (Nrwn Qsr in Latin) -- N = 50, 4 = 200, W = 6, N = 50, Q = 100, S= 60, R = 200 totals 666. Other Numbers also have meaning: Four is the number of creation: four points of the compass, four seasons, etc. Seven (lucky seven) is the number of perfection, and six is the imposter since it falls short of seven (666 is really bad!). Twelve is the number of God's people (Patriarchs and Apostles). One thousand and its multiples refer to what is infinite and uncountable.



THE ROMAN EMPIRE
While Christians of the first century understood the ancient symbols, the Romans were unable to decipher the bizarre imagery. Christians knew that the writer was dealing with ideas that ordinary language could not describe. They did not dwell on the symbols but passed through them to the underlying reality. Because we no longer understand the symbols today, we read the Book of Revelation more like the Romans did.


Revelation
​

The author goes on to describe in much more depth the time and situation the Apocalypse of John was written in and its relevance to the believers of the time. It's worth reading.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sorry, I'm not referencing anything particularly from Daniel. It's just that a ton of symbolism in Revelation can't be understood if you don't understand Daniel.

That may be very true, but it doesn't make numbers like 1000 literal.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Your assumptions are identical as well . Even IF my words were from Sr White, you say it to me as if it's something I should be ashamed of. You're the one who has a problem with her, not me. Her view of eschatology came from the reformers before her who WEREN'T Adventist, but that's a story for another thread.

And you have NO idea how much or how little of her writings I've ever read. Either way, I'd rather stick with her, than with your Catechism.

We both want truth, right?

 

[MoreCoffee]

.... The reformers who lived hundreds of years before Ellen White made the connection between Daniel and Revelation. ...

Oh please! Everybody knows that the first 'reformers' thought they were in the last days themselves and they were keen, oh so keen, to identify the then Pope as Antichrist and the Catholic church as all the bad things in the Apocalypse of John. Those reformers would probably have executed Ellen White for pretending to the office of prophet and claiming direct inspiration for her writings! But that being said, you are very coy about Ellen White as the source for your perspective on end times. Don't be shy, we can take it, we might chuckle a little at some of the technicalities of her stated views but we can take it

 

[thereselittleflower]

Oh please! Everybody knows that the first 'reformers' though they were in the last days themselves and they were keen, oh so keen, to identify the then Pope as Antichrist and the Catholic church as all the bad things in the Apocalypse of John. Those reformers would probably have executed Ellen White for pretending to the office of prophet and claiming direct inspiration for her writings! But that being said, you are very coy about Ellen White as the source for your perspective on end times. Don't be shy, we can take it, we might chuckle a little at some of the technicalities of her stated views but we can take it

That fun war of words where the end justified the means and all sorts of lies were said about the Catholic Church to make converts.