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Featured True saving faith is proven by your repentance

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    I don't ignore it. We are to do good work. Good works however don't save us, and to believe they do is to misunderstand the gospel.
    Until you come to realize that all your goodness is filthy rags, that you at your best, are broken and needy and depraved, and nothing you can ever do will ever earn any brownie points with God because he is so far above what you can ever imagine, you don't get grace.
    You can't work your way into heaven, you can only fall on his Mercy. That's the gospel.
     
  2. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4:5
     
  3. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Both. But the battle is not over. We are not glorified. We still fall short in many ways.
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe the baptism that saves is the baptism of the Spirit. This is the believer receiving the Holy Spirit and receiving a new heart with new desires (Note: This does not have be made evident of a person speaking in tongues as some may teach).

    Anyways, in 1 Peter 3:21: I believe Peter said that baptism (water baptism) saves not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin) but it only saves in the sense of one having an already clean conscience (Note: Similar words of "filth of the flesh" is used in reference to "sin" in 2 Corinthians 7:1). Paul said he came not to baptize (water baptize) but he came to preach the gospel. So if water baptism was for salvation, then why is Paul saying he came not to do something that was essential to salvation? It doesn't make any sense.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Romans 4:5 is in regards to Paul speaking against "Circumcision Salvationism" and or the Jewish ways of following the Old Law alone for salvation. Skip back to Romans 3:1 and you will read this:

    "What advantage then hath the Jew?
    or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).​

    The heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" or following the Law of Moses alone for salvation was a problem that was addressed more clearly at the Jerusalem council.

    1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

    2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

    3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

    This is what Paul was fighting against, too.

    "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
    Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

    For if one says they are saved initially by being circumcised, then Christ is no longer the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation but it is the Law and or a work alone that is the foundation. This is why Paul spoke in the way that he did in Romans 4:5. A person first needs to enter the Justification Process via by trusting in Christ for their salvation first and they cannot make the Law of Moses (the Old Law) the basis for their salvation. Paul is speaking in terms of the Justification Process and not the Sanctification Process. But of course, those who want to justify a sin and still be saved type belief will distort Romans 4:5 beyond what Paul meant it for. You have to take into account the whole counsel of God's Word. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Jesus warned against how certain sins can destroy us (Matthew 5:29-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37). Jesus warned about how the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The problem is that there is no point to battle if one has a secure in their sin view of salvation. Just go back to one's old man and don't worry about following Jesus and or doing good because one has a belief alone on Jesus for salvation. Either Christ's sacrifice was enough to pay for every sin so as to allow a person to live however they like, or his grace is not sufficient. In fact, some I even talk with here on the forums believe this way. They think they can do all manner of horrible sins and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    George Sodini:

    On August 4th, 2009, 48 year old George Sodini shot 9 people in a Pittsburg Pennsylvania health club.

    George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote; “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”

    Source:
    George Sodini - Eternal Security Proponent - Mass Murderer, & Suicide Victim.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Martin Luther said:

    "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day"


    Source:
    'Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521.
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4) (NIV).
     
  11. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Yes, a blood relationship. Obviously. But not only. Within that relationship there may also be fellowship, the "active relationship" you mention and the opposite of a "dead relationship."

    Exactly. No fellowship. They had a father-son relationship but no intimate communion, no fellowship.

    Fellowship and relationship, as I've already explained, are not the same thing. Again, they are related, but the former speaks of intimate communion and the latter of having something in common (blood ties, membership on a team, learning circumstance, etc.).

    I am not changing definitions at all, but, as I've already explained, acknowledging the intimate communion God calls all of His children into with Himself (but which not all of His children enjoy).

    In the story of the Prodigal it seems evident to me that the only thing that could have been said to be "dead" was the intimate communion between father and son. The son was not actually, physically dead; the son was acknowledged as a son all throughout the parable both by Christ who told the story and the father in the story. Thus, it seems pretty clear to me that the son was "dead" only in the sense that his fellowship with his father, his direct, intimate communion with his father, was totally halted by his profligate living. Does this need to be explicitly stated for it to be evident in the story? I don't think so. It is just as evident, just as readily deduced from the facts, it seems to me, as the doctrine of the Trinity is (though, as you know, the word "trinity" is never used in Scripture in reference to God's nature).

    I offered two, in fact, that I think make it clear we are all born in sin. There is, though, no verse anywhere in Scripture that positively and explicitly affirms that children are born without a sin-nature.

    No, in context, the verse is a statement of guilt that David was making about himself. In the first five verses of Psalm 51, David is acknowledging his sin and guilt before God, not that of his parents. Verse 5 is clearly a part of David's self-condemnation, a part of his description of his sinfulness.

    This is silly. David's meaning is made clear by the immediate context in which verse 5 exists. See above.

    You're right: The Bible never explicitly says that children are born sinful. But it does indicate that the curse of sin and an irresistible inclination toward sin are part of the fundamental nature of every human person. This is why Paul is so sweeping in his statements about the nature of the lost (Ephesians 2:1-3; Titus 3:3-4; Colossians 1:20-21, etc.) I think Paul's remark in the last parenthetical Scripture reference above is particularly clear about the problem of sin being upon everything:

    Colossians 1:20
    20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


    "Reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself..."? "All things" would include infants and toddlers. Why would they need to be reconciled to God if they are, as you assert, sinless and innocent? Because, as the other Scripture references I offer above indicate, they are under the curse of sin brought upon all humanity by Adam and are by nature "children of wrath" as Paul wrote in Ephesians 1:3.
     
  12. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    And certain people on this forum say, that unless you do certain good works perfectly, you cannot be saved. They never quite define what those good works are, or how many of them you have to do, instead of relying on the finished work of Christ for your salvation.
     
  13. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    That's absurd. Anyone who truly loves Christ wants to do what pleases him. Doing good to secure your salvation is not doing anything at all. That which is not done out of love is rubbish.

    " Dear children, let’s not merely say that we love each other; let us show the truth by our actions."
    Not because we are trying to earn something we can never earn. It's a gift. A gift cannot be earned.
     
  14. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Obedience comes from faith. It doesn't earn salvation. I'm not excluding obedience. I'm saying biblically, our fruit isn't what makes us right with God. We can never do enough good to earn righteousness. If you give your body to the fire, and give away every thing you own, it profits nothing. It doesn't earn you anything. Only love for Christ and others matters, and that comes from the Spirit. Jesus said when you have done all you can to obey, you have only done your duty.

    " when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'"

    Doing good can never make you worthy.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am aware of what Luke 17:10 says as a part of my New Testament commandment studies.

    "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." (Luke 17:20).​

    The point is doing everything we were commanded to do and the point is not about how our obedience does not matter. One is called an unworthy servant after obeying ALL of the Lord's commands because of their past life of sin and in the fact that some believers may have stumbled on rare occasion. Again, you need to look at the whole counsel of God's Word. It also says in Scripture the following:

    "His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant:
    thou hast been faithful over a few things,
    I will make thee ruler over many things:
    enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

    "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).​

    Obviously the unprofitable servant in Matthew 25:30 is not the same one mentioned in Luke 17:10.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Your words here run contrary to Scripture:

    "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

    "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).

    "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;" (Colossians 1:10).

    "Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Anyone who loves Jesus will not justify sin or wrong doing on any level under His grace. For it would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

    Isaiah 26:10 says that grace can be shown to the wicked but they will not learn righteousness.

    In other words, if a person thinks God's grace is a safety net to sin in some way, they will never uphold a standard of living righteously. They will not believe Titus 2:11-12 that says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Again, read Titus 2:11-12. For the problem is that the "Secure in One's Sin Salvationist" do not even believe they can live righteously in this present world as Titus 2:11-12 says.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    CERTAIN works (or obedience to certain commands) and not all works. Matthew 5:11-12 is one such command that is not attached with any mention of hellfire or spiritual death if it is disobeyed. Yet, not forgiving others is a salvation issue (Matthew 6:15). There is a difference. Yes, in time we have to live holy in this life according to meeting the bare minimum requirements as laid out in the New Testament. This would include myself. If I do not meet that standard in the end, I will not be saved. I am not above God's Word anymore than you are. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). This is not in contradiction to God's grace. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly in this present world.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  19. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    Funny.

    who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves usbaptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

    It isn't washing of dirt off the body - it is washing of sin - made effective by Christ's sacrifice. If the purification of sin doesn't create in you a good conscience toward God, nothing does.

    You're right. So first you say it doesn't save you and now you say it does. That's how convoluted your logic is.

    The word pledge is not used here. That's your pretext. Peter explains, by using the word αντιτυπος here that Noah's ark is the 'type' of which baptism is the 'antitype.'

    The word antitype means 'the impression left by the image.' It denoted the imprint in wax made by the stamp of a signatory on official documents which was a mirror of what was on the stamp. So the ark, in which 8 people were baptized and who were inside the ark remaining dry, were saved, while the water around the ark literally removed the sin of the world. Peter says those lives were literally saved from physical death by the ark - a figurative image of Christ himself. The 8 souls of Noah and his family were "in Christ."

    In baptism, the person makes contact with the water. And this contact with water is what allows a person to come into contact with the blood of Christ's sacrifice (see Romans 6). John says that our baptism, the water, testifies with the Holy Spirit that we are His.

    That water and blood is what removes our past sins. That's the very definition of salvation. The fact that we do this cannot provide us any credit for our salvation since it was Christ's sacrifice that made it effective. Paul even references baptism in Ephesians 2:1-6 to let that church know that baptism was not a work "of yourselves." We can't claim credit for saving ourselves because without Christ, baptism is just a bath, washing physical dirt off of our flesh. And since the flesh 'profits nothing,' a mere washing of our flesh has no effect. It also cannot be removed from the subset of works "of yourselves" since Paul includes it in his statement that it was our baptism that has saved us, perfective past passive participle - past completed, ongoing action. That word by itself could be translated - "having been saved not of yourselves". It is the passive mood which denotes that a person receives the result of the action.

    Baptism washes our sins away. That's what John the baptist preached. It's what Peter preached. It's what Paul preached. It is how we contact the blood of Jesus' sacrifice. We can't credit ourselves with our salvation since we didn't die on the cross but, we must do this thing in order to share in Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. We are commanded to do it "for the remission of your sins."

    It's not a sign or a pledge but actual salvation from our past sins. It's a work, but it isn't our work. It's not a work "of yourselves."

    When Paul says "not of works," the words he uses there are modifying the phrase, "of yourselves." He didn't say that no works save us, he said that no works of ourselves save us. Baptism isn't our work, even though we do it. Neither is belief, as Jesus tells us. Those works are God's works which Paul explains in verse 10 of Ephesians chapter 2, we are created to walk in. Since only God is good, it his his good works which save us, not our own invented works which save us.

    But we certainly must do those works and they save us. What did Ananias say to Paul?

    14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

    Ananias had no qualms in telling Saul that by getting in the water he would be washing away his sins. He tells Saul that the result of his baptism, something he would do, would result in his purification. Not in the sense that he could take credit for the result but that doing it would result in purification.

    Anyone who preaches against this, simply has not studied the subject. We are saved by works. It's written all over the New Testament. We are not saved by the works of the obsolete law of Moses (Romans, Galatians) or works we invented which we think God will accept (Ephesians). Nor can we take credit for the works we do which God has commanded. Jesus explains this perfectly in Luke.

    Luke 17
    10 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ”

    What Paul was teaching in Ephesians was this very message that Jesus taught his apostles. The scriptures harmonize, they do not invalidate.
     
  20. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    God's good works save us. In fact James explains to us that without God's good works faith is dead. It can't save you.
    First of all, you are referencing Isaiah who was using hyperbole to describe the condition of Israel at the time of that writing, not the permanent, general condition of all mankind. He was righteous himself being an oracle of God. And we know for certain that God does not hear sinners and he certainly doesn't speak through their mouths if they aren't righteous - doing the works of God.

    If anyone does God's will, he is by definition righteous by God's standards, not man's. Isaiah was lamenting the fact that Israel was disobedient. Their righteousness was fake. Many were worshiping idols.



    You are merely repeating the nonsense of some preacher. It's a slogan. The gospel teaches us that we must do the works God has prescribed in order to partake in Christ's sacrifice. You don't understand Grace at all. Grace is not magic dust, it is a kindness. God GAVE the commands we must do to participate in Christ's sacrifice. That is grace by definition. The commands are in and of themselves a gift.
     
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