True saving faith is proven by your repentance

Al Touthentop

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Paul also said if you are trying to be justified by works Christ will be no use to you.

Works of the law (of Moses!) and works of merit that we invent. You can't apply this to all works. We ARE saved by doing the works that God commanded.

You are totally expanding Paul's context beyond what he intended.
 
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Al Touthentop

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No,."....if in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

He didn't just think something in his mind, he OBEYED.
 
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Al Touthentop

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We are not saved by works, period. If works could save us, Christ would not have been needed.
Works salvation is a false religion according to scripture.

Only if you expand Paul's context to mean all works. He never said that no works were required. Ever.

Jesus said that belief was a work. So if you truly believe works can't save us, then you disagree with Jesus who said it was a work and that it saved you, and you then make it impossible for one to be saved at all since every work that Jesus commanded and said saved you, doesn't save you. Peter says that a work, baptism, "now saves us." So you also call Peter a liar when you buy into this expansion of context. Paul was being specific, He talked about 'works of the law' and works 'of yourselves' emphasizing that it was only God's works which he prepared for us which save us. Stop ignoring Ephesians 2:10.

You can ignore that statement all you want but it is still there and it means what it says.
 
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Al Touthentop

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We are not saved by works, period. If works could save us, Christ would not have been needed.
Works salvation is a false religion according to scripture.

Well that's weird because Jesus said we had to believe and be baptized and both of those are works. You have bought a pig in a poke.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Did you not read the verse? He was justified by faith. Yes he obeyed generally, although he also sinned at times.

It was his obedience that caused God to call him righteous. He put his own son on an altar. That's what justified him. He trust and faith in God led him to agree to sacrifice his own son.
 
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renniks

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Jesus said that belief was a work.
As a figure of speech. They asked what works they had to do, expecting him to give them works of the law and he turned it around by saying the " work" that they actually needed was to believe. Lots of people are trying to work thier way into heaven. Almost every false religion is built on that. Works of any kind can't save us.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

But everyone wants to add to that and claim they had a part in saving themselves. Nope, faith plus grace, that's it. Baptism doesn't save either.
 
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renniks

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Faith isn't a work. That's unbiblical. Baptism is a testimony of faith. It doesn't save you.
Well that's weird because Jesus said we had to believe and be baptized and both of those are works. You have bought a pig in a poke.
 
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Al Touthentop

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As a figure of speech. They asked what works they had to do, expecting him to give them works of the law and he turned it around by saying the " work" that they actually needed was to believe. Lots of people are trying to work thier way into heaven. Almost every false religion is built on that. Works of any kind can't save us.

Isn't it convenient for you to redefine words to match your theology rather than match your theology to what God taught?

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

And in verse one he refers to their baptism. So he's NOT excluding works that God commanded but works "of yourselves." You ignore context and insert your pretext.

But everyone wants to add to that and claim they had a part in saving themselves. Nope, faith plus grace, that's it. Baptism doesn't save either.

So you're calling Peter a liar. Peter didn't understand grace and the gospel. Wow. Such hubris.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Faith isn't a work. That's unbiblical. Baptism is a testimony of faith. It doesn't save you.

That's not what Paul says, that's not what Peter says and it isn't what Jesus said. Baptism is not a testimony of faith, it is how a Christian receives remission of sins.
 
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renniks

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It was his obedience that caused God to call him righteous. He put his own son on an altar. That's what justified him. He trust and faith in God led him to agree to sacrifice his own son.
But he was justified by faith. Works can demonstrate faith, but they don't save. Again, you are ignoring what was said. He believed God and that is what justified him.

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about

However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
 
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Al Touthentop

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But he was justified by faith. Works can demonstrate faith, but they don't save. Again, you are ignoring what was said. He believed God and that is what justified him.

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about

However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

You don't even realize how disjointed your argument is. Faith includes obedience. If God told Abraham to go sacrifice his son and Abraham didn't go, he wouldn't have been called righteous.

You keep trying to re-define faith to exclude obedience when in fact James tells us that a faith without obedience is a dead faith that cannot save a person.
 
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I would argue that the article's absence there does not give an indication that it is a specific sin (a sin). We know that all sin leads to death - a broken relationship with God. But here I think John means death in the permanent sense - condemnation on the day of Judgement - and he's talking about unrepentant, continuing sin rather than a particular commandment.

I think John is telling us that if one prays that God forgive an unrepentant sinner, he's actually praying against God's will. And if he does that within the earshot of the unrepentant sinner, he's giving the impression that we give our blessing to this person to continue sinning unrepentantly and God will forgive him by our intercessionary prayer. It's a bad practice for us and it goes against God's will for both us and that person. God doesn't want him to go to hell, but he also doesn't want him to continue sinning as if it doesn't have any consequences.

Yes, I agree that "the sin unto death" is not a specific singular sin, but it is describing a particular kind of grievous sins that go unconfessed (like hate, lust, theft, lying, etc.).

As for the scenario you describe for the intercessory prayer involving a believer who is committing the sin unto death:

Interesting. I never considered that one before.
Thank you. While I prefer to dig some more on this passage, and pray about it again, I will take it under advisement. But thank you.

May God bless you.
 
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No one is debating whether we do good works.

Well, you seem to think good works do not play a part in one's salvation. If this is the case, then no good works should ever be necessary, but they would merely be optional. But Paul says that a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). But it is even more than just having good works. For we know that the good works done by certain believers did not save them in Matthew 7:22-23. Their problem is that they worked iniquity (sin). This is why Jesus did not know them. For we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3). Anyways, the problem of the believer in Matthew 7:22-23 is that they justified sin. They did not live holy. Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. That is what they lacked because they worked iniquity or lawlessness.
 
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Why do you suppose Paul has to tell Christians not to let sin reign over them? Should they not already be perfect in every way possible?

The Sanctification Process takes time for some believers. So no. Not everyone is a cookie cutter clone in doing good overnight. For some, it takes time to put away their grievous sin. It's why we are told to work our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). It's why we are told to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). For others it can be an almost overnight process or within a very short time. I believe this to be the case for Enoch, and the 144,000. It depends on the heart of the individual.

Anyways, you ask: "Why do you suppose Paul has to tell Christians not to let sin reign over them?"

Paul answers this by saying:

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? " (Romans 6:16).​

Jesus says he that sins is a "servant of sin," but the servant will not abide in the house forever (See: John 8:34-35). This means that the believer who commits grievous unrepentant sin (or who justifies sin) will be cast out of the house of the Son of God. How so? We see an example of this in Matthew 13:41-42. It says:

The Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM, all things that offend (i.e. those who make others to sin), and all who work iniquity (i.e. those who work sin or lawlessness), and they (the angels) will cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).​

John says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8).
John says everyone who does evil hates the light (John 3:20).
The light is Jesus Christ.
Can a person hate Jesus and be saved?
Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).
 
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Is it in us or on us?

One of the gnostic beliefs teaches that when a person sins, they sin physically in their flesh, but they do not sin in their soul or spirit. I have heard "Secure in One's Sin Salvationists" say a similar thing in regards to their belief that Jesus pays for their present and future sin. So when they sin physically, they believe God does not see their sin upon their soul or spirit because they have a belief alone on Jesus. This of course is nonsense and it is not taught in the Bible. Yes, Justification is taught in the Bible, but this would be in regards to the forgiveness of past sins. If any new sin is committed, a believer needs to confess and forsake such a sin in order to have continued grace and or mercy.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Yes, I agree that "the sin unto death" is not a specific singular sin, but it is describing a particular kind of grievous sins that go unconfessed (like hate, lust, theft, lying, etc.).

As for the scenario you describe for the intercessory prayer involving a believer who is committing the sin unto death:

Interesting. I never considered that one before.
Thank you. While I prefer to dig some more on this passage, and pray about it again, I will take it under advisement. But thank you.

May God bless you.

You're welcome and I know that this is one of those vague things that couldn't be proven with certainty. It's a cryptic thing. I obviously may not be right about it. But after a lot of contemplation, that's what I've settled on.

God bless you too.
 
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renniks

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So you're calling Peter a liar. Peter didn't understand grace and the gospel. Wow. Such hubris.
Not at all. Because he never said baptism saves.
not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

What saves you? The pledge, not the water.
 
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