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Trinity is wrong.

&Abel

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per⋅son

   /ˈpɜr
thinsp.png
sən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pur-suh
thinsp.png
n] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons.
2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
3. Sociology. an individual human being, esp. with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.
4. Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.
5. the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.
6. the body of a living human being, sometimes including the clothes being worn: He had no money on his person.
7. the body in its external aspect: an attractive person to look at.
8. a character, part, or role, as in a play or story.
9. an individual of distinction or importance.
10. a person not entitled to social recognition or respect.
11. Law. a human being (natural person) or a group of human beings, a corporation, a partnership, an estate, or other legal entity (artificial person or juristic person) recognized by law as having rights and duties.
12. Grammar. a category found in many languages that is used to distinguish between the speaker of an utterance and those to or about whom he or she is speaking. In English there are three persons in the pronouns, the first represented by I and we, the second by you, and the third by he, she, it, and they. Most verbs have distinct third person singular forms in the present tense, as writes; the verb be has, in addition, a first person singular form am.
13. Theology. any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the Trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. —Idioms
14. be one's own person, to be free from restrictions, control, or dictatorial influence: Now that she's working, she feels that she's her own person.
15. in person, in one's own bodily presence; personally: Applicants are requested to apply in person.
 
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2ducklow

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Duck that would be invalid to you. Not invalid to many other Christians.

On the other side of the issue is having to explain how God can be seen, when scripture says God cannot be seen.

How we can seek the face of the invisible God.

How we can be one with the invisible God

How God can be light, living water, eat, think,

How can the God of the universe be singular when He is one with all.

bananna
I will show you a paradox to most christians because they have an incorrect understanding of something. It is no paradox however, if one correctly understands the something I shall leave unnamed.

Ezekiel 1:5 And out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man.

4 living creatures plural have the likeness of a man singular.

paradox? contradiction? or does it actually make sense in some way?

Ezekiel 10:15 And the cherubim mounted up: this is the living creature that I saw by the river Chebar.

the cherubim plural is the living creature singular. but previously the 4 living creatures plural were like a man singular.

paradox? contradiction? or does it possibly make sense in some way?

Ezekiel 1:15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold, one wheel upon the earth beside the living creatures, for each of the four faces thereof.

Now the living creatures are plural, previously it was the living creature singular.

Ezekiel 10:3-4 Now the cherubim stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court. And the glory of Jehovah mounted up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of Jehovah's glory.

first they are called cherubim plural then it is the cherub singular. paradox? contradiction? or is there some real meaning here?


Ezekiel 10:7 And the cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubim unto the fire that was between the cherubim, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed in linen, who took it and went out.

first it's called a cherub singular, then cherubim plural.
 
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2ducklow

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Sorry.



I'm stunned, actually.



To be honest, I didn't read your whole post. Anyway, it's three persons, one God. Not three beings, one being. If I gave you that idea it's my fault.
God the father isn't a being? A person isn't a being? you mean you are not a being, I'm assuming that you are a person and that i'm not just talking to a computer? amazing. a person isn't a being. that means persons don't exist. that means god the father doesn't exist. and you belive that? i can see that you aren't i8ntersted in a real discussion here.
 
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hybrid

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God the father isn't a being?

god is being. fatherhood is not.
"fatherhood" by and large is a concept it is an idea basically means "source".
the word father cannot be an absolute being because by its very nature the meaning of the word father is relative to son. without the son the word father is meaningless. therefore the fatherhood of god is a descriptive aspect of his nature and attribute.

A person isn't a being? you mean you are not a being, I'm assuming that you are a person and that i'm not just talking to a computer?
yes!
you're beingness is your humanity.
your personhood is the uniqueness of your being based upon your identity "shaped" about by your culture, social, environmental conditioning, ethnic background, education, etc etc.

a person isn't a being. .
a person is a being but a shown they are not equivalent in meaning. but then again, you're refusal to differentiate personhood and beingness is understandable being an avowed person to dispute trinity at all cost.
that means persons don't exist.
yes a person exists. you are a human "being" exists as a person 2dl.

that means god the father doesn't exist
god exists.
it simply means that god exists as a father, a son and a spirit at the same time.
 
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2ducklow

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god is being. fatherhood is not.
"fatherhood" by and large is a concept it is an idea basically means "source".
the word father cannot be an absolute being because by its very nature the meaning of the word father is relative to son. without the son the word father is meaningless. therefore the fatherhood of god is a descriptive aspect of his nature and attribute.
you didn't answer the question as to wheter god the Father is a being or not. you seem to be saying part of him is a being and part is not. If so, you are still saying that 3 beings are one being.
hybrid said:
yes!
you're beingness is your humanity.
your personhood is the uniqueness of your being based upon your identity "shaped" about by your culture, social, environmental conditioning, ethnic background, education, etc etc.
so a being is human, and God is a being. correct.

look at *abels' posted def. of the word person. A person is a being as you sort of are affirming here. in which case trinity is 3 beings that are one being. a contradiction. come on now, you're not really going to say either that God the Father doesn't exist or that god doesn 't exist are you? there's no way around it, trinity teaches that 3 beings are one being. unless you are going to say that either god the father doesn't exist or god doesn't exist, your stuck with a contradiction doctrine. why do you think they tried and stick that 'these three are one'' in 1 john 5.7 if trinity doesn't teach 3 beings are one being? It does and everyone knows it.


You tried very hard to avoid saying if god the father is a being . your answer is very confusing. I don't really know what you mean. but my answer is not confusing. God the father is a being, god is a being. I have no trouble whatsoever clearly stateing that God the father is a being and god is a being. ever wonder why you can't say it clearly but have to resort ot confusing answers that no one comprehends? do you really think that Jesus, if asked the question does god the father exist couldn't answer it with a simple yes?
 
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hybrid

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so a being is human,

nope.
a human is a being.
god is a being.
being is a state of existence.
being a tree
being a rock
being god
being human

look at *abels' posted def. of the word person..

yes it has a definition that says person is a character and a role. also it defines a corporation a a person also.

this means that the word person is not an absolute term that is equivalent to being. if you let go of that mindset, it will make sense.
 
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hybrid

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Origin of the concept of personhood

While "personhood" is absent from most dictionaries, the sense of a status of being a person is suggested by the senses of "person" implied by definitions like "an individual human being; esp: an human being as distinguished from an animal or thing, and by the apparent similarities between "personhood" and "personality". The word "person" in English is believed to be ultimately derived from the Etruscan word phersu "meaning mask", and clearly passed through the Latin persona, with the triple meaning "mask", "character in a play", and "person", suggesting the word's close association with the aspects of human individuals that elicit portraying them in performances. wikipedia
 
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&Abel

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we are told on more then one occasion that jesus christ is in us(equating him with the holy spirit) this same spirit is referred to the spirit of the father

you could almost look at it like the essence that is god you speak of IS the holy spirit

its the essence of god itself that we now have access too through the work of the son...and the spirit is the spirit of both the father and son
 
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Evergreen48

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Why can't we just accept what the scriptures say? The scriptures plainly teach that He was a man, not a god. Neither do they teach that He was The God. Why do we make so difficult that which God has made so simple for us?

Who was Jesus? Jesus was all that God wanted each and every one of us to be, but none of us were. And He was God's proof positive that He (God) had not ask the impossible of any of us. For if Jesus, who was human just as we are human, was perfectly obedient to the Father and knew no sin, then so each of us could also have done, but didn't.
 
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Obiwan

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John 17: 22
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:



D&C 35: 2
2 I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one.


Latter day revelation has made the issue clear.... There is no longer confusion except by those who refuse to know what God has wrott in these the last days preparatory to His comming.
 
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&Abel

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some proof that the trinity is at least SOMEWHAT wrong...the holy spirit is not a seperate person from the father and christ...the holy spirit IS the essence of god that makes both the father and christ god(which we now have access too)


9However, you are not (R)in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God (S)dwells in you But (T)if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10(U)If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who (V)raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, (W)He who raised (X)Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [a]through His Spirit who dwells in you.
 
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gort

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Jn 1:4 ...the light of men? In this case, I believe the scripture is referring to the Father, not Jesus.


I don't think it could be speaking to the Father as John 1.1-2 shows that the Logos was with God..

Why...because in the KJV, it is closer to the greek than the NIV and other versions:
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The word is what God spoke...not a being, specifically Christ. What he thought and spoke was always with him, and is spirit...the same nature as God...the word is God...has nothing to do with Christ in this verse.

It must have something to do with Christ as it was the Logos that was in the world and the world came into being through Him. (john 1.10)



All the way until verse 4 is only about God, not Jesus.

Again, not if the Logos was in the beginning with God.




Consider Rev 21:22-23
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

God is the light. Christ HOLDS the light ...he is the lamp.

Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

If all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, how could Christ be merely holding the lamp?

God dwells in Christ....God is not Christ in essence.

Again, fulllnes of deity means what?

When Christ did all that his father wanted, in every way, he was the word of God manifest to the world. But he still had free will...to do it, or not.

Yes, even before the foundation of the world.

If he was the WORD by intrinsic nature, he could not disobey the word. He could not be tempted. He could ot have a will different from his father. He had to be the word by free will deed and thought. Only by doing that all the way to his death could he be forsaken by his father to take sin for us, and be able to say it is finished at the end....total obedience, regardless of cost.


Is it not possible to think that the word of God could not disobey itself and be of the same will of God, of the same mindset of God?

Cliff


Tell me, is Wisdom personified in the book of Wisdom? If so, does it not seem rational that such a personification would exhibit all the attributes of Wisdom in toto?
 
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gort

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some proof that the trinity is at least SOMEWHAT wrong...the holy spirit is not a seperate person from the father and christ...the holy spirit IS the essence of god that makes both the father and christ god(which we now have access too)


9However, you are not (R)in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God (S)dwells in you But (T)if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10(U)If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who (V)raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, (W)He who raised (X)Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [a]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

So why does Jesus call the Holy Spirit a personal pronoun, He?
 
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&Abel

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hes partially speaking in the 3rd person and partially calling him "he" because jesus is the holy spirit in a man...and what we have is just the holy spirit(within MEN)

the third manifestation of the holy spirit is in us

the holy spirit IS the father and IS the son and IS whats in us

the holy spirit is what makes the father the father and the son the son and is everything that is good within us as well
 
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Bananna

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High spirited
spirit of cooperation
spirit of Elijah
team spirit

I just wanted to point out holy spirit or spirit of holiness is different from saying The Holy Spirit.

having the spirit of the Christ or the spirit of holiness should not be confused with Christ's actual spirit living in us. Those are two separate issues that one must distinguish from the over all context.

Ruach Ha Kodesh ( Spirit the Holy) feminine. God masculine. Both often the One God being revealed in a different aspect but the same person IMO.

Then there is spirit of annointing(messiah/christ) not to be confused with spirit of Jesus or The Messiah/The Christ.

Yes "God/ Yeshua/ the called out of God" are one in the spirit of holiness by the power of the Holy Spirit/God.

KWIM
bananna
 
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&Abel

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so your saying the holy spirit is different from The Holy Spirit?

makes a lot of sense

5(M)Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; (N)examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you (O)fail the test?
6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
 
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&Abel

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God's Ancient Mercies Recalled

7I shall make mention of the (O)lovingkindnesses of the LORD, the praises of the LORD,
According to all that the LORD has granted us,
And the great (P)goodness toward the house of Israel,
Which He has granted them according to His (Q)compassion
And according to the abundance of His lovingkindnesses.
8For He said, "Surely, they are (R)My people,
Sons who will not deal falsely "
So He became their (S)Savior.
9In all their affliction (T)He was afflicted,
And the (U)angel of His presence saved them;
In His (V)love and in His mercy He (W)redeemed them,
And He (X)lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10But they (Y)rebelled
And grieved His (Z)Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.
11Then (AA)His people remembered the days of old, of Moses
Where is (AB)He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock?
Where is He who (AC)put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,
12Who caused His (AD)glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses,
Who (AE)divided the waters before them to make for Himself an everlasting name,
13Who led them through the depths?
Like the horse in the wilderness, they did not (AF)stumble;
14As the cattle which go down into the valley,
The Spirit of the (AG)LORD gave them rest
So You (AH)led Your people,
To make for Yourself a glorious name.

notice how he refers to the holy spirit as HIS HS??? you never hear him refer to Jesus as "his jesus"
 
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&Abel

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what kind of name is "The Holy Spirit" anyways

its almost always referred to as a thing not a person

now obviously I realize its much more then a thing but god would not have called a separate person by a descriptive title

the reason it has a descriptive title is because the holy spirit is exactly what its name says...its the spirit of the most holy
 
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