Trinity is wrong.

[Bananna]

Duck I don't believe Contra asked you to accept anything he said he only answered my question of explaining the Trinity Doctrine.

It is well established that Jewish theologians do not have to make sense out of paradox of scripture and I suspect Contra also has no difficulty with paradox.

this part however is a bit too narrow in my view:

Originally Posted by contramundum

must come to one of three conclusions- Unitarianism, Tritheism or Trinitarianism. Unitarianism (and its logical and historic derivatives) denies the three persons,
​

Duck - no it doesn't. it denies that the person of Jesus is God. it deinies that god the father and the holy spirit are two beings.

I just read up on Unitarianism which seems to have two camps and no definite position of the Nature of God other than He is One God.

The throne room of God in Revelation has two beings God on the throne, and the Faithful Witness who died for us at the right hand of God on His Thrown.

There are Seven spirits at the foot of the throne later discribed in Revelation as "angels".

I would assume that John was not troubled by these visions.

But neither did he try to give interpretation that the Faithful Witness was God.

 

[2ducklow]

Duck I don't believe Contra asked you to accept anything he said he only answered my question of explaining the Trinity Doctrine.

I don't expect him to answer either. I just enjoyed analyseing his logic.

It is well established that Jewish theologians do not have to make sense out of paradox of scripture and I suspect Contra also has no difficulty with paradox.

I beleive that all scripture is given to us to understand. I believe an understanding of scripture is not one that contradicts other understandings of scripture, as apparently you do. ON the one hand he says his doctrine is not comprehensible but on the other hand he says orthodoxy is perfectly logical and non confusing. Is this a paradox and therefore truth then too?

this part however is a bit too narrow in my view:


I just read up on Unitarianism which seems to have two camps and no definite position of the Nature of God other than He is One God.

The throne room of God in Revelation has two beings God on the throne, and the Faithful Witness who died for us at the right hand of God on His Thrown.

There are Seven spirits at the foot of the throne later discribed in Revelation as "angels".

I would assume that John was not troubled by these visions.

But neither did he try to give interpretation that the Faithful Witness was God.

So we both agree that contras explanation of trinity was about as contradictory as it gets. The difference is I see contradictions as being untrue, and you see contradictions as truth of scripture because jews who reject christ see scripture as an unexplainable paradox.

I suppose you believe what you say above is a contradiction. Well I see no contradiction in the scriptures you refer to. How are 7 spirits around the throne a contradiction of Jesus at the right hand of God and god on the throne? Jesus is right next to god on the throne, and further out are 7 spirits around the thone. No contradiction apparent or real.
If one has a belief that contradicts another belief or interpretation of scripture, then one of those beliefs is incorrect. You seem to be saying that contradictions in interpretations of scripture are both true and desireable. I don't agree with that.

 

[&Abel]

Hiya Bananna.

Thanks for the vote of confidence but this thread seems like one that would take a lot of effort to be involved in any further. I'm not sure I should invest that kind of time here because I have a feeling it won't make a lot of difference in the end.

But, to answer your question, the term "person" is not to be understood in human terms (eg. a rational being existing by itself) but in the sense of a rational being of the One Divine essence. The term fails on a human level to properly define the concept for the obvious reason that it is beyond our reasoning. What it does mean is that the idea of three seperate energies or qualities is rejected in favor of one essence who have one and the same "power" if you like. I don't know if the Greek and Latin terms will be of use but it is important to grasp them to really get a handle on this. There is an old axiom about humans: As many men, so many essences. A different doctrine applies to God, three persons, one essence.

The idea of "essence" (ousia) is not to be understood in the generic or abstract sence of the word (as in Greek philosophy) but in the concrete sense of the word meaning as something that actually exists. From this point we assess all the Divine attributes as something real, and one of those attributes being unique (one) and separate from all other things (holy). In this understanding of essence we come to know what is shared by all three persons of the Godhead. Yet, they are not persons in the human sense, but the very one and the very same God. How we establish the distinction in persons is based on how their actions are recorded in scripture.

Ultimately, it comes down to how we understand the basics of scripture teaching about God. It has been said that anyone approaching the whole context of scripture, seeing that Divine attributes are shared by three persons, must come to one of three conclusions- Unitarianism, Tritheism or Trinitarianism. Unitarianism (and its logical and historic derivatives) denies the three persons, and Tritheism (and its logical and historical derivatives like subordinationism) denies the one essence. Only Trinitarianism holds to all at once. It is taught (and this is important) that a Christian theologian would be in error if he or she taught the Trinity in such a way as to make it comprehensible to human reason, for to do so would be evidence of missing the mark on one point or another. Nevertheless, while it is beyond reason it is not unreasonable or self-contradictory. Knowing that God is only One in nature and "ousia" yet that He is seen in the Son and the Holy Spirit is something that must be affirmed regardless of human shortcomings in grasping it rationally. We cannot lose one point or reason away portions of scripture at the expense of another portion because we don't have the capacity to make head or tail of it. Rather, by faith we embrace all that scripture says even in points of intellectual tension, and allow God to teach us His truths by faith. One theologian put it best- "From this it is clear the term Trinity has not been coined to satisfy reason, but only to express the doctrine of scripture concerning the true God" (J. T. Mueller)

this is one of my problems with the trinity doctrine...the use of the word "persons"

person(s) has a variety of differing definitions and its no where near as specific as it should be

based on my interpretation of the word person I believe that all forms of god are the same person

 

[hybrid]

I have no difficulty in grasping it rationally. God is in Christ. one being inside another being. and the holy spirit is the spirit of God the Father.

christ makes no distinction between the father and him when he declared that they are one.

perhaps the apparent and seemingly separation that we make between the two exists only in our minds.. ya know the carnal mind.

 

[hybrid]

this is one of my problems with the trinity doctrine...the use of the word "persons"

person(s) has a variety of differing definitions and its no where near as specific as it should be

based on my interpretation of the word person I believe that all forms of god are the same person

i asked the OP the same controversial question. we assume we know what a person is without questioning our assumptions.
but really what is a person? we call ourselves persons, but what is a person? What makes up a person? What characteristics must a person have?

for those interested, for stater...scot philosopher david hume had an interesting take on the nature of personhood.

 

[2ducklow]

christ makes no distinction between the father and him when he declared that they are one.

perhaps the distinctions that we make exists only in our minds.. ya know the carnal mind.

So you don't believe that the Father and the Son are one the same way that the church is to be one then?

John 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.


And anyone who believes that the father and the son are one even as the church is to be one is using acarnal mind? Because scripture says it.

 

[hybrid]

2dl,
you are the one insisting that they are two or three separate beings.
to believe that is to deny christ's binding power to unite everyone to god

can't you see what you are doing. you believe in the eventual unity of everything to god and in the same breath insist that the uniting agent (christ) is separate from that which we ought to be united.(father)

 

[2ducklow]

2dl,
you are the one insisting that they are two or three separate beings.
to believe that is to deny christ's binding power to unite everyone to god

can't you see what you are doing. you believe in the eventual unity of everything to god and in the same breath insist that the uniting agent (christ) is separate from that which we ought to be united.(father)

I never said Jesus is seperate from his Father.

god was in christ. Not god was christ. Jesus isn't his own daddy, and he and his Father are not one unnamed being. You seem to be saying either that Jesus is his own father or that the two beings are one being.


John 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.


John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


1 Corinthians 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

I see nothing in these scriptrues or any scripture that would lead one to believe that Jesus is his own daddy, or that Jesus and his Father are one being. Jesus is a human of body soul and spirit, God on the other hand is omnipresent spirit. so how can a man of body soul and spirit and the ominpresent spirit be one being? and what would that being be? body,soul, humanspirit, spirit being?

 

[hybrid]

I never said Jesus is seperate from his Father.

yes you do, two beings cannot be united into one. they will always be separate by their beingness.

god was in christ.

if you put a rock in a glass of water. you can affirmed till kingdom come that the rock is in the water but they can never be one because they have different substance and don't mix.

Not god was christ. Jesus isn't his own daddy, and he and his Father are not one unnamed being. You seem to be saying either that Jesus is his own father or that the two beings are one being.

no im not saying that. they were either your conclusion or understanding of it. not mine.

the body parts analogy are only to make distinctions between the parts. but if you caaome to think of it a whole body actually has no separation. it seems that ther is in gross observation but if i ask you the question where does the head ends and the neck begins. can you pinpoint an exact location where you can say where the separation is?

 

[2ducklow]

yes you do, two beings cannot be united into one. they will always be separate by their beingness.

if you put a rock in a glass of water. you can affirmed till kingdom come that the rock is in the water but they can never be one because they have different substance and don't mix.

Scripture says God was in christ, I believe scripture.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

god was in christ (2 cor 5.19) literally, and Jesus was in the Father (John 14.20) figuratively in that Jesus always did that which was pleasing to his father, spoke what his father gave him ,submitted to his father etc.

llike wise we are one the same way.

I am in Jesus (john 14.20) figuratively, in that i imbibe the word and apply it to my life, and Jesus is in me (John 14.20) literally in that the spirit of Jesus , the holy spirit is literally in me.

same way God the fAther and Jesus are one. why should i chunk away what scripture says?

no im not saying that. they were either your conclusion or understanding of it. not mine.

THen I don't know what you mean. How are they one then? One what?

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

the bible says that Jesus and the father are one the same way that the church is to be one. I believe the bible.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

scripture says that we the church are made one by christ b eing in us and god being in Christ. I believe the bible.

I don't know what you mean when you say they are one. apparently you don't believe that god the father and Jesus are one even as the church is to be one, as scripture says.

 

[&Abel]

I just thought of another problem with the trinity

jesus's will was slightly different then the will of the father cause he was subject to the temptation of the flesh...near his death he prayed for the cup to be removed(which was not wrong in itself but it showed a slight difference in will) but when you really think about it, this is because the father is not subject to temptation

the resurrected jesus is also not subject to temptation and is no longer fully man fully god...hes just fully god...his flesh is no longer altering his will from that of the father through temptation...jesus did not even consider himself good as a man

 

[hybrid]

I don't know what you mean when you say they are one.

apparently you don't believe that god the father and Jesus are one even as the church is to be one, as scripture says.

if i have already concluded in your first sentence that they are one, how can i deny the latter statement?

you must have missed my additional post above.
i ask you where exactly the point where the head ends and the neck begins so you can say ah there is where the body is separated from the neck?

if there is no separation to speak of, then the head and the body cannot be two beings as you would like to insist. we can say we can distinct the head from the neck but we cannot truly say there is separation. if there is no separation, then they are one.

I just thought of another problem with the trinity

all the problems you stated were only created by your own mind by over analysis. perhaps we should comprehend by our spirit the true meaning of divine unity.

god is in Christ is true. same as Christ is within us is true.
but what the heck does it mean?

 

[&Abel]

do you have anything more constructive to add rather then attacks

perhaps your incapable of comprehending what I'm saying???

the funny thing is I'm fairly certain what I just posted would sync with your belief so why you would attack me without adding anything of refute is beyond me

 

[hybrid]

sorry if you construed my post as an attack and if i misunderstood you.

perhaps my eagerness to emphasize that the conceived separation is only mental. and my intention to impute even a little bit of doubt to question the mind's abilit to comprehend something spiritual had overlook your sensibilities.

 

[&Abel]

np

we are told that all authority has been handed over to jesus until the end where jesus hands back authority to the father so that god will BE all in all

well thats not 100% correct...all rule and authority will be eliminated

there will be no need for authority in the new heavens

 

[New_Found_Faith]

It's a complex concept, but there are ways to simplify it to make it easier to understand.

My concept of the Holy Trinity could be explained as being similar to a single tree branch which holds three leaves.

Although there are three leaves, each separate and individiual, there is only one branch, or one entity, that is God.

Although each leaf is different in some ways than each of the other leaves, each leaf exists as part of the same, single branch.

 

[hybrid]

yes NFF, as long as there is only an "identifiable" distinction with no actually detachment or separation from one another is a good way to understand trinity.

 

[&Abel]

this whole existence is a process and in the end there will be no distinction between us, jesus, the father, the holy spirit(which is a part of us)

but there are distinctions and differences until that time imo

 

[ContraMundum]

So the highly logical non confusing belief of orthodoxy is that God =essence= divine attributes = person= being of power = being of divine essence = person = something that exists which is a being. And the belief that God the Father is the one and only true God who indwellls the man Christ Jesus, and the Holy spirit is the spirit of the one and only true god, which is God the Father is a lot of confusion according to your statement here.

I can't help it if you find it confusing. Judging by your post, you really are confused about it. That's good. According to my post- I did the right thing.

I find the Trinity logical, honest and filled with lovely paradox. I'm sorry all you see is confusion.

 

[&Abel]

doesn't the trinity teach that jesus is fully god and fully man?

but this is not the case since his resurrection

and while I do believe jesus's actions as a man lives on(obviously) he is no longer a man