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Trinity Facts

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by CherubRam, May 27, 2014.

  1. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    What sort proof do you have concernng your claims other than your interpretations of Bible verses?
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Here may be the point that is making this weird. You like to say "It's the Bible" whenever you offer some strange theory. But yet you are a firm defender of a religion that says that the Bible is unreliable and incomplete.

    Your argument, therefore, comes across as "just talk."
     
  3. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    Yeah, yeah. I see you apparently have no response those Bible passages either.

    The Bible is incomplete - it says so. And I have personally found errors introduced by the Catholic church. Even it admits that the Johannine Comma was apparently added by overenthusiastic transcribers from a side note on a manuscript, and it is not found in the other early versions of the Bible such as the Syriac.
     
  4. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    I think this refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon in 586 B.C.
     
  5. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Of course I could. My point was only that it's surprising and somewhat unconvincing to have YOU claiming that WE ought to be guided by the Bible when you don't think it's reliable. At the very least, we should ask why you'd recommend that we be guided by information you consider to be inconclusive at the least? Who would do that?

    There you go! ;)

    And that's all the follow-up explanation I need to make. It had nothing to do with whether or not the Bible is correct.
     
  6. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    There is God's word (The bible) and there is mans interpretations of His word. Now anyone who should notice a contradiction in scriptures should be wise enough to investigate.
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That, however, wasn't the issue and isn't the problem.
     
  8. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    The Bible has been interpreted several times, and some things included or excluded. For instance I do not believe all of the books in the Catholic Bible are inspired. Perhaps you do.


    The Bible refers to books it does not presently contain like the book of Jasher. Revelation also tells us God is not finished speaking to us unless you don't believe it either. It says God's mystery is not finished and that the 2 witnesses will prophesy - unless you believe they already have. I know orthodoxy has a hard time believing all of the Bible, but there YOU go.
     
  9. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Do you seriously think that I do? :doh:
     
  10. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    I am just pointing out my friend why I believe the Bible is not perfect, and why God had to step in and take corrective measures - because it was altered by Babylon - sometimes to suit her theology. For instance in one version I found "ships of Chittim" in Daniel changed to "ships of Italy" which made it fit with their interpretation of Daniel 11 that Antiochus Epiphanes was the "vile one" who came against the kings of the north and south. The problem is this interpretation causes the vision to fail, and the Jews plainly call Macedonia the land of Chittim in Maccabees - a book they include in their Bible.

    So there definitely are places where the Bible was not translated correctly, but we do have the assurance to Joseph Smith that the KJV is mostly correct and could be used. The more I have learned tho, the more I would like to see changes made in the KJV. I believe restoring the names of God ads a lot to the meaning, and the KJV tends to muddy the waters here.
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Very well. I've heard the position explained before.
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This is LDS propaganda concocted to validate the standard works [SW]. "There were many great and precious things taken out of the Bible so God sent the SW to replace all the missing stuff." That is my paraphrase which gives the general idea. The problem with that is JS did not know that there would be many archaeological discoveries such as Qumran and the DSS which show we have essentially the same OT that Jesus read from. Scholars have determined that more than 90% of the NT can be reproduced from the citations in the early church fathers. So I ask you what was removed or changes and where is your evidence?

    Paul quoted from four Greek poets, Epimenides, Menander, Cleanthus, and Aratus. Should their writings be part of the NT? Just because a writing is mentioned that does not make it scripture.

    More grasping at straws trying to validate the LDS SW. I believe the Bible but there is nothing in the Bible which validates the LDS SW.
     
  13. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    I will direct the reader to what I have already posted. Critics like to make out that LDS have some huge problem with the Bible which we don't. You mention that we "propagandize" against the Bible to validate our standard works - then why is the biggest standard work the KJV? The Bible converted me to the church. B Young spoke about the Bible and said it confirms the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon quotes heavily from Isaiah basically word for word in most instances. It also speaks of the Revelation of John and its importance. The Bible validates our standard works including the D & C so why would we want to invalidate it?

    While quoting Paul may be authoritative, it does not appear that the Lord planned for his letters to be included in any scriptures.

    That is not true. Ezekiel 37 speaks of the stick of Joseph. In the gospel sticks/rods symbolicly represent the word. For instance the branch/rod of Aaron which blooms.
    Isaiah 29 also speaks of a book which shall come forth from the dust of Jerusalem which shall clear up things for the people and teach them true doctrine.
     
  14. stan1953

    stan1953 Well-Known Member

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    Except that you don't give it "final authority" status over the BoM and the teachings of the LDS hierarchy.

    So no of course you wouldn't have a problem with it because if you see that is teaches against the LDS teaching you look for another source to overrule it. God's word, the Bible is the ULTIMATE authority. There is nothing higher but God Himself and He will NEVER contradict or countermand His Word.
     
  15. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    Why should it have "final authority" status over the Book of Mormon if they are both scriptures? Aren't all scriptures given for the benefit of man? Give a specific example where the church has "overruled" the Bible? Good luck there mate, and have fun looking. I should rather enjoy you taking your time, since it should preoccupy you for a very long while. I would say the church gives the KJV Bible special status, and prefers for speakers to adopt its high prose. Now is this true of every Bible? No. I have no problem with overruling the Douay-Rheims Bible, but nice attempt at a straw man argument there Stan. I see you haven't changed.
     
  16. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    You missed the point of reference to Zechariah 12. I assume some things that I tell others will be understood without spelling them out. In this case look back to the beginning of the chapter, even to verse one. Throughout, it is Yahweh speaking, no other speaker is introduced and is Christ who is fulfillment of this prophecy that Yahweh says of himself. It applies whether he said, "on me" or "to me".

    You were already told your examples are not three different words. Who is it that is misleading? Should you be judging the motives of any one, even the translators, whose motive was said to be devious?

    I am not even using the word "Godhead", so an argument about that doesn't even apply, I am using Bible passages themselves that make the points. I showed that Yahweh shares his glory with no one else. To spell it out now, in 1 Timothy 3:16 He was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels,preached among the gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory. Hebrews 2:7 shows that the Son is crowned with glory and honor. In all things he has preeminence, Colossians 1:18. In Philippians 2 it shows that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of those in heaven and those on earth and under the earth, every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. This glory to Jesus is that of Yahweh, that he would not share with any other one. He is Yahweh. He is fully in union with the heavenly Father. There is more scripture to get to, if it is needed to be shown that the Spirit of God is included with them.
     
  17. stan1953

    stan1953 Well-Known Member

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    Well they aren't.

    The Bible is established, authored and inspired of God, the BoM is NOT.

    I really don't have the inclination, time nor does CF have space for me to do all that. Suffice it to say any time I have witnessed to elders, they have always gone to the BoM when the Bible, even the KJV, refutes them. Why anyone would use the KJV or D-R today ,is beyond me, seeing as we have many more current and better modern English translations available?
    Sorry I don't know you nor do I recognize you but then again I don't hide behind an anonymous user name. I use my first name on ALL forums I am on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2014
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Has not the JST replaced the KJV as the LDS go to Bible? What happens when the BOM says exactly the opposite of what the KJV says in Isaiah?

    Isa 2:9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.

    2 Nephi 12:9
    9
    And the mean man boweth not down, and the great man humbleth himself not, therefore, forgive him not.​

    The entire book of Isaiah was found in the dead sea scrolls dating to about 100 years BC, so we know the Bible is correct. Therefore the BOM is not correct at 2 Nephi 12:9

    And you determined this how?

    I have heard this before but I have never found one verse in the OT where "stick" represents word, symbolically or any other way. Were one to read Ezekiel 37:17-22, in context, one would know it has absolutely nothing to do with a supposed rod of Joseph 2100 years +/- in the future.

    Eze 37:16 Son of man, take for thyself a rod, and write upon it, Juda, and the children of Israel his adherents; and thou shalt take for thyself another rod, and thou shalt inscribe it for Joseph, the rod of Ephraim, and all the children of Israel that belong to him.​

    The stick or rod of Joseph refers to Joseph, Ephraim and the children of Israel not Joseph Smith 1000s of years later.

    17 And thou shalt joint them together for thyself, so as that they should bind themselves into one stick; and they shall be in thine hand.
    18 And it shall come to pass, when the children of thy people shall say to thee, [Ezekiel] Wilt thou not tell us what thou meanest by these things?
    19 Then shalt thou say to them, Thus saith the Lord; behold, I will take the tribe of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel that belong to him, and I will add them to the tribe of Juda, and they shall become one rod in the hand of Juda.​

    Note when the children of Israel ask Ezekiel what the two joined rods mean he is to tell them that the tribes of Joseph and Israel will become one in the hand of Juda. This has nothing to do with any book associated with Joseph Smith 2100 years +/- later.

    20 And the rods on which thou didst write shall be in thine hand in their presence.
    21 And thou shalt say to them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the whole house of Israel out of the midst of the nations, among whom they have gone, and I will gather them from all that are round about them, and I will bring them into the land of Israel.
    22 And I will make them a nation in my land, even on the mountains of Israel; and they shall have one prince: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided any more at all into two kingdoms:​

    And this has nothing to do with the events of Ezekiel 37. The book in Isaiah 29 is not a actual book, at all, it is a parable describing how God will deal with the city of Ariel. All the events in Isa 29:1-10 are as a sealed book to the city. There is no actual book.

    Isa 29:11 And all these things shall be to you as the words of this sealed book, which if they shall give to a learned man, saying, Read this, he shall then say, I cannot read it, for it is sealed.
    12 And this book shall be given into the hands of a man that is unlearned, and one shall say to him, Read this; and he shall say, I am not learned.
    13 And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.
    14 Therefore behold I will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them: and I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will hide the understanding of the prudent.​

    Note after the parable, God will proceed to remove this people. Did this ever happen after Joseph's book?
     
  19. RevelationTestament

    RevelationTestament Our God is a consuming fire.

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    Have you ever heard of scrivener's error? The Jews weren't absolutely perfect and made scrivener's errors. This is apparently a case. Why would you not forgive someone who IS humbling themselves? That is the opposite of what the Lord taught.

    My opinion.

    Numbers 17:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and take of every one of them a rod according to the house of their fathers, of all their princes according to the house of their fathers twelve rods: write thou every man’s name upon his rod.

    3 And thou shalt write Aaron’s name upon the rod of Levi: for one rod shall be for the head of the house of their fathers.

    4 And thou shalt lay them up in the tabernacle of the congregation before the testimony, where I will meet with you.

    5 And it shall come to pass, that the man’s rod, whom I shall choose, shall blossom: and I will make to cease from me the murmurings of the children of Israel, whereby they murmur against you.
    This is a foreshadow of the gospel being opened to the Hebrews in the last days.

    It refers to the gospel given through Joseph of Egypt and his sons Manasseh and Ephraim, which is why the stick is "written" upon.
    Yes, they shall become one in the word.
    20 ¶And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
    The sticks are not quite them if they are being held before their eyes? Why? So they can see and understand the law.

    The two books of the Bible and the Book of Mormon will be one before their eyes. They shall know and see the effect of every vision.

    yep

    Just because a book is sealed does not mean that it is not an actual book. Daniel was sealed. Is it an actual book?

    Ariel is Jerusalem. I don't see what you see. The chapter starts by saying that the Lord will cast up forces against the city of Ariel, and this did happen. I don't see anything later in the chapter about the people being "removed."

    18 ¶And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

    19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

    20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

    21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

    22 Therefore thus saith the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.

    23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

    24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

    And no, this has not happened yet.
     
  20. 2ducklow

    2ducklow angel duck

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    Isa. 2. 8 And filled is their land with idols,--To the work of their own hands, do they bow themselves down, To that which they made with their own fingers. 9 So the mean man boweth down And the great man stoopeth low,--Therefore do not thou forgive them! (Rotherham)

    the mean man and the great man bowed down to idols, according to verse 8, so then it would be appropriate in that situation for them not to be forgiven.
     
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