Trinity Facts

[RevelationTestament]

I don't really think that the Book of Mormon --or Doctrines and Covenants or the Pearl of Great Price--adds clarity to this particular discussion.

I agree. All I need are the words of the Bible and our Savior who stressed that the law cannot be broken and called them elohim. If it meant judges, Jesus wouldn't have even brought it up, because it would not have been a defense. That is just something the orthodox have thought up to make it fit their doctrines, but it doesn't fit.

 

[CherubRam]

OK. If you also agree that one of his titles is "the Word of God" then I'm ready to move on.

Yes, One of Christ name titles is "the word of God."

 

[OldWiseGuy]

(Rotherham) Matthew 3:11 I, indeed, am immersing you, in water, unto repentance,--but, he who, after me, cometh is, mightier than I, whose, sandals, I am not worthy to bear, he, will immerse you, in Holy Spirit and fire:

..........I take immersion or baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire spoken of in matthew 3.11 to mean immersion in the holy spirit and the fire portion refers to speaking in tongues. According to acts 2.33 God poured out this (spirit baptism and speaking in tongues) that happened on the day of Pentecost.

Here's the whole context of John's statement in verse 11.

Matthew 3

1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Hope this helps.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree. All I need are the words of the Bible and our Savior who stressed that the law cannot be broken and called them elohim. If it meant judges, Jesus wouldn't have even brought it up, because it would not have been a defense. That is just something the orthodox have thought up to make it fit their doctrines, but it doesn't fit.

Here is my response to that earlier in this thread.

Absoloutely false! There is no, zero, none scripture to back this up. Not John 10:35 and certainly not Psalm 82:6. SeeTargum Psalms 82 and the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation. Only contentious 20th century unscriptural later theological systems claim those passages say that ordinary men will be gods. Which OBTW co0ntradicts several passages in the OT where YHWH said there was no elohim before Him no elohim with Him and no elohim after Him.

6. I said, “You are reckoned as angels, and all of you are like angels of the height.”
7. But truly you will die like the sons of men; and like one of the leaders you will fall.

Psa 82:6 I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High.
Psa 82:7 Nevertheless ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.'​

If the judges in Psalm 82 were elohim in any sense they would not have died as men. And if one were to actually read Psalm 82 and how Jesus quoted it, one would see that God was only speaking to the unjust judges of Israel, not the scribes and Pharisees that Jesus was addressing and not all of Israel or all mankind.

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
​

Jesus said "He called them gods unto whom, the word of God came." "Them" not "you" to the scribes and Pharisees! And Jesus did not say "them" including all of Israel or all mankind but a limited "them unto whom the word of God came," Them who were appointed judges.

Further note that in Psalm 82 it does not read "You are gods." It reads "I said you are gods, but..." They were not gods in any sense God only said they were. And to further prove they were not gods in any sense, God said "but you will die like men." Gods with godlike powers do not die like men.

 

[CherubRam]

Psalm 80:15
the root your right hand has planted, the Son you have raised up for yourself.

John 10:34
Yahshua answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’ ? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside — 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

Psalm 82:6
“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ 7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”

Those who have or will receive life immortal are called gods.

Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the Son of Man you have raised up for yourself.


Psalm 110:1
Of David. A psalm. Yahwah said to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”


Matthew 22:44“‘Yahwah said to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’


Matthew 26:64
“You have said so,” Yahshua replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Mark 12:36
David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “‘Yahwah said to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’


Mark 14:62
“Yes,” said Yahshua. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Mark 16:19
After the Lord Yashua had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.


Luke 20:42
David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: “‘Yahwah said to my lord: “Sit at my right hand...


Luke 22:69
But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”


Quotes in Acts 2 are from the Septuagint.

Acts 2:25-27
25 David said about him: “‘I saw Yahwah always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest in hope, 27because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.

Psalm 16:8-11
8 I keep my eyes always on Yahwah. With him at my right hand, I will not be shaken. 9 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, 10 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your holy one see decay.


Acts 2:33
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit, and has poured out what you now see and hear.


Acts 2:34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘Yahwah said to my lord: “Sit at my right hand...


Acts 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.


Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Yahshua standing at the right hand of God.


Acts 7:56
“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”


Romans 8:34
Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Messiah Yahshua who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.


Ephesians 1:20
he exerted when he raised Messiah from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,...


Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you are being raised with Messiah, set your hearts on things above, where Messiah is, seated at the right hand of God.


Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.


Hebrews 1:13
To which of the messengers did God say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”.


Hebrews 8:1
Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,


Hebrews 10:12
But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,


Hebrews 12:2
fixing our eyes on Yahshua, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the stake, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.


1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with messengers, authorities and powers in submission to him.


Ezekiel 4:6
“After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the people of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.

Forty years had passed, from the time of the gathering in of Messiah's preaching, to the destruction of the temple.

 

[Der Alte]

Psalm 80:15
the root your right hand has planted, the Son you have raised up for yourself.

John 10:34
Yahshua answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’ ? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside — 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

Psalm 82:6
“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ 7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”

Those who have or will receive life immortal are called gods.

Neither of the scriptures you quoted, nor any other scriptures support your assertion, "Those who have or will receive life immortal[sic] are called gods." Repeating a false assertion over and over does not make it true.

Matthew 26:64
“You have said so,” Yahshua replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

You have inserted words into the text. There is no Greek word in this verse which can be correctly translated "the Mighty One"

 

[ChetSinger]

Yes, One of Christ name titles is "the word of God."

Cool.

Well, here's something that perhaps you're not aware of. During the Second Temple period, in the Jewish study bibles called "Targums", the term "the Word of the Lord" was used to identify the Lord himself.

For example, who closed up the door of the ark behind Noah? God did, of course:

And those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him. And the Lord shut him in. - ESV

Well, here's the same passage in Targum Jonathan Ben Uzziel, a Jewish study Bible already available in Jesus' day:

And they coming entered, male and female, of all flesh unto him, as the Lord had instructed him; and the Word of the Lord covered over the door of the ark upon the face thereof.

Notice how "the Word of the Lord" is used as a personification of the Lord himself.

Here's another: Who planted the garden in Eden? God did, of course:

And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. - ESV

Here's the same passage in Targum Jonathan Ben Uzziel:

And a garden from the Eden of the just was planted by the Word of the Lord God before the creation of the world, and He made there to dwell the man when He had created him.

Notice again how the term "the Word of the Lord" is used to describe the Lord himself.

English texts of the Targums can be found here:

Pentateuchal Targumim | NTCS – IOTS

The term "the Word of the Lord" is used to identify the Lord himself literally dozens of times. Get a load of this example, from Deuteronomy:

but the Word of the Lord sitteth upon His throne high and lifted up, and heareth our prayer what time we pray before Him and make our petitions.

The "Word of the Lord" sits upon a throne and hears prayers? Who does that but God himself?

Any Jew reading in the Gospel of John "and the Word became flesh and lived among us" would've instantly realized that John was identifying Jesus as divine. Because in Jewish thought of that period, an appearance of the Word of the Lord was an appearance of the Divine himself. John was saying something amazing: it was the Divine pre-incarnate Jesus who had closed the door of the ark behind Noah, planted the garden in Eden, and sat on a throne listening to prayers.

 

[Der Alte]

Cool.

Well, here's something that perhaps you're not aware of. During the Second Temple period, in the Jewish study bibles called "Targums", the term "the Word of the Lord" was used to identify the Lord himself.

For example, who closed up the door of the ark behind Noah? God did, of course:

Well, here's the same passage in Targum Jonathan Ben Uzziel, a Jewish study Bible already available in Jesus' day:

Notice how "the Word of the Lord" is used as a personification of the Lord himself.

Here's another: Who planted the garden in Eden? God did, of course:

Here's the same passage in Targum Jonathan Ben Uzziel:

Notice again how the term "the Word of the Lord" is used to describe the Lord himself.

English texts of the Targums can be found here:

Pentateuchal Targumim | NTCS – IOTS

The term "the Word of the Lord" is used to identify the Lord himself literally dozens of times. Get a load of this example, from Deuteronomy:

The "Word of the Lord" sits upon a throne and hears prayers? Who does that but God himself?

Any Jew reading in the Gospel of John "and the Word became flesh and lived among us" would've instantly realized that John was identifying Jesus as divine. Because in Jewish thought of that period, an appearance of the Word of the Lord was an appearance of the Divine himself. John was saying something amazing: it was the Divine pre-incarnate Jesus who had closed the door of the ark behind Noah, planted the garden in Eden, and sat on a throne listening to prayers.

More information to support this post.

Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.” מאמר/memra which in Aramaic means “word.” The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., began during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.

In the below citation, which is only representative not comprehensive, there are at least eighty examples where the name יהוה/YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with” מאמר/memra.” When John, the Jew, said to his Jewish audience, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.,” he was not saying anything strange or new.

Remember this is not a Trinitarian source, it is the Jewish Encyclopedia prepared by Jewish scholars documenting the historical faith, beliefs, and practices of the ancient Jews. Some interesting quotes from the below article, all from the Targums, before the Christian era, note the parallels with the N.T..

[1] “Deut 4:7 The Word brings Israel nigh unto God and [The Word] sits on [God’s] throne receiving the prayers of Israel.” cf. Re 3:21 Re 22:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[2] “Isa 48:13 His Word has laid the foundation of the earth.” cf. John 1:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[3] “Isa 64;13 So, in the future, shall The Word be the comforter.” cf. John 14:26, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[4] “Zech 12:5 In The Word redemption will be found.” cf. Luke 21:28, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

[5] “Lev 22:12 My Word shall be unto you for a redeeming deity.” cf. Col 1:14, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15, N.T. ca. 70 AD.​

More complete citations.

Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:

In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," [The Word] instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra [The Word]," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). " I will cover thee with My Memra, [My Word] " instead of "My hand " (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra [My Word] shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra, [The Word] " instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes "a sign between My Memra [My Word] and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra [His Word] has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, [The Word] not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra [The Word] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" " (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). . . So, in the future, shall the Memra [The Word] be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra [My Word] shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).

The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41). "In the Memra [The Word] the redemption will be found " (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).

Jewish Encylopædia online​

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Trinity and Messiah 2 | Bjorkbloggen

 

[Der Alte]

Trinity and Messiah 2 | Bjorkbloggen

This is a discussion forum where we discuss topics not a dueling links site. Many assertions have been made in this thread. If you disagree with some or all of those assertions state your objection and support it with scripture or quotes from scholarly sources, such as lexicons, concordances, etc.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Here is my response to that earlier in this thread.



If the judges in Psalm 82 were elohim in any sense they would not have died as men. And if one were to actually read Psalm 82 and how Jesus quoted it, one would see that God was only speaking to the unjust judges of Israel, not the scribes and Pharisees that Jesus was addressing and not all of Israel or all mankind.

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
​

Jesus said "He called them gods unto whom, the word of God came." "Them" not "you" to the scribes and Pharisees! And Jesus did not say "them" including all of Israel or all mankind but a limited "them unto whom the word of God came," Them who were appointed judges.

Further note that in Psalm 82 it does not read "You are gods." It reads "I said you are gods, but..." They were not gods in any sense God only said they were. And to further prove they were not gods in any sense, God said "but you will die like men." Gods with godlike powers do not die like men.

Jesus did. Methinks you protest too much.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus did. Methinks you protest too much.

So you think that all the little godlets in the world, exalting themselves to be god are equal to God? When those corrupt judges in Psalm 82 died like men, did their deaths atone for the sins of all mankind or serve any other higher purpose? Jesus was God become man. Not a man become god.

 

[stan1953]

This is a discussion forum where we discuss topics not a dueling links site. Many assertions have been made in this thread. If you disagree with some or all of those assertions state your objection and support it with scripture or quotes from scholarly sources, such as lexicons, concordances, etc.

 

[RevelationTestament]

So you think that all the little godlets in the world, exalting themselves to be god are equal to God? When those corrupt judges in Psalm 82 died like men, did their deaths atone for the sins of all mankind or serve any other higher purpose?

Of course not - well, except for the prophets, who sealed their testimony and God's word with their deaths. And they aren't godlets. They are Elohim with YHWH Elohim - part of the family of stone of God or unmoving force. 1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. What do you believe the temple of God is?

Jesus was God become man. Not a man become god.

The Bible teaches differently.
Hebrews 5:5
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 1:4
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 5:9
"9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

 

[BelCantoBaptist]

Of course not - well, except for the prophets, who sealed their testimony and God's word with their deaths. And they aren't godlets. They are Elohim with YHWH Elohim - part of the family of stone of God or unmoving force. 1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
The Bible teaches differently.
Hebrews 5:5
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 1:4
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 5:9
"9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Read Hebrews 1:8-10. It'll blow your mind.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Read Hebrews 1:8-10. It'll blow your mind.

I have:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

It's amazing the "selective" glasses orthodoxy uses to read the scriptures.

 

[BelCantoBaptist]

I have:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

It's amazing the "selective" glasses orthodoxy uses to read the scriptures.

What you're failing to do is properly exegete the Scriptures. In fact you are the one "selectively" reading the Scriptures. According to your own LDS church the Bible isn't even translated correctly or able to be understood.
I've put the emphasis on the proper part of that verse.


There is one God and always will be one God only for all eternity (Isaiah 43:10,11, Isaiah 44:8, Isaiah 45:21, Hosea 13:4) No one "becomes God" as God has always existed from all eternity and always will exist.

But the author of Hebrews is quoting Psalm 102:25-27 and directly applying a Psalm about God to Jesus. In fact, Jesus is called God by God the Father the first person in the Trinity in that exact verse you quote.

 

[RevelationTestament]

What you're failing to do is properly exegete the Scriptures.

What orthodoxy always says when the scriptures disagree with their theology. I am just reading the scriptures plainly to expose their true meaning. Orthodoxy says "no, this can't be possible. Let us rationalize."

In fact you are the one "selectively" reading the Scriptures. According to your own LDS church the Bible isn't even translated correctly or able to be understood.

Joseph Smith had a chance to correct the Bible to the extent necessary, and didn't really come up with any earth shattering differences, so I'm pretty good with the KJV.

I've put the emphasis on the proper part of that verse.

And I put some emphasis on the "unproper" part orthodoxy chooses to ignore - that we are Christ's fellows - His spiritual brother. Just like LDS teach. Thanks. That He was begotten as the Son, and became our Savior by inheritance.

There is one God and always will be one God only for all eternity (Isaiah 43:10,11, Isaiah 44:8, Isaiah 45:21, Hosea 13:4) No one "becomes God" as God has always existed from all eternity and always will exist.

But the author of Hebrews is quoting Psalm 102:25-27 and directly applying a Psalm about God to Jesus. In fact, Jesus is called God by God the Father the first person in the Trinity in that exact verse you quote.

You show a lack of understanding of God. Yes Jesus is YHWH Elohim, and the Bible shows He became YHWH Elohim with the Father. That is not a new God. That is the same Elohim. See how that works? And Jesus promises that we can become one with them - elohim with them, and there will be one elohim. Not a new elohim formed - pretty simple really.

 

[BelCantoBaptist]

What orthodoxy always says when the scriptures disagree with their theology. I am just reading the scriptures plainly to expose their true meaning. Orthodoxy says "no, this can't be possible. Let us rationalize."

Nothing but fallacy and ad hominem here.

Joseph Smith had a chance to correct the Bible to the extent necessary, and didn't really come up with any earth shattering differences, so I'm pretty good with the KJV.

Sorry but JSmith's version drastically edited the Bible to insert JSmith's bias into it much like the NWT does.

And I put some emphasis on the "unproper" part orthodoxy chooses to ignore - that we are Christ's fellows - His spiritual brother. Just like LDS teach. Thanks. That He was begotten as the Son, and became our Savior by inheritance.

Which goes contrary to the ENTIRETY of Scripture. We are not gods. Nor will we ever be gods. Nor is there anywhere that teaches that God had sex with "heavenly mother" to create Jesus and Lucifer and us. Jesus was not begotten nor did He become our savior by any sort of "inheritance." Jesus always was, always will be, and is, God, Yaweh, Jehovah.

You show a lack of understanding of God.

I don't think I lack understanding of God, I think I just reject the LDS notion of a God who was once a man who sinned which is contrary to the Scriptures.

Yes Jesus is YHWH Elohim, and the Bible shows He became YHWH Elohim with the Father. That is not a new God.

Nope, Jesus always was, is, and always will be God. That's what the Bible shows (before Abraham was I AM, John 1:1, etc.)

That is the same Elohim. See how that works? And Jesus promises that we can become one with them - elohim with them, and there will be one elohim. Not a new elohim formed - pretty simple really.

Pretty unscriptural too. Jesus never said that we could become gods with them. It's pretty clear in the Bible there is only one God and always will be only one God and no others.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Nothing but fallacy and ad hominem here.

If the Bible is fallacy. You don't like what it says?

Sorry but JSmith's version drastically edited the Bible to insert JSmith's bias into it much like the NWT does.

You will notice I didn't use the JST. I virtually always quote from the KJV unless I say otherwise so your own prejudice against JS is moot.

Which goes contrary to the ENTIRETY of Scripture.

Notice the ad hominem argument with complete lack of scripture.

We are not gods.

I didn't say you are. I said the Bible says the Jews are.

Nor will we ever be gods.

You probably won't any time soon.

Nor is there anywhere that teaches that God had sex with "heavenly mother" to create Jesus and Lucifer and us.

I agree.

Jesus was not begotten nor did He become our savior by any sort of "inheritance."

I take it you don't believe the Bible then? Hebrews says He obtained His name by inheritance.

Jesus always was, always will be, and is, God, Yaweh, Jehovah.

Nope. He inherited the office of Son by covenant oath from the Father, and is YHWH Elohim with the Father. He will inherit the mountains of the Father, and be called the Father - your man made trinity idea will be completely smitten into the dust.

I don't think I lack understanding of God, I think I just reject the LDS notion of a God who was once a man who sinned which is contrary to the Scriptures.

Actually, the scriptures say Jesus saw everything the Father did and did likewise.

Nope, Jesus always was, is, and always will be God. That's what the Bible shows (before Abraham was I AM, John 1:1, etc.)

Here orthodoxy is wrong again believing Jesus to be referring to Exodus. But He was referring to Genesis. Genesis 17:1
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God[El Shaddai]; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Orthodoxy also calls the Father El Shaddai in the creeds, when in fact this is Jesus, and it doesn't mean "Almighty God" either, but God who weans from the breast. The fact that Jesus preexisted this creation as the Son, proves nothing about his prior status. Hebrews makes it clear that He was begotten as the Son, and raised up to God.

Pretty unscriptural too. Jesus never said that we could become gods with them. It's pretty clear in the Bible there is only one God and always will be only one God and no others.

Jesus said the Jews were already elohim. The scriptures teach their name will remain in the new world God will create. God said: "I am Elohim of elohim" which gets translated into "I am a God of gods" in the KJV because it doesn't really understand God. Elohim doesn't even mean God - that is a Greek influence. It means more like a family of stone. Christ is the chief cornerstone. Paul did say Christ gave us power to become sons of God. You do not hear Jesus' words anymore than the Jews did.