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Isa. 2. 8 And filled is their land with idols,--To the work of their own hands, do they bow themselves down, To that which they made with their own fingers. 9 So the mean man boweth down And the great man stoopeth low,--Therefore do not thou forgive them! (Rotherham)

the mean man and the great man bowed down to idols, according to verse 8, so then it would be appropriate in that situation for them not to be forgiven.

Rotherham goes on to translate:
11 The lofty looks of mean men, shall be humbled, And, the haughtiness of great men, shall be bowed down,--And Yahweh alone shall be exalted in that day.

So the mean man was not humble, but YHWH will make him so, and was not bowed down, but YHWH will make it so. This supports the JST exactly in meaning.
 
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Der Alte

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Have you ever heard of scrivener's error? The Jews weren't absolutely perfect and made scrivener's errors. This is apparently a case. Why would you not forgive someone who IS humbling themselves? That is the opposite of what the Lord taught.

Were you to actually to read the passage in-context you would find that there were no so-called Scrivener's error in Isa 2:9 and it did not need "correcting"

LXXEng Isa 2:8 And the land is filled with abominations, even the works of their hands; and they have worshipped the works which their fingers made.
Isa 2:9 And the mean man bowed down, and the great man was humbled: and I will not pardon them.​

Their land was full of idols and the people were worshipping, bowing down and humbling themselves to those idols. That is why God would not forgive them. I said that the complete book of Isaiah was found in Qumran/DSS, dating to 100 BC, it reads exactly as our current versions. This is the OT that Jesus read. I don't recall Jesus saying anything about scrivener's errors. Above I quoted from the 250 BC Septuagint. Note it also reads as our current versions. The Bible is correct thus the BOM is wrong. This cannot be explained away!

Numbers 17:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and take of every one of them a rod according to the house of their fathers, of all their princes according to the house of their fathers twelve rods: write thou every man’s name upon his rod.
3 And thou shalt write Aaron’s name upon the rod of Levi: for one rod shall be for the head of the house of their fathers.
4 And thou shalt lay them up in the tabernacle of the congregation before the testimony, where I will meet with you.
5 And it shall come to pass, that the man’s rod, whom I shall choose, shall blossom: and I will make to cease from me the murmurings of the children of Israel, whereby they murmur against you.

This is a foreshadow of the gospel being opened to the Hebrews in the last days.

It refers to the gospel given through Joseph of Egypt and his sons Manasseh and Ephraim, which is why the stick is "written" upon.

This is incorrect this says nothing about the gospel but you are correct it refers to "Joseph of Egypt and his sons Manasseh and Ephraim," not Joseph Smith 2000 years +/- later. The people of Israel had rebelled against Moses and Aaron, chap. 16, and the blossoming of Aaron's rod showed that God had chosen him.

Yes, they shall become one in the word.

Nothing in the passage refers to one in the word but the divided tribes are reunited.

20 ¶And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
The sticks are not quite them if they are being held before their eyes? Why? So they can see and understand the law.

The rods represent the people and the joining of the two rods shows how God will reunite the divided tribes.

The two books of the Bible and the Book of Mormon will be one before their eyes. They shall know and see the effect of every vision.

The passage says nothing about the Bible or the BOM.

Just because a book is sealed does not mean that it is not an actual book. Daniel was sealed. Is it an actual book?

When you respond to my post please extend me the courtesy of reading what I wrote.

DA said:
The book in Isaiah 29 is not a actual book, at all, it is a parable describing how God will deal with the city of Ariel/Jerusalem. All the events in Isa 29:1-10 are as a sealed book to the people. There is no actual book.

Isa 29:11 And all these things shall be to you as the words of a sealed book, which if they shall give to a learned man, saying, Read this, he shall then say, I cannot read it, for it is sealed.
12 And this book shall be given into the hands of a man that is unlearned, and one shall say to him, Read this; and he shall say, I am not learned.
13 And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.
14 Therefore behold I will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them: and I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will hide the understanding of the prudent.​

Note after the parable, God will proceed to remove this people, vs. 14. Did this ever happen after Joseph's book?

Please note vs. "all these things" in vss. 1-10 shall be to you, Jerusalem, not a people 2000 years +/- later, "as the words of a sealed book," not an actual book.

Ariel is Jerusalem. I don't see what you see. The chapter starts by saying that the Lord will cast up forces against the city of Ariel, and this did happen. I don't see anything later in the chapter about the people being "removed."

Please read isa 29:14. After all the preceding events, vs. 1-13 God "will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them:" When did this happen to any people after Joseph Smith's book?

Isa 29:14 Therefore behold I will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them: and I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will hide the understanding of the prudent.​

18 ¶And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
22 Therefore thus saith the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

And no, this has not happened yet.

Correct. "In that day," refers to the day of the Lord. This passage is a prophecy of a future event. But his does not alter the meaning of the previous verses.
 
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Der Alte

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Rotherham goes on to translate:
11 The lofty looks of mean men, shall be humbled, And, the haughtiness of great men, shall be bowed down,--And Yahweh alone shall be exalted in that day.

So the mean man was not humble, but YHWH will make him so, and was not bowed down, but YHWH will make it so. This supports the JST exactly in meaning.

Nonsense Rotherham does not support the JST. This is the fallacy of quote mining. Searching high and low for a source which supports one's assumptions/presuppositions and presenting that source as the be all, end all authority on the topic. Two of the versions quoted are dated 200-300 BC. And they all read as our current English versions. The Bible is correcxt at Isa 2:9 and the BOM is wrong.

1917 Jewish Publication Society translation Isa 2:8 Their land also is full of idols; every one worshippeth the work of his own hands, that which his own fingers have made.
Isa 2:9 And man boweth down, and man lowereth himself; and Thou canst not bear with them.

250 BC LXX Isa 2:8 And the land is filled with abominations, even the works of their hands; and they have worshipped the works which their fingers made.
Isa 2:9 And the mean man bowed down, and the great man was humbled: and I will not pardon them.

200-300 BC Targum Isa 2:8 Their land is also full of idols ; they prostrate themselves to the work of their own hands, to that which is shaped by their own fingers.
9 The common man shall be humbled, and the strength of the great men shall become weak ; and Thou shalt not pardon them.​
 
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2ducklow

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Rotherham goes on to translate:
11 The lofty looks of mean men, shall be humbled, And, the haughtiness of great men, shall be bowed down,--And Yahweh alone shall be exalted in that day.

So the mean man was not humble, but YHWH will make him so, and was not bowed down, but YHWH will make it so. This supports the JST exactly in meaning.
I never heard of shriveners error so I looked it up.

Doctrine of Scrivener's error is a legal principle which permits a typographical error in a written contract to be corrected by parol evidence if the evidence is clear, convincing, and precise. However if such correction affects property rights then it must be approved by those affected by it. Scrivener's error is an error due to a minor mistake or inadvertence and not one that occurs from judicial reasoning or determination.
Doctrine of Scrivener's Error Law & Legal Definition

I've never heard of this doctrine being applied to anything before. But scriptures that have much support in Greek NT manuscripts are sometimes considered valid or invalid based on internal and external evidence and other considerations even though the manuscript support isn't there.

AS to your argument, I guess one can see that verse either way. Which proves a previous point of mine, everyone is immune to critics.
 
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RevelationTestament

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Were you to actually to read the passage in-context you would find that there were no so-called Scrivener's error in Isa 2:9 and it did not need "correcting"

LXXEng Isa 2:8 And the land is filled with abominations, even the works of their hands; and they have worshipped the works which their fingers made.
Isa 2:9 And the mean man bowed down, and the great man was humbled: and I will not pardon them.​

Their land was full of idols and the people were worshipping, bowing down and humbling themselves to those idols. That is why God would not forgive them. I said that the complete book of Isaiah was found in Qumran/DSS, dating to 100 BC, it reads exactly as our current versions. This is the OT that Jesus read. I don't recall Jesus saying anything about scrivener's errors. Above I quoted from the 250 BC Septuagint. Note it also reads as our current versions. The Bible is correct thus the BOM is wrong. This cannot be explained away!
The Septuagint is a Greek translation from the Hebrew supposedly, which I have found errors in, such as El Shaddai, becoming "Almighty God." I know we disagree here but there is nothing to support this translation - El Gibbor, yes. El Shaddai, no. Nevertheless as translation it is subject to any earlier scrivener's error. Further, not all Joseph Smith's changes were to correct errors but some were to clarify the meaning - either could be the case here.



This is incorrect this says nothing about the gospel but you are correct it refers to "Joseph of Egypt and his sons Manasseh and Ephraim," not Joseph Smith 2000 years +/- later. The people of Israel had rebelled against Moses and Aaron, chap. 16, and the blossoming of Aaron's rod showed that God had chosen him.
It doesn't have to say anything about the gospel. It is symbolism which you apparently don't understand. You say the rod is the people but look elsewhere:
Revelation 2:27
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Revelation 19:15
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The rod of iron is not the people. It is the word.



Nothing in the passage refers to one in the word but the divided tribes are reunited.
Yes, it refers to writing on each stick/rod. Writing on the forehead is the word or law.

The rods represent the people and the joining of the two rods shows how God will reunite the divided tribes.
Only indirectly. The rods are the law written through the 2 tribes.

The passage says nothing about the Bible or the BOM.
The Bible was written through Judah. And the Book of Mormon was written through Manasseh.

When you respond to my post please extend me the courtesy of reading what I wrote.
I did.

Please note vs. "all these things" in vss. 1-10 shall be to you, Jerusalem, not a people 2000 years +/- later, "as the words of a sealed book," not an actual book.

Please read isa 29:14. After all the preceding events, vs. 1-13 God "will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them:" When did this happen to any people after Joseph Smith's book?

Isa 29:14 Therefore behold I will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them: and I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will hide the understanding of the prudent.​
I don't know what Bible version you are using but the KJV speaks quite differently at 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
 
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stan1953

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The Septuagint is a Greek translation from the Hebrew supposedly, which I have found errors in, such as El Shaddai, becoming "Almighty God." I know we disagree here but there is nothing to support this translation - El Gibbor, yes. El Shaddai, no. Nevertheless as translation it is subject to any earlier scrivener's error. Further, not all Joseph Smith's changes were to correct errors but some were to clarify the meaning - either could be the case here.

Let's have some clarification.

The LXX was written by Jewish scholars who saw their own language disappearing and realized they needed a Greek version.
They knew what they were doing. Do you?
I get quite frustrated by armchair translators so please qualify your assertions by itemizing your creds?
 
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Ironhold

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Well they aren't.

The Bible is established, authored and inspired of God, the BoM is NOT.

...and your evidence for this is...?

Suffice it to say any time I have witnessed to elders, they have always gone to the BoM when the Bible, even the KJV, refutes them.

Have an example?

Why anyone would use the KJV or D-R today ,is beyond me, seeing as we have many more current and better modern English translations available?

There are multiple reasons, actually.

First and foremost is tradition, with these works being passed down for generations.

From there, we have the fact that the KJV is in the public domain, meaning that the text itself is freely available for reproduction and reuse as people see fit; as a result, the KJV is in many areas far more common than the newer translations, which are still under copyright and so their release - and, to some extent, price - is still set by the copyright owner & publisher.
 
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stan1953

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...and your evidence for this is...?

It is internal, within the Bible, and is confirmed by the Holy Spirit.


Have an example?

Yes, but suffice it so say that IS my experience and detailing it won't change the facts, even in your eyes.

There are multiple reasons, actually.
First and foremost is tradition, with these works being passed down for generations.

From there, we have the fact that the KJV is in the public domain, meaning that the text itself is freely available for reproduction and reuse as people see fit; as a result, the KJV is in many areas far more common than the newer translations, which are still under copyright and so their release - and, to some extent, price - is still set by the copyright owner & publisher.

Jesus made it clear what He thought of men's traditions.

You have nullified the word of God on account of your tradition. Matt 15:6

I use Biblegateway.com and don't pay a dime for it. Every church I have ever attended, gives away cheap non-KJV paperback bibles.
There is no valid reasons, just excuses.
 
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RevelationTestament

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Let's have some clarification.

The LXX was written by Jewish scholars who saw their own language disappearing and realized they needed a Greek version.
They knew what they were doing. Do you?
I get quite frustrated by armchair translators so please qualify your assertions by itemizing your creds?

Go ahead and get frustrated all you want.
Firstly, that was not the purported reason the LXX was created. It was supposedly created at the behest of a pagan king who thought he was a god - no one seems to wonder why he would pay 70 Jews to translate their bible.
Secondly I would be happy to discuss the inaccuracies of the story making the above claim, including obvious errors in the letter of Aristeas used to validate the LXX which reveal it to be a fake.

As for the translation itself, "Almighty God" supposedly comes from El Shaddai. The only justification for this translation is that it came from the root verb shadad or to destroy. If you want to defend this nonsense, by all means...
You will find Jews say Shaddai has no root, therefore, shadad cannot be its root. Next, how do you turn "destroyer god" into the Almighty? El Gibbor means the Mighty God or Almighty God. So please go ahead....
Lastly the double d in Shaddai indicates this is a simple conjunction from shad [breast] and dai[enough] resulting in God says enough breast or God who weans from the breast which makes sense since we find the Lord telling Abraham to be perfect. The NT makes it clear this is Christ. Your turn. :D
 
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Der Alte

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Go ahead and get frustrated all you want.
Firstly, that was not the purported reason the LXX was created. It was supposedly created at the behest of a pagan king who thought he was a god - no one seems to wonder why he would pay 70 Jews to translate their bible.

There is no reason to wonder why the Egytian king Prolemy requested a copy of the T'nakh, he had built a large library and he wanted a copy of the Jewish scriptures for his library. You might have heard about it, the library at Alexandria? He may or may not have thought he was a god, it was common for pagan kings to think that. Which has no relevance re: the LXX.

Secondly I would be happy to discuss the inaccuracies of the story making the above claim, including obvious errors in the letter of Aristeas used to validate the LXX which reveal it to be a fake.

The alleged inaccuracies and the alleged errors which do not prove anything.

Jewish Encyclopedia - Bible Translations-The Septuagint.

The oldest and most important of all the versions made by Jews is that called "The Septuagint" ("Interpretatio septuaginta virorum" or "seniorum"). It is a monument of the Greek spoken by the large and important Jewish community of Alexandria; not of classic Greek, nor even of the Hellenistic style affected by Alexandrian writers. If the account given by Aristeas be true, some traces of Palestinian influence should be found; but a study of the Egyptian papyri, which are abundant for this particular period, is said by both Mahaffy and Deissmann to show a very close similarity between the language they represent and that of the Septuagint, not to mention the Egyptian words already recognized by both Hody and Eichhorn. These papyri have in a measure reinstated Aristeas (about 200 B.C.) in the opinion of scholars. Upon his "Letter to Philocrates" the tradition as to the origin of the Septuagint rests. It is now believed that even though he may have been mistaken in some points, his facts in general are worthy of credence (Abrahams, in "Jew. Quart. Rev." xiv. 321). According to Aristeas, the Pentateuch was translated at the time of Philadelphus, the second Ptolemy (285-247 B.C.), which translation was encouraged by the king and welcomed by the Jews of Alexandria. Grätz ("Gesch. der Juden," 3d ed., iii. 615) stands alone in assigning it to the reign of Philometor (181-146 B.C.). Whatever share the king may have had in the work, it evidently satisfied a pressing need felt by the Jewish community, among whom a knowledge of Hebrew was rapidly waning before the demands of every-day life.

BIBLE TRANSLATIONS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

As for the translation itself, "Almighty God" supposedly comes from El Shaddai. The only justification for this translation is that it came from the root verb shadad or to destroy. If you want to defend this nonsense, by all means...
You will find Jews say Shaddai has no root, therefore, shadad cannot be its root. Next, how do you turn "destroyer god" into the Almighty? El Gibbor means the Mighty God or Almighty God. So please go ahead....
Lastly the double d in Shaddai indicates this is a simple conjunction from shad [breast] and dai[enough] resulting in God says enough breast or God who weans from the breast which makes sense since we find the Lord telling Abraham to be perfect. The NT makes it clear this is Christ. Your turn. :D

We have had this discussion before and although you have been refuted you continue to propagate this false information.

The majority of Jewish scholars have rejected the speculation that El Shaddai derives from the Hebrew word for "destroy" and the Hebrew word for "breast." In the Hebrew there is no double "D." The double "D" in English proves absolutely nothing about the Hebrew.

The Jews do not say that Shaddai has no root word. The lexical entry shows that Shaddai is the root word it is not derived from any other Hebrew word. Here for all readers to see the lexical entry for שַׁדַּי n.b. the definition does not indicate that it is derived from any other word. The word is comprised of three consonants from left to right shin, daleth, yod. The 2d letter in the word ד corresponds to our "D." There is only one [1] daleth in the word not two. This lexicon is available as a free D/L at Internetarchives along with other references which I cite.

שַׁדַּי m. in pause [Hb.] sdy, the Almighty, the Omnipotent, an epithet or name of Jehovah; sometimes in the Pentateuch preceded by [Hb.] El, as Ex. 6, 3 I appeared unto Abraham . . . [Hb.] bel shdy as God Almighty; but by my name Jehovah (יהוה[size] Jahweh) was I not known unto them. Gen. 17, 1. 28, 3. 35, 11. 43, 14. 48, 3 ; prob. also Gen. 49, 25 [Hb.] eth shdy should be [Hb.] el shdy, as in the Sam. And several Heb.Mss. Elsewhere only once, Ez. 10, 5. In all other examples it is without [Hb.] el, as Num. 24, 4. 16. Ruth 1, 20. 21. Ps. 68, 15. 91, 1. Joel 1, 15. Is.13, 7. Ez. 1, 24. Job 5, 17. 6, 4. 14. 8, 3. 5, and often in this book.— שַׁדַּי is strictly a pluralis majestaticus, from a sing, שד powerful, from r. שדד ; but plurals in י__ are quite doubtful ; see Heb. Gr. ed. 16. § 86. 1. c. More probable is it, therefore, that שַׁדַּי, which never takes the article, is to be regarded as a plural (of 11a) with the suffix of the first person, after the analogy of the form [Hb.] elny, and used at first in direct invocation to God Heb. Gr. § 119. n. 4. 'Hence, pr. Mei potentes, my God ; but afterwards a name of God as Almighty ; comp. [Hb.] elny —Other etymologies see in Thesaur. p. 1366 sq.

A Hebrew And English Lexicon Of The Old Testament, Including The Biblical Chaldee.
From The Latin Of William Gesenius, By Edward Robinson, 18th edition, Boston, 1865


Here is the discussion of the word Shaddai from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. Note that "breast" is not even mentioned and the supposition that the word means "destroy" is also rejected by Jewish scholars.

Names of God-Shaddai and 'Elyon.

The word Shaddai (שַׁדַּי), which occurs along with El, is also used independently as a name of God,chiefly in the Book of Job. It is commonly rendered "the Almighty" (in LXX., sometimes παντοκράτωρ). The Hebrew root "shadad," from which it has been supposed to be derived, means, however, "to overpower," "to treat with violence," "to lay waste." This would give Shaddai the meaning "devastator," or "destroyer," which can hardly be right. It is possible, however, that the original significance was that of "overmastering" or "overpowering strength," and that this meaning persists in the divine name. Another interesting suggestion is that it may be connected with the Assyrian "shadu" (mountain), an epithet sometimes attached to the names of Assyrian deities. It is conjectured also that the pointing of שַׁדַּי may be due to an improbable rabbinical explanation of the word as ("He who is sufficient"), and that the word originally may have been without the doubling of the middle letter. According to Ex. vi. 2, 3, this is the name by which God was known to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

NAMES OF GOD - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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Ironhold

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It is internal, within the Bible, and is confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

If it's in the Bible, then I'm presuming that there are verses to support your stance, correct?

Yes, but suffice it so say that IKS my experience and detailing it won't change the facts, even in your eyes.

That comes off as if you're saying you don't actually have anything.

There is no valid reasons, just excuses.

And you've attended how many different congregations? Where were they located? How wealthy / poor were they?

There are a lot of variables at play here.
 
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stan1953

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If it's in the Bible, then I'm presuming that there are verses to support your stance, correct?

Of course... most Christians know them, don't you?

That comes off as if you're saying you don't actually have anything.

No, that comes from experience. You are not the first Mormon I have debated and you probably won't be the last. Prevaricating about what I do know is just deflection. I have been a Christian for over 43 years and I KNOW the Bible, especially as it relates to those who are NOT Christian.

And you've attended how many different congregations? Where were they located? How wealthy / poor were they?
There are a lot of variables at play here.

All of these questions are irrelevant to the issue at hand. It was sufficient to warrant my claim.
 
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CherubRam

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Basically that is what I am saying. Yahshua is "a god" from the kingdom of heaven, sent by the Father. A body was prepared for Peniel and placed in Mary's womb. He was born into this world and named Yahshua. Peniel was the messenger of Yahuah. God has only one personal name, and that is Yahuah, as written in the scriptures. He has many name titles, Holy Spirit being one of His name titles. Trinitarianism has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Trintarianism was introduced into scriptures by the Catholic Church.

Yahuah and Yahshua are separate persons, they, and we, are called to be one. That is, one in unity.

There is only one true God. The people who have or will have life immortal are also called gods. Trinitarianism is a Pagan belief, it has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Scriptures were altered by the Catholic Church to make it appear as if Trinitarianism is a biblical truth.
Just a reminder.
 
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stan1953

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Just a reminder.

Here's another one for you.

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Is 9:6
 
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CherubRam

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Here's another one for you.

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Is 9:6

This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEAD-ER-S-ING).

The Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).
And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words.

The word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Lead-er-s-ing.

The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “leader.” And the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6 is "leading."

The other alternate Hebrew words for PRINCE are these.
5592. NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times. / 5618. NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times. / 5687. NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times. / 5817. NASIYK (PRINCE-S). 3 times.

You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".

In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD.

In our different bibles, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.


Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is how that verse should read.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, ministering in Peace. ( Or, leading in peace.


If you run the Hebrew word through a Hebrew to English translator is will read “minister.”
 
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Der Alte

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This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEAD-ER-S-ING).

The Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).
And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words.

The word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Lead-er-s-ing.

The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “leader.” And the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6 is "leading."

The other alternate Hebrew words for PRINCE are these.
5592. NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times. / 5618. NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times. / 5687. NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times. / 5817. NASIYK (PRINCE-S). 3 times.

You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".

In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD.

In our different bibles, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is how that verse should read.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, ministering in Peace. ( Or, leading in peace.

If you run the Hebrew word through a Hebrew to English translator is will read “minister.”

I guess the Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars got it wrong in the 200 year BC Aramaic Targum.

TGM Isaiah 9:6 His name is called from eternity, Wonderful, The Mighty God, who liveth to eternity, Wonderful, The Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days.
7. The greatness of those who do the law shall be magnified, and those, that preserve peace. There shall be no end to the throne of David, and of his kingdom, to establish it and to build it in judgment and in righteousness from henceforth, even for ever. By the Word of the Lord of hosts this shall be done.​
 
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stan1953

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This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEAD-ER-S-ING).

The Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).
And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words.

The word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Lead-er-s-ing.

The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “leader.” And the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6 is "leading."

The other alternate Hebrew words for PRINCE are these.
5592. NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times. / 5618. NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times. / 5687. NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times. / 5817. NASIYK (PRINCE-S). 3 times.

You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".

In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD.

In our different bibles, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.


Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is how that verse should read.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, ministering in Peace. ( Or, leading in peace.
If you run the Hebrew word through a Hebrew to English translator is will read “minister.”

The fact is, I quoted from the NIV Bible, so regardless of your armchair Hebrew tactics, they translated it as is shown so I'll go with the credentialed scholars and not with someone equivocating about the Hebrew, when in fact this was probably translated from the LXX.
 
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Ironhold

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Of course... most Christians know them, don't you?

Trying to turn things around like that doesn't work; it merely comes off as if you don't have the references handy and so are stalling.

No, that comes from experience.

If we want to get into things which come from experience, then you're treading on dangerous territory as you're opening the floor up for us to talk about all of the things that mainline Christians have said and done to us over the years.

All of these questions are irrelevant to the issue at hand. It was sufficient to warrant my claim.

Actually, this goes back to my counterpoint about the KJV being readily-available.

You argued that non-KJV Bibles are being given away, but you failed to prove that it's happening on a wide enough scale to put a dent in things.
 
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The unity of Yahweh God is from eternity, with God's self-existence. The distinction as three of who we know from revelation as the heavenly Father, Logos the Word who is with God and is God, and the Spirit of God is according to the distinct offices, that have it necessary from eternity. Yahweh God does not share glory with any other, as said in Isaiah 48:11, for one place, and Logos with God is the same Yahweh God, seen as well in Zechariah 12:10 where its prophecy is about Yahweh, whom is yet to be seen pierced, identified as prophecy about Christ in the new testament of the Bible.

The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede. The word "Godhead" is a translation of three different Greek words, theion (meaning "divinity, deity", # 2304 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Acts 17:29, theiotēs (meaning "divinity, divine nature", # 2305 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Romans 1:20, and theotēs (meaning "deity", # 2320 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Colossians 2:9.
To translate three different Greek words as one word is deviously incorrect. This is not unlike having three different names for one street on a map (with the real name hidden), so that when a person used it, he wound up lost. Likewise of those who read Bibles with "Godhead" in it, thereby misleading a person that the trinity is "real".

Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the One They Pierced

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Footnotes:
a.Zechariah 12:10 Or the Spirit
b.Zechariah 12:10 Or to


You missed the point of reference to Zechariah 12. I assume some things that I tell others will be understood without spelling them out. In this case look back to the beginning of the chapter, even to verse one. Throughout, it is Yahweh speaking, no other speaker is introduced and it is Christ who is fulfillment of this prophecy that Yahweh says of himself. It applies whether he said, "on me" or "to me".

You were already told your examples are not three different words. Who is it that is misleading? Should you be judging the motives of any one, even the translators, whose motive was said to be devious?

I am not even using the word "Godhead", so an argument about that doesn't even apply, I am using Bible passages themselves that make the points. I showed that Yahweh shares his glory with no one else. To spell it out now, in 1 Timothy 3:16 He was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels,preached among the gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory. Hebrews 2:7 shows that the Son is crowned with glory and honor. In all things he has preeminence, Colossians 1:18. In Philippians 2 it shows that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of those in heaven and those on earth and under the earth, every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. This glory to Jesus is that of Yahweh, that he would not share with any other one. He is Yahweh. He is fully in union with the heavenly Father. There is more scripture to get to, if it is needed to be shown that the Spirit of God is included with them.

Excuse me for bumping an answer to objections to me, which was at least overlooked.
 
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