TRINITARIANS: A Question about the Holy Spirit?

[Deren]

Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, the Trinity claim is that God is 3 in 1, each member a person, eternal (without begininning), self-existing, distinct and co-equal to the others. There is no order in this case, and the names like Father and son are merely arbitrary in reality.



If the Holy Spirit is a Distinct person not subjected to God but of equal status, then Trinitarianism makes the Father and Jesus liars in their claims as Father and son. A third party has now become the father. God forbid.

We are talking about 3 distinct PERSONS in 1 here.

So I hope someone can explain to me how the Gospel of Jesus Christ handed to us in the bible became so convoluted?


Thanks in advance!

It's not the the gospel of Jesus Christ, or his incarnation that are convoluted, but often how the latter is understood. And from reading the above, it would appear that your understanding of the incarnation is convoluted, simply because you seem to be under the impression that fatherhood is to be understood in a naturalistic way. Naturalism has nothing to do with either Jesus' conception or incarnation. Supernaturalism does, though, and since the Holy Spirit and God the Father are distinct, as you say, they are harmoniously united in essence, as is the Son, so that when they act in unity, they act as God. They may play different roles in that unity, yet when looked at as one would look at a forest, one does not see individual trees, but the forest itself. Therefore, you may wish to take a step back and see the forest, if you're truly desirous of seeing the incarnation in biblical perspective. Otherwise, you won't be able to see the forest for the trees. Happy viewing!

 

[Fit4Christ]

Thanks for the scripture, F4C, and a very good attempt. I don't disagree.
With regards to "proof"...it shouldn't be our job to convince one another, but to give scriptural evidence to support or claims. We can only know what has been revealed through the scriptures concerning the word of God. Don't you agree?.

By "burden of proof" it can be inferred that we are to convince. I would disagree with that. But, as you said, we are to give scriptural evidences to support our claims. I agree, and the "burden" is upon the receiver of said evidence to discern and allow the Holy Spirit to convict.

No I have not seen the booklet you speak of but should be able to obtain one as there are some Alpha courses going on in my area. Thanks for the offer though. Besides, I prefer talking with you guys. At least I can ask questions if need be.

I will read the scriptures you cited and post accordingly shortly.

OK.

 

[gort]

Did you not read anything I wrote. Genesis is not talking about the creation of "everything". What day were the angels created on? Since in Job we see that they applauded when he created the earth then obvioulsy they were there already before that creation.

ok....one more time.

you stated in http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14820518&postcount=39

He came into existence in the beginning. Rev 3:14 shows this. He is the first of creation.

in this post I asked again:http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14821033&postcount=41

I asked, "When did the Word come into existence?"

thanx

and now, in this post, you are tying to tell me:http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14824574&postcount=49

I think you are talking about time as in hours. I am talking about time in itself. Genesis one is not talking about the creation of everything in the universe because in Job we see that angels were there when God made the earth

.

Genesis 1 IS talking about the creation of the worlds, the heavens.

The "Heavens" are referred to the stars, planets, suns etc.

The Cosmos

NOT Gods Heaven. We can't see that.

ANd in my question, I'm not asking as to the time of Jesus existence.

I'm asking about "When did the Word exist?"

thanx


ps....perhaps we have a miscommunication here, misunderstanding, or maybe daneel forgot to take his pills this morning. I'm not sure if I have clarity regarding where Wiseone77 is at, at this this point, and if someone could point this out to me, I will gladly take a public exercise in embarressment.

thanx

<><

 

[CaliforniaKid]

Did Jesus age? Did Jesus learn? Did Jesus die? All of these things are characteristics of someone who is finite.

When Jesus took on human form, he took on a finite form. But by nature he is infinite. This is clear from Philippians 2:

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death–
even death on a cross! 9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus humbled himself by temporarily suspending his omnipotence and omniscience and taking on human form, thereby becoming a finite being.

It's not in conflict. Time does not exist until someone or something finite comes into being. The Father exists outside of time. Jesus existed in time. Time would not exist when God was alone or even if there were 10 persons who are infinite. Time is a concept for finite beings not infinite ones. Like I have shown several times, Jesus was the first of creation.

It IS in conflict. Time is a dimension. It is inseparable from space. It is part of the fabric of the universe. Time would not have existed until the fabric of the universe was set in place. Thus if Jesus were created before the universe was created, then he would be the firstborn but he would be outside of time. If Jesus were created after the universe were created then he would be (presumably) within time but he would no longer be the firstborn of creation. You can take your pick of these two options, but the way you've described it simply isn't the way things are. Sorry, but those are the facts. Take them or leave them.

-CK

 

[CaliforniaKid]

Cubes, your post about the Samaritan woman story is almost entirely focused upon what Jesus didn't say. But we can't build dogmas upon silence. What we can build dogmas upon is the clear testimony of other parts of scripture where Jesus (or someone else) does say he is God and should be worshipped. For example, there is John 1:1: The Word was God. Or how about John 1:18, where the best and earliest manuscripts say, "No one has ever seen God, but God the unique Son, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." Or how about John 20:28, where Thomas sees him and proclaims, "My Lord and my God!" Or better yet Titus 2:13: "Looking for the blessed hope and coming of our great God and savior, Jesus Christ." Or maybe Isaiah 9:6, where we read, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be one his shoulders, and he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlating Father, Prince of Peace." That's pretty intense stuff!

There are also many incidences of Jesus being worshipped in the Bible. Mt. 2:2, 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 20:20, 28:9, 28:17; Lk. 24:52; John 9:38. In these verses Jesus is worshipped by the disciples, the wise men, a leper, a ruler, a woman of Canaan, the mother of James and John, and a blind man. Additionally, Yahweh himself commands the angels to worship Jesus in Hebrews 1:6. And if you compare Rev. 4:11 to Rev. 5:12, you will see that Jesus and Yahweh here receive the same worship.

-CK

 

[Cubes]

Now, read in between those 2 verses (Gen 1:2) to see the Trinity is complete in the beginning:

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Combine that with John 1:1-2:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

How are those verses not describing a trinitarian nature of God?

They do not describe a trinty nature to me.

Yes, I note the Spirit of GOD hovering over the waters.
God + God's own spirit =One God.
Christ, the word of God = One LORD
Christ and the children of God are baptized into one baptism in the Holy Ghost/Spirit of God so that we can be called the sons of God.


And this takes us back to the OP and why although the holy spirit is the one who overshadowed Mary, Jesus is Called the Son of the Father. He doesn't call two persons Father because there are no two persons, just one. And he doesn't call the Holy Spirit Father, because the spirit is the Father's own spirit.

And this is for you too, Deren.

 

[Cubes]

ok....one more time.

you stated in http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14820518&postcount=39



in this post I asked again:http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14821033&postcount=41



and now, in this post, you are tying to tell me:http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14824574&postcount=49

.

Genesis 1 IS talking about the creation of the worlds, the heavens.

The "Heavens" are referred to the stars, planets, suns etc.

The Cosmos

NOT Gods Heaven. We can't see that.

ANd in my question, I'm not asking as to the time of Jesus existence.

I'm asking about "When did the Word exist?"

thanx


ps....perhaps we have a miscommunication here, misunderstanding, or maybe daneel forgot to take his pills this morning. I'm not sure if I have clarity regarding where Wiseone77 is at, at this this point, and if someone could point this out to me, I will gladly take a public exercise in embarressment.

thanx

<><

Ok, daneel, when did the word exist? Just make your claim.
I cited Genesis 1:3, and WiseOne77 cited Rev 3:14 I believe to indicate that Christ is the beginning of God's creation. You can offer the scriptures you have, surely.

My focus is more with the Spirit of God at this time. As far as I am concerned, you cannot show me a comparative scripture where the Father and son are both mentioned, in which the Father is surbordinate to the son, or any scripture that surbordinates the father at any time to anyone. That speaks for itself, and CK even said that Trinitarians recognize a "de facto" order of authority in the Father.

Beyond that, I would say that even in nature, when children are born....they don't speak right away. Speech is developed later, thus, by the Romans 1:20 principle, God existed before he spoke. Logically speaking, he would have had to.

 

[Cubes]

Cubes, your post about the Samaritan woman story is almost entirely focused upon what Jesus didn't say. But we can't build dogmas upon silence. What we can build dogmas upon is the clear testimony of other parts of scripture where Jesus (or someone else) does say he is God and should be worshipped. For example, there is John 1:1: The Word was God. Or how about John 1:18, where the best and earliest manuscripts say, "No one has ever seen God, but God the unique Son, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." Or how about John 20:28, where Thomas sees him and proclaims, "My Lord and my God!" Or better yet Titus 2:13: "Looking for the blessed hope and coming of our great God and savior, Jesus Christ." Or maybe Isaiah 9:6, where we read, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be one his shoulders, and he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlating Father, Prince of Peace." That's pretty intense stuff!


There are also many incidences of Jesus being worshipped in the Bible. Mt. 2:2, 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 20:20, 28:9, 28:17; Lk. 24:52; John 9:38. In these verses Jesus is worshipped by the disciples, the wise men, a leper, a ruler, a woman of Canaan, the mother of James and John, and a blind man. Additionally, Yahweh himself commands the angels to worship Jesus in Hebrews 1:6. And if you compare Rev. 4:11 to Rev. 5:12, you will see that Jesus and Yahweh here receive the same worship.

-CK

Valid post.


There are many gods but only one true God. Jesus is a god and yes, a great God, but he is not the Almighty God or he would be worshipping himself. That is the equation.

Yes, only the son has seen God.

Thomas and Titus, again, there are many gods...and Jesus himself called men "gods." Jesus of course is above all other gods, with the exception of the father.

Is 9:6: A Son is given. We've already talked about the co-equality b/n father and son. We have been adopted through Christ unto the Father. That makes him fittingly called everlasting father. The Mighty God worships the Almighty God. Speaks for itself.


Indeed God commanded his angels to worship Christ, and in Rev. 4:11 to Rev. 5:12, comparatively, reasons are given for the worship. We worship the One True God because.... and we worship the Lamb because...
And the Lamb of God is seen as just that, the Lamb OF GOD so if the father says worship him, the Father's will is done in heaven and on earth, but it IS the father's will.

**And who do the elders cast their crowns down to? I believe that there are also different forms of worship and the son is not quite worshipped in the same way. Also consider the song of the Lamb & Moses to his Father.

Please feel free to cite any aspect of John 4 for discussion. I was not trying to be evasive as you suggest, I did however focus on the gospel. I thought I was pretty fair.

 

[gort]

Cubes quote:

I cited Genesis 1:3, and WiseOne77 cited Rev 3:14 I believe to indicate that Christ is the beginning of God's creation. You can offer the scriptures you have, surely.

I already have cited the Scriptures that plainly show the Word was God. And we do know that Jesus is the Word. And the Word existed prior to the creation. The Word has co-existed from eternity to eternity.

I wonder how some might think that Jesus could be the beginning of creation, when Jesus created the beginning?

As far as I am concerned, you cannot show me a comparative scripture where the Father and son are both mentioned, in which the Father is surbordinate to the son, or any scripture that surbordinates the father at any time to anyone.

I've never heard that thought before, where the Father is sub-ordinate to the Son. Certainly isn't in the Bible. Nor is the Father sub-ordinate to anyone.


toodles

<><

 

[NEJTiger]

As most non-trinitarians don't believe the Holy Spirit to be God, but something along the lines of the "mind" or "power" of God, my question, is still unanswered.

Also, why can the HS be "grieved"? if it is just the 'mind' or 'power' of God?

And why does Jesus call the HS "HE", if the HS is just the 'mind', or 'power', or 'force' of God?

i'm a non-trinitarian and i believe the Holy Ghost to be God

But to answer your question, to blasphemy the HS would be to do just that. Blasphemy the Holy Spirit.

u still didn't answer my question:

{if the Son and Holy Ghost are coequal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgiveable but blashpemy of the Son is not? that clearly makes one unequal to the other.} this clearly shows inequality.

I diverted nothing. I gave you a direct answer. Stephen directly saw Jesus at the Right Hand of God. Please to read you Scripture. It is also in many other place.

The Son is seated at the Right Hand of God the Father.

<><

i thought thats what u believed, two divine beings. and they are one in unity like a governing council. let me ask, where would the Holy Spirit sit?

 

[NEJTiger]

But in Genesis here, time does'nt start until when?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And as Jesus is the Word, and all things were created through Him, and for Him, where is the Word here in the creation?

It's in the 1st verse.

<><

i can not believe that u are trying to separate God's Word as separate person from Himself.

is your word a separate person from you?

 

[Zippythepinhead]

Hey Cubes, I recently posted the following on another thread (the "begotten" thread), but I think it applies to this discussion just as well. In fact, to a certain extent that whole thread applies. After all, both threads are discussing the sense in which Jesus is "begotten".

Here's a diagram I created to illustrate the Trinity:

In between "primordial spirit God" and "Father" there should also be an additional descriptor: "most closely identified with." In other words, the Father is the "primary" manifestation of "God", so that when we talk about "God" we mean the Father and when we talk about the "Father" we mean God. They are essentially the same.

Thus it is possible to speak of "God" as the father of Jesus and of "the Father" as the father of Jesus even though his conception occurred by the operative power of the Holy Spirit, because the three are one. You see, I don't necessarily disagree with you that God overshadowed Mary with "His own Spirit" so that his Son could be born on earth, because the Holy Spirit is his own Spirit according to the above model. Does that make sense?

-CK

You had to have majored in psychology

 

[CaliforniaKid]

There are many gods but only one true God.

Then Jesus is not a true God?

If Jesus is a true God and God the Father is a true God, then we have two gods.

Indeed God commanded his angels to worship Christ, and in Rev. 4:11 to Rev. 5:12, comparatively, reasons are given for the worship. We worship the One True God because.... and we worship the Lamb because...
And the Lamb of God is seen as just that, the Lamb OF GOD so if the father says worship him, the Father's will is done in heaven and on earth, but it IS the father's will.

So do you justify not worshipping the Lamb by appealing to the reasons God gave for the angels to worship him and saying that we don't have the same reasons? Or do you worship Jesus after all?

And who do the elders cast their crowns down to? I believe that there are also different forms of worship and the son is not quite worshipped in the same way.

If you do worship Jesus, how do you worship him and how is that worship different from worship of the Father?

Also consider the song of the Lamb & Moses to his Father.

Elaborate please.

Please feel free to cite any aspect of John 4 for discussion. I was not trying to be evasive as you suggest, I did however focus on the gospel. I thought I was pretty fair.

I didn't mean to say you were being evasive. I just mean I don't think we can build a theology on what Jesus could have said in a single passage but chose not to say. Jesus may have had entirely different reasons for choosing not to say what he could have said. Looking at the full scope of scripture, we can see that Jesus does claim to be God.

-CK

 

[CaliforniaKid]

You had to have majored in psychology

lol. Why's that? Actually I am currently a sophomore, majoring in Biblical Studies (BS for short).

-CK

 

[CaliforniaKid]

i can not believe that u are trying to separate God's Word as separate person from Himself.

is your word a separate person from you?

Now you're the one who sounds oneness.

 

[Angel11]

21 In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with our Father and Mother in Heaven.



22 And the Father and the Mother are God and the son is God, and these three are the Trinity of Light, with immortal bodies of flesh and bone as tangible as mans but glorified and perfected.



23 And the light of the Trinity issues forth in spirit and essence, from their presence, to fill the immensity of space, to illuminate all the suns in the heavens and give sight to all things seen, even as it fills the hearts of the Children of Light with the Holy Spirit of Promise, yea the Holy Spirit of Light, which is their very essence, emanating into the universe to resonate and uplift the pure of heart and give the light of day and all things seen, to all existence.



24 And the power and will of the Father and the Mother focuses through the Son, and the Light of the Messiah illuminates and guides the faithful by the power of the Holy Spirit.



25 When the Son speaks, he speaks for the Father and the Mother, and when the Father is acknowledged so too is the Mother, for they are but one God.



26 Even as a King and a Queen are both sovereigns, so the Son is also a sovereign, for he but does the will of his Father and Mother; and they are not three sovereigns but one, for they speak with one voice concerning the Kingdom, even as the Father and the Mother and the Son speak of one accord concerning the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Der Alte]

i can not believe that u are trying to separate God's Word as separate person from Himself.

is your word a separate person from you?

Huge logical fallacy. You ain't God, neither are we so we what we can or cannot do is totally irrelevant. I notice you as all other antiTrinitarians have completely ignored my post on the "Memra" in the Aramaic Old Testament. Memra means word in Aramaic, and everywhere in the scripture where God spoke or acted was changed to "The Memra" i.e. "The Word." When John, and all the other Jews of his day, read his Aramaic O.T. God literally was the word and the word was literally God.

And OBTW my source is the Jewish Encyclopedia and they certainly don't believe in the Trinity.

And the Logos acting upon Himself became flesh. Then of course, we still have the scripture which every anti-Trinitarian on this forum has repeatedly ignored, where Jesus said the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have distinct, separate "selves."

 

[Cubes]

Hi DA,

I haven't been visiting CFs UT for sometime, so pardon me if I've missed the post that you refer to.

I must confess that I am not much for reading extrabiblical writings on the bible, so I generally confine my arguments to the scriptures. The common man ought to be able to pick up and read the word of God without expertise in other areas of study. I am sure you would agree, and I do value your knowledge and insights of that nature much as I value those who labored to translate the bible. I am sure I shall rely on your labors from time to time. Some years ago, I had to make a decision whether to trust all of the contents of the bible as being God-inspired, or just some of it, and I decided it was all or nothing. So my arguments are made in that spirit and I receive other arguments on the merit of the scriptures cited. Every now and then I use a concordance.

Lastly, speaking of what you said here, "... Jesus said the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have distinct, separate 'selves,'" do you mind giving us the scripture?

Also, Jesus is the Logos or word of God, yes. I have questions but that can wait and may even have been addressed on another thread.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

lol. Why's that? Actually I am currently a sophomore, majoring in Biblical Studies (BS for short).

-CK

Good diagram. Reminds me of my days in grad school

 

[Cubes]

21 In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with our Father and Mother in Heaven.



22 And the Father and the Mother are God and the son is God, and these three are the Trinity of Light, with immortal bodies of flesh and bone as tangible as mans but glorified and perfected.



23 And the light of the Trinity issues forth in spirit and essence, from their presence, to fill the immensity of space, to illuminate all the suns in the heavens and give sight to all things seen, even as it fills the hearts of the Children of Light with the Holy Spirit of Promise, yea the Holy Spirit of Light, which is their very essence, emanating into the universe to resonate and uplift the pure of heart and give the light of day and all things seen, to all existence.



24 And the power and will of the Father and the Mother focuses through the Son, and the Light of the Messiah illuminates and guides the faithful by the power of the Holy Spirit.



25 When the Son speaks, he speaks for the Father and the Mother, and when the Father is acknowledged so too is the Mother, for they are but one God.



26 Even as a King and a Queen are both sovereigns, so the Son is also a sovereign, for he but does the will of his Father and Mother; and they are not three sovereigns but one, for they speak with one voice concerning the Kingdom, even as the Father and the Mother and the Son speak of one accord concerning the Kingdom of Heaven.

Hi Angel11:

Thank you for writing again. I didn't mean to ignore your first post but I had my hands full dealing with the more familiar concepts.

Your post is interesting in that you made a good point when you noted that male and female created he them, and that must mean that if they were created in his image, then he must be both. I agree that he has the resource to make it happen.

There is a scripture that calls God the El Shaddai, which if I remember correctly, is said to mean the "double-breasted one." If we agree that Wisdom in Proverbs 8 refers to Christ, then that Wisdom also has a female connotation. Jesus also said he had wanted to cover the children of Israel as a hen protectively covers her chicks but they wouldn't let him....
And in conception, the male's sperm can produce either male or female...but the ovum of the woman can only produce daughters.... Just interesting ...

I am not a Trinitarian so I do not believe that there is a mother in heaven.


PERSON #1.
So far, my understanding is that The Most High God/Spirit/Father is one being. It is his will that is to be done on earth as it is in heaven. The Holy Spirit is his own spirit and does his will. So He is one being. You have a spirit and you are one being. You don't point to your spirit and say, "there is my spirit" and neither do others. Your actions may cause others to wonder at times what KIND of a spirit you have (whether from God or the devil....John 8), but generally, no one even thinks about it, and yet, you are aided by your spirit daily and your will is carried out.
Luke 1:31-35 helps us see this as does John 8, and other scriptures on the holy spirit.



PERSON #2.
THE SON OF GOD: (This is inclusive of John 1:1)
The Father's only begotton son who was in the bosom of the father. The Father's spirit is naturally in his son (the sperm analogy). Also John 8, Romans 8, and other scriptures.
The Father's will is done by the son, not vice versa. Son makes requests and the father grants it according to his will. Jesus told us to do the same. Father has also given all authority to the son, even life in himself. The Father deals directly with mankind through his spirit.
Because the son is a son, he has much of his Father's attributes, received through the holy spirit.
Because he is a good son, he desires to do his father's will and does it. There is a scripture that says something like, my father delights in me because I do that which pleases him.

He is his father's delight and glory, therefore the father exalts him and lavishly blesses him, making him his principal heir and righthand person, literally.



And we are the recipients of that blessing and also have the spirit of the Father making us children of God and co-heirs with Christ. If we believe that there is one God, who sent his one son to do the work of the cross for our sake, and that the son died and rose again (Epistles of John), we have the gospel. If we receive the son and repent, walking in the way he has shown us, we have eternal life in him.

If we go on to say God is 3 in 1 persons with co-equality, or any variations on the One True God presented to us in the scriptures, we have another gospel which is essentially antichrist in nature (Epistles of John).