TRINITARIANS: A Question about the Holy Spirit?

[gort]

He came into existence in the beginning. Rev 3:14 shows this. He is the first of creation.

I asked, "When did the Word come into existence?"

thanx

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[gort]

All the attributes of the Holy Spirit are true of God and originate from God. God gives his children some of those same attributes and Christ has its fullness.

I don't know why the blasphemy clause is exclusive to the holy spirit.

But It is similar to the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden. God created the garden and put the tree there. He chose to make that the limit and boundary as to how far Adam and eve should go. It wasn't because the tree is greater than God.

Likewise, the Holy Spirit is from God as was that tree. God said don't eat of the tree...don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit. We'll do well simply to heed that. May God guide our steps during these discussions to not stray too far to the left or to the right in these matters. Amen.

Beyond that, I have no explanations and would welcome Trinitarian views with regards to NEJtiger's question (I think it was NEJtiger on this thread), that if God is 3 in 1 and all members are co-equal, then don't you have the burden of proof to tell us why the holy spirit is singled out?

Ok, so the attribute of the HS are the true of God and originate from God.
Good.

I asked the question regarding the blasphemy of the HS as a pointer as to 'why would this particular blasphemy' be relative only to the HS, and not the Father or Jesus. Many people blasphemy the Father and the Son. I'm prolly guilty of that in the past.

As to NEJTigers question, there are several pov regarding the blasphemy of the HS. ANd why is it singled out?

That is worthy of it's own thread at this time. Tiger has his own burden of questions to answer that he has'nt.



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[WiseOne77]

I asked, "When did the Word come into existence?"

thanx

<><

I answered that already. He came into existence in the beginning. Since he was the first of creation time begins with his creation. Sorry though, I don't have the exact date and hour.

 

[CaliforniaKid]

this statement of yours contradicts the doctrine of the trinity. "manifestations" is a "oneness" term thus contradicting the whole separation of "persons" theory. either your really not trinitarian or u just don't know the doctrine that well.

I don't care who uses the term. I'm not using it the way oneness people use it, and if you understood either Trinitarianism or oneness theology, you would know that. I am trying to explain the mechanics of the Trinity in terms people will understand. By no means am I "oneness". The three persons of the Trinity are separate and exist simultaneously.

I answered that already. He came into existence in the beginning. Since he was the first of creation time begins with his creation. Sorry though, I don't have the exact date and hour.

That implies that time (the fourth of some thirteen dimensions, according to Einstein's theory of General Relativity and according to the work of other physicists since) was created before Jesus was created. Which means Jesus wasn't the first thing created. But if Jesus was created before time then we have a paradox, because in a world without time there is no beginning or end of anything. In that case Jesus would be quite literally eternal.

-CK

 

[gort]

I answered that already. He came into existence in the beginning. Since he was the first of creation time begins with his creation. Sorry though, I don't have the exact date and hour.

But in Genesis here, time does'nt start until when?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And as Jesus is the Word, and all things were created through Him, and for Him, where is the Word here in the creation?

It's in the 1st verse.

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[Cubes]

Trinitarianism doesn't shun authority. Trinitarianism outright acknowledges the de facto authority of the Father over both the other persons of the Trinity. To do otherwise would be stupid. The Father's authority is all over scripture. We're not stupid, Cubes.

That is why we conclude that it is not a cosmetic appearance of authority, but wholly, entirely and actually, he alone is the One True God.

Jesus when speaking of the Father said:
Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What we believe is that the Son is not a demigod. The Holy Spirit is not a demigod. Each of them is fully God (i.e. not a "lesser being"). But the Son willingly submits to the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Thus the Son is functionally lower in the hierarchy than the Father, and the Holy Spirit literally belongs to both the Father and the Son.

God wanted husbands to be head over wives and Paul explains that it is because woman was taken out of man for one thing. It seems arbitrary but that is how God wants it and who am I to contend with God?

So authority means authority to me. I acknowledge Christ's authority over all things except over the father.

It is very wrong to think of the Trinity as something that erases the distinct interrelationships between the three persons. The Trinity acknowledges these relationships. The Trinity merely investigates into the deep metaphysical nature (as opposed to function or position) of God and of the three persons in an attempt to explain how the three can be one God and yet distinct.

We can acknowledge the interrelationships in the context given. Father & Son. Father's spirit is in son, and in all who are his.

In contrast, Jesus said:


42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."


That tells me that God's character and attributes are passed on to those that are the father's.

As to nature:
God is spirit. He is one. Then follow all the attributes.

No, the co-equality isn't nullified. Co-equality says they are equal in nature but not in function or authority. The Trinity acknowledges that the Holy Spirit is (functionally) God's operative power.

So do you designate identity for your mind, personality, operative power?
And yet, are attributes of your personality not displayed through the things you do and say and especially in your child(ren), if it applies.

That one passage is the single reason that I said I am not a dogmatic supporter of the tenet of coequality. Still, I think that if coequality is properly understood, even this verse is not a problem for it.

Actually there are many more like that if not directly using the word "greater." .

I think the biggest problem you've got is that you misunderstand what Trinitarians believe. You're putting way too much emphasis on our understanding of the nature of the three persons and entirely neglecting our understanding of their function. I hope that even if you still disagree with it, you will walk away from this conversation with a better understanding of and greater respect for the Trinitarian position. Like I said, we're not complete morons.

Maybe so, but I don't misunderstand that the trinity claims that God is 3 in 1.
And, no, I don't consider people stupid just not acknowlegding that Jesus Christ, the son of God has come in the flesh. Epistle of John.

My friend is looking over my shoulder and says we should "quit worrying about interpreting and start doing." He wanted me to type that at the end of my post.
God Bless,
-CK

I agree.

Daniel 11:32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits.

God bless you too.

 

[gort]

CK quote:

That implies that time (the fourth of some thirteen dimensions, according to Einstein's theory of General Relativity and according to the work of other physicists since) was created before Jesus was created. Which means Jesus wasn't the first thing created. But if Jesus was created before time then we have a paradox, because in a world without time there is no beginning or end of anything. In that case Jesus would be quite literally eternal.

It's interesting that we do have the 'big bang theory.' It is evidenced by the motion of galaxies moving apart from one another, indicating a point of origin, and because things are set in motion at that point, perhaps 'time' could have started then. We don't know. Irregardless, the Word was there at the creation of the heavens and earth, therefore the Word was not in time.

fwiw
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[WiseOne77]

That implies that time (the fourth of some thirteen dimensions, according to Einstein's theory of General Relativity and according to the work of other physicists since) was created before Jesus was created. Which means Jesus wasn't the first thing created. But if Jesus was created before time then we have a paradox, because in a world without time there is no beginning or end of anything. In that case Jesus would be quite literally eternal.
-CK

No it doesn't. Time starts when something that is not infinite comes into being. Since Jesus is the first of all creation then time starts once he is created. The only being outside of time is the Father.

 

[WiseOne77]

But in Genesis here, time does'nt start until when?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And as Jesus is the Word, and all things were created through Him, and for Him, where is the Word here in the creation?

It's in the 1st verse.

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I think you are talking about time as in hours. I am talking about time in itself. Genesis one is not talking about the creation of everything in the universe because in Job we see that angels were there when God made the earth.

 

[Fit4Christ]

Hi F4C,

We are asked to give a defense for our faith. Why then is the Trinity so inexplicable? Also God gave us the Bible so we may know him and have fellowship with him through Christ, why then is it difficult to understand the basic things? On the other hand, I am sure you don't ran into a similar difficulty when reading the pure word of God. Why is that?

I don't blame you for the difficulty you are having. It is unscriptural. Were it not, you could explain it scripturally and have evidence of it in nature according to Romans 1:20.

The pure word of God is straightforward meets those two criterias at least.

Again, I think you are right about the part of your spirit, in that the Holy Spirit is God's spirit. But that is not consistent with Trinitarianism, as that doctrine demands that the Holy Spirit must be the 3rd part of the equation.

I don't know why the Trinity is so inexplicable. I understand it, however, as you have pointed out, have a hard time explaining it. Human terms and understanding is limited. I guess God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) opened my mind and showed me the meaning of it.

I didn't know you wanted a full scriptural detail on the Trinity. I thought you were looking for a basic understanding. I apologize for the misunderstanding. These scriptures all mention the members of the trinity: 2 Cor. 13:14, Ephesians 5:18-20, 1 Cor. 12:4-6, 2 Thess. 2:13-14, 1 Peter 1:1-2.

Since you like the Alpha course, did you happen to pick up a packet titled "Is the Trinity Unbiblical, Unbelievable, and Irrelevant?" That attempts to explain a lot also. If you want, you can PM me your address and I can try to get you a copy.

Looks like this thread took off a little since yesterday...

 

[Fit4Christ]

...
I don't know why the blasphemy clause is exclusive to the holy spirit.
Beyond that, I have no explanations and would welcome Trinitarian views with regards to NEJtiger's question (I think it was NEJtiger on this thread), that if God is 3 in 1 and all members are co-equal, then don't you have the burden of proof to tell us why the holy spirit is singled out?

Why do we have the "burden of proof"? What does it accomplish to "prove" this? It's not up to us to prove anything to anyone. All we can do is try to explain this belief/concept, but it is the nonbeliever who has the burden to understand. My burden is light, thanks be to Christ!

 

[gort]

I think you are talking about time as in hours. I am talking about time in itself. Genesis one is not talking about the creation of everything in the universe because in Job we see that angels were there when God made the earth.

So, as Gen is talking about the creation of everything in the universe, I ask again:

Where is the Word in the Creation?


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[CaliforniaKid]

Time starts when something that is not infinite comes into being.

I don't know where you're getting that, but it's in conflict with the findings of the physical sciences. If you don't like the theological implications of General Relativity, then take it up with Eistein, not with me. I for one know that Jesus is not bound by time.

-CK

 

[Fit4Christ]

But, since you asked, Cubes...

because the Son of God always includes the humanity of Christ. it is comparing diety to flesh.

now let me ask u, if the Son and Holy Ghost are coequal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgiveable but blashpemy of the Son is not? that clearly makes one unequal to the other. what is your explanation?

I'm assuming that you are talking about this verse:

30“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:30-32)

Take it in context. Why did Jesus say this? Look back to v. 22 and read on. A Pharasee was crediting the work of Jesus of healing a blind, mute, demon-possessed man to Beelzebub, a "prince of demons". It's the good work of God and Jesus by the means of Holy Spirit that is being attacked and attibuted to evil. The Pharasees, being supposed men of God, should have known what was and what was not the work of God. To attribute His work (through the Holy Spirit) to evil is blaspheme. The Holy Spirit is sent by God's grace. To deny the HS is to deny God's grace.

We know what happens to people who deny God. We know what happens to people who deny Jesus. And, those who deny both God and Jesus will never be filled with the Holy Spirit. But, to those who accept God and/or Jesus are filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the one who carries out the will of God and Jesus. To equate that with evil is to say that God and Jesus are evil.

I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it's my feeble attempt.

 

[WiseOne77]

I don't know where you're getting that, but it's in conflict with the findings of the physical sciences. If you don't like the theological implications of General Relativity, then take it up with Eistein, not with me. I for one know that Jesus is not bound by time.

-CK

Did Jesus age? Did Jesus learn? Did Jesus die? All of these things are characteristics of someone who is finite.

It's not in conflict. Time does not exist until someone or something finite comes into being. The Father exists outside of time. Jesus existed in time. Time would not exist when God was alone or even if there were 10 persons who are infinite. Time is a concept for finite beings not infinite ones. Like I have shown several times, Jesus was the first of creation.

 

[Cubes]

My edited post from another forum: A STUDY OF JOHN 4 TO BE CONSIDERED IN ITS ENTIRETY: JESUS AND THE SAMARITAN WOMAN.


10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."


For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..(John 3:16)
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."


Jesus does not mince words here. He clearly was not hesitant to declare that the water that he gives is a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.

Similar to:


Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.


19 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."



Vs. 19 presented Jesus with a clear opportunity to set the samaritan woman straight. The woman had called him a prophet. Jesus did not deny this.
More than that, Jesus talks about worship, and makes it clear that the Father is the one to be worshipped. He said nothing whatever to imply or suggest that he himself is the father and/or should be worshipped. This in my mind is critical. As always, I view it in light of Revelations 4 and 5, so as to understand clearly.


Thirdly, he includes himself when he says, "we know what we worship," for salvation is of the Jews. (vs. 22)


25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."
26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."


Again, as in the case with Peter, has Yahshua missed an opportunity to declare that he is God Almighty, the Most High?
No, he had a chance to reveal himself and said that He is the Messiah. Why then can't we believe him? What is that spirit that wouldn't believe him...?

Who are we to say he is other than he says he is? Shall we judge based on what he said or what we would like to convince him he SHOULD have said/meant?


28 The woman then left her waterpot, went her way into the city, and said to the men, 29 "Come, see a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?" 30 Then they went out of the city and came to Him.


Notice the gospel that the woman preaches that led to a harvest. Though it is put in a question form, she was believed and the others came to check out her story. She did not say anthing about Jesus is the Most High God, but rather, "Could this be the Christ?"


31 In the meantime His disciples urged Him, saying, "Rabbi, eat."
32 But He said to them, "I have food to eat of which you do not know."
33 Therefore the disciples said to one another, "Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?"
34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.


Is this not what is meant by having the mind of Christ?



39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, "He told me all that I ever did."
40 So when the Samaritans had come to Him, they urged Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days.
41 And many more believed because of His own word.


Again, what was the woman's testimony? What was the message she preached?
And did she say something different other than what Christ has said?


42 Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed *the Christ, the Savior of the world."



"Not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard him and know..."
This is the gospel. Is this your message too or do you respond to and preach another gospel?

 

[WiseOne77]

So, as Gen is talking about the creation of everything in the universe, I ask again:

Where is the Word in the Creation?


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Did you not read anything I wrote. Genesis is not talking about the creation of "everything". What day were the angels created on? Since in Job we see that they applauded when he created the earth then obvioulsy they were there already before that creation.

 

[Cubes]

But, since you asked, Cubes...

I'm assuming that you are talking about this verse:

30“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:30-32)

Take it in context. Why did Jesus say this? Look back to v. 22 and read on. A Pharasee was crediting the work of Jesus of healing a blind, mute, demon-possessed man to Beelzebub, a "prince of demons". It's the good work of God and Jesus by the means of Holy Spirit that is being attacked and attibuted to evil. The Pharasees, being supposed men of God, should have known what was and what was not the work of God. To attribute His work (through the Holy Spirit) to evil is blaspheme. The Holy Spirit is sent by God's grace. To deny the HS is to deny God's grace.


I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it's my feeble attempt.

Thanks for the scripture, F4C, and a very good attempt. I don't disagree.
With regards to "proof"...it shouldn't be our job to convince one another, but to give scriptural evidence to support or claims. We can only know what has been revealed through the scriptures concerning the word of God. Don't you agree?.

No I have not seen the booklet you speak of but should be able to obtain one as there are some Alpha courses going on in my area. Thanks for the offer though. Besides, I prefer talking with you guys. At least I can ask questions if need be.

I will read the scriptures you cited and post accordingly shortly.

 

[Cubes]

So, as Gen is talking about the creation of everything in the universe, I ask again:

Where is the Word in the Creation?


<><

WiseOne77 answered you from Revelation, daneel.

Also the first record of the God Speaking is in Genesis 1:3.
Gen 1:3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Before that:

Gen 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Christ precedes Genesis 1 as WiseOne77 pointed out.

 

[Fit4Christ]

WiseOne77 answered you from Revelation, daneel.

Also the first record of the God Speaking is in Genesis 1:3.
Gen 1:3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Before that:

Gen 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Christ precedes Genesis 1 as WiseOne77 pointed out.

Now, read in between those 2 verses (Gen 1:2) to see the Trinity is complete in the beginning:

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Combine that with John 1:1-2:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

How are those verses not describing a trinitarian nature of God?