Transgender son

[Amber the Duskbringer]

There will always be questions it is very hard for research to happen when we happen to be so taboo. It really is limited. I would love to be able to give birth and I am lucky as I will be one of the unique ts who can breast feed. Science just isnt there/very limited and it will take time. Probably not in my life time but I really hope so. I don't stress too hard cause I plan on adopting. Already have their names chosen out A girl can dream though

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Sperm or egg. That is what dictates male or female. We dictate animals in this way, as it is a dictation by nature and by extension God. The hardwired brain idea is just a fabrication, because I stated and was stated further by others, people do not really realize any difference except through experience.
Put these two things together and look what the contrary presents_
That's all there is to it really.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

You keep making this untrue assertion, as if it were proven fact or something. Most gay men are not feminine at all. Gender dysphoric women know they are female the same way all women do -- they are wired that way. It's innate.

You're arguing that male and female brains have different structures - which is true - but you're saying these structures dictate whether they think they're male or female.

Studies on intersexed people show a different story. Certain intersexed girls have maculinised brains (that is, their brain structure is more similar to a man's than it is to a woman's) and they do indeed show typically male behaviour; they tend to be more competitive than other girls. But their identity remains intact. They don't consider themselves transgender - females born with male brains - they consider themselves girls who simply happen to be more aggressive than other girls.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Sum1 did you watch my video I linked? Should look into that and think deep. We have presented sources and first hand experience. You have presented your NOPE DUDDNT WORK DAT WAY opinion relentlessly. Really I have to give you credit, to be able to look at proof and deny it.

 

[LoraElise]

But you see, it isn't naturally hardwired. Notice that men and woman do not even realize the difference until experiencing life and seeing how the two roles work. It's a choice encouraged by the environment, not 'hardwired'. Male and female tendencies that are hardwired are anything but dressing, acting, and prescribing as such.

I don't buy that at all. Maybe one should be careful with the word 'offensive' because it's offensive for such an idea to be thrown in one's face that they know is far-fetched.

Your refusing to believe it doesn't change the facts. Clearly, this isn't a matter of presenting enough evidence, because you won't consider it, no matter what. The David Reimer case proved once and for all that gender identity is indeed hardwired, and autopsy and MRI studies done in the last decade have proven that the area of the brain in which gender identity resides is female in male-to-female gender dysphorics. Yet, you 'know' it is 'far-fetched.' Amazing.

And yes, it is extremely offensive to tell a woman she has it 'easier' because she is a woman, or to suggest that people who suffer with gender dysphoria (an agony that drives a third of them to suicide) are choosing to be as they are in an attempt to make life 'easier.'

Maybe one should be careful in so blithely insulting more than half the population.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Don't be stroppy just because people disagree with you.

Really that goes for anyone who has looked at the sources and first hand accounts and still says no its not true. I mean honestly how can a person really tell me how I think and not even go through it or have anything more than what they see on jerry springer or what their pastor says?

Stroppy? Eh don't care to look it up but if its anything like mardy it means pouty.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

You're arguing that male and female brains have different structures - which is true - but you're saying these structures dictate whether they think they're male or female.

Studies on intersexed people show a different story. Certain intersexed girls have maculinised brains (that is, their brain structure is more similar to a man's than it is to a woman's) and they do indeed show typically male behaviour; they tend to be more competitive than other girls. But their identity remains intact. They don't consider themselves transgender - females born with male brains - they consider themselves girls who simply happen to be more aggressive than other girls.

Btw there are many different trees under the TG tree thingie. Androgyne would describe that pretty well. Gender is extremely fluid. Ever changing and not the same for all.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Btw there are many different trees under the TG tree thingie. Androgyne would describe that pretty well. Gender is extremely fluid. Ever changing and not the same for all.

They're not very fluid at all. In humans, if a person has XY chromosomes they are male, if they have XX chromosomes they are female, which is how they determine the gender / sex of someone with ambiguous genetalia or an intersex disorder. True hermaphrodites (one teste, one ovary) are extremely rare.

 

[LoraElise]

You're arguing that male and female brains have different structures - which is true - but you're saying these structures dictate whether they think they're male or female.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that a specific structure in the hypothalamus determines gender identity, and that in male-to-female gender dysphorics this structure is female.

And just because some intersexed girls have masculinized areas of their brains yet think of themselves as girls doesn't mean the same applies to gender dysphorics. There are also intersexed girls who have a male gender identity, and vice versa. There is a lot that can happen at many stages during a baby's development.

As I said earlier, please read the thread The Science of Transsexuality : FAQ.

 

[LoraElise]

They're not very fluid at all. In humans, if a person has XY chromosomes they are male, if they have XX chromosomes they are female...

This is not true. There are XX males and XY females, among many other karyotypes.

Again, please read the thread The Science of Transsexuality : FAQ.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

They're not very fluid at all. In humans, if a person has XY chromosomes they are male, if they have XX chromosomes they are female, which is how they determine the gender / sex of someone with ambiguous genetalia or an intersex disorder. True hermaphrodites (one teste, one ovary) are extremely rare.

Honestly I am tired of debating this for now. I refer you to loraelise's reference to that thread.

Really I do have one question though.

Are you willing to look at all the trans people and their letter's of recommendation from therapists and doctors which verify their condition and say "Your condition does not exist?"

Keep in mind these therapist have degrees in this field and have studied this longer than me and you? My therapist alone has a dang wall of these and years and years and years under her belt helping the TS/TG community. To say she with all her degrees is wrong with sources that are at best the exodus/christian based therapists is just plain asinine.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that a specific structure in the hypothalamus determines gender identity, and that in male-to-female gender dysphorics this structure is female.

Could you link to the comment where you only looked at this specific structure? I might have missed it. Also, Amber sent a link showing that it was the brain's body map which determined identity.

And just because some intersexed girls have masculinized areas of their brains yet think of themselves as girls doesn't mean the same applies to gender dysphorics. There are also intersexed girls who have a male gender identity, and vice versa. There is a lot that can happen at many stages during a baby's development.

Indeed there are but if it's possible to have a intersexed girls who think they're male and intersexed girls who think they're female, then the cause can't be whether they have 'male brains'. If it was, then all masculinised girls would think they are men.

This is not true. There are XX males and XY females

I know, but do you know what causes those condition?

--------------------------

Are you willing to look at all the trans people and their letter's of recommendation from therapists and doctors which verify their condition and say "Your condition does not exist?"

I am willing to look at all the transgenders and say "You are not a member of the opposite sex." Their conditions may have other causes - a flaw in their brain structure or a flaw in the way they think - but it's not because they are the wrong gender.

Can you imagine how we would react if somebody claimed they were the wrong species? Or race?

 

[LoraElise]

I know, but do you know what causes those condition?

No, you don't know. You stated very flatly that XX always means female and XY always means male.

You apparently are just arguing for argument's sake, and I, like Amber, am tired of debating this. I've asked you repeatedly to read the Science of Transsexuality thread, yet you don't seem interested.

You'll find any answers you're looking for there.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Your refusing to believe it doesn't change the facts. Clearly, this isn't a matter of presenting enough evidence, because you won't consider it, no matter what. The David Reimer case proved once and for all that gender identity is indeed hardwired, and autopsy and MRI studies done in the last decade have proven that the area of the brain in which gender identity resides is female in male-to-female gender dysphorics. Yet, you 'know' it is 'far-fetched.' Amazing.

And yes, it is extremely offensive to tell a woman she has it 'easier' because she is a woman, or to suggest that people who suffer with gender dysphoria (an agony that drives a third of them to suicide) are choosing to be as they are in an attempt to make life 'easier.'

Maybe one should be careful in so blithely insulting more than half the population.

Maybe certain other people should heed that idea. The area of the brain where 'gender identity' resides is not really 'gender identity'. It's just the flavor of choice actions and thought processes one runs with. It's a classic 'double play' in science, in which one affirms something, and then looks closer and affirms it again, as if it makes something more more affirmed simply because one squinted their eyes.
A good example would be in an evolutionist's common descent idea, where they affirm a DNA hierarchy by the likeness of organisms. So they look deeper into the DNA of animals, notice likeness, and feel they have affirmed DNA hierarchy when really all they did was do a 'double play' and proved nothing except organisms are alike.

That is the more ironic side of science. So no, I do not believe the ridiculous idea that anyone is hardwired differently from the eggs/seed they produce that dictate them as male or female.
It is a choice encouraged by their environment, and since being female is so obviously more giving in general then a male, I can see why most all male-to-female people choose female.
You can call how I see it whatever you want, but it's very clear to me. It is also something people will ever admit so it's not as if I expect people of the type to speak it. If they are suicidal, it is because of their condition, not because their mind and body do not match.
I find it offensive that one would try to shatter biblical orthodoxy with something that is untrue, so it's really tit for tat.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

No, you don't know. You stated very flatly that XX always means female and XY always means male.

You apparently are just arguing for argument's sake, and I, like Amber, am tired of debating this. I've asked you repeatedly to read the Science of Transsexuality thread, yet you don't seem interested.

You'll find any answers you're looking for there.

Read it. And yes I know what causes those particular conditions.

In humans the entire Y chromosome is not needed to create a male. All that is needed is a section kown as the Sex-Determining Region on Y (or SRY for short). As the name suggests, its presence determines whether the person is male or female.

In extremely rare cases the SRY will deactivate or be deleted, and the embryo will revert to female form. This results in an XY woman. On other occasions the SRY will transport itself onto an X chromosome, resulting in an XX men. Often XY woman and XX man have no idea they have this problem, as they appear perfectly normal. The only giveaway is that they are sterile.

So to elaborate, having an active SRY - which in the overwhelming majority of cases is on the Y chromosome - makes you male.

 

[Zebra1552]

Maybe certain other people should heed that idea. The area of the brain where 'gender identity' resides is not really 'gender identity'. It's just the flavor of choice actions and thought processes one runs with. It's a classic 'double play' in science, in which one affirms something, and then looks closer and affirms it again, as if it makes something more more affirmed simply because one squinted their eyes.
A good example would be in an evolutionist's common descent idea, where they affirm a DNA hierarchy by the likeness of organisms. So they look deeper into the DNA of animals, notice likeness, and feel they have affirmed DNA hierarchy when really all they did was do a 'double play' and proved nothing except organisms are alike.

That is the more ironic side of science. So no, I do not believe the ridiculous idea that anyone is hardwired differently from the eggs/seed they produce that dictate them as male or female.
It is a choice encouraged by their environment, and since being female is so obviously more giving in general then a male, I can see why most all male-to-female people choose female.
You can call how I see it whatever you want, but it's very clear to me. It is also something people will ever admit so it's not as if I expect people of the type to speak it.
I find it offensive that one would try to shatter biblical orthodoxy with something that is untrue, so it's really tit for tat.

Emphasis mine. This is your most recent post. Earlier, you stated:

Sperm or egg. That is what dictates male or female. We dictate animals in this way, as it is a dictation by nature and by extension God.

You contradicted yourself. First you say gender isn't hardwired, but before you say it is. Which is it?

Also, the information you provided isn't really related to transgendered people because they are talking about their gender not matching their sex, not that their sex isn't really what their sex is. Once again, sex is not gender. I addressed this:


Sex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A transgender is determined by what gender attributes they choose to take on and what gender they identify as, not their sex organs.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Jaws13, I never contradicted myself. Re-read your post. Gender is a choice. Precisely. Ends the whole argument. Thanks for destroying the idea you were trying to defend.

 

[Zebra1552]

Jaws13, I never contradicted myself. Re-read your post. Gender is a choice. Precisely. Ends the whole argument. Thanks for destroying the idea you were trying to defend.

Denying the claim does not refute it. Try again.

 

[CocoaBean]

We seem to have wandered away from the main topic of conversation! How did "transgender son" turn into a discussion of the "end times"?

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

I wanna hear his answer. He dodges all the rest and simply says no. In the end this thread is still about TG. \

Just noticed my pun In the end, oh bah dum pish :3