Transgender son

[jennimatts]

Sum1sGruj,

You are right to recognize that this is an issue between an individual and God. Salvation comes through faith in Jesus. Believing Jesus is the Messiah, the thief on the cross simply said "remember me", and was saved. This is the simple truth of the Gospel. Even if it were a sin for me to have a sex change, I trust in Jesus as my savior, and all my sins have been washed away. Because of this, I have complete confidence that I am righteous before God.

That we have a different understanding of "a few passages from the Bible" is not blasphemy, nor an insult to your intelligence, nor does it mean we aren't real Christians. Your conclusion that this is some ridiculous idea is not proof of it actually being a ridiculous idea. (By the way, I'm convinced the majority view remains that transsexuals are all hellbound.)

It is obvious that we will not agree on Biblical interpretation regarding this subject. May I suggest that my interpretation is unimportant to your salvation, just as I believe your interpretation is unimportant to my salvation. If I were wrong, you have made an effort ot tell me so, and would not be accountable for my soul. Therefore, it is unnecessary for you to try to change my mind.

Although we disagree, I can understand why you might believe that being transsexual is sin. However, in spite of this disagreement, I choose to believe that you also trust in Jesus, and therefore I count you as my brother in Christ. As a result, it really is pointless for us to argue and get our blood pressure up.

Grace and peace to you.

Jenni

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Sum1sGruj,

You are right to recognize that this is an issue between an individual and God. Salvation comes through faith in Jesus. Believing Jesus is the Messiah, the thief on the cross simply said "remember me", and was saved. This is the simple truth of the Gospel. Even if it were a sin for me to have a sex change, I trust in Jesus as my savior, and all my sins have been washed away. Because of this, I have complete confidence that I am righteous before God.

That we have a different understanding of "a few passages from the Bible" is not blasphemy, nor an insult to your intelligence, nor does it mean we aren't real Christians. Your conclusion that this is some ridiculous idea is not proof of it actually being a ridiculous idea. (By the way, I'm convinced the majority view remains that transsexuals are all hellbound.)

It is obvious that we will not agree on Biblical interpretation regarding this subject. May I suggest that my interpretation is unimportant to your salvation, just as I believe your interpretation is unimportant to my salvation. If I were wrong, you have made an effort ot tell me so, and would not be accountable for my soul. Therefore, it is unnecessary for you to try to change my mind.

Although we disagree, I can understand why you might believe that being transsexual is sin. However, in spite of this disagreement, I choose to believe that you also trust in Jesus, and therefore I count you as my brother in Christ. As a result, it really is pointless for us to argue and get our blood pressure up.

Grace and peace to you.

Jenni

I never tried to convey an idea that you or others are not Christian. I was just simply trying to imply that some things, acts, etc. are not condoned by Christianity and that the path is a little more narrow then some try to put it.

See, Jesus said that he is not one to be used. And the way I see it, is that if someone chooses something that is against the Bible, especially something that is life-long, then one needs to at least be fully aware of it and reconcile.
By that, I'm meaning just make sure that you are still grace-bound because in all honesty, the way Christians follow today is already bending the religion. Any average Christian who can humble themselves can admit that. Our lifestyles simply do not adhere to it the way it was originally intended, so we are already walking a tightrope, so to speak, without additional things that go against what the Bible states.

That's all, really. The only reason I got upset is because I know what the Bible implies, and when someone says I am flat out wrong, it just gives the impression that any fear of God is taking the backseat to what people want to freely do with themselves.
Simply put, Jesus completed the law, he did not replace it., and that clearly doe snot give us the freedom to do as we please so long as we believe in him. It brings to light what I mentioned above on Jesus stating he is not one to be used.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

So how are you going to correct us? Telling me I am male, does that help me? Uh no. What would you prescribe for correction beyond a waggle of the finger and a good scolding?

Fixing people who do not want to be fixed is always a thorny issue ...

But to me the difference between transgenderism and being intersexed is similar to the difference between having body identity integrity disorder (BIID) and being the victim of thalidomide. One is clearly a mental problem which, is not corrected, may lead to the person mutilating themselves while the other is the result of a mistake made while still in the womb.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Fixing people who do not want to be fixed is always a thorny issue ...

But to me the difference between transgenderism and being intersexed is similar to the difference between having body identity integrity disorder (BIID) and being the victim of thalidomide. One is clearly a mental problem which, is not corrected, may lead to the person mutilating themselves while the other is the result of a mistake made while still in the womb.

Well I don't have any links to it but I am sure someone more knowledgable can link it for me if they know them. I had a few mtf friends who decided they wanted to be cured the way the christian families would wanted. More testorone in there systems. Didn't work for them and they are currently on suicide watches. They severed their ties to the tg community and are completely miserable last time I talked to them.

I don't think they methods work. As to mutilation... It's no more mutilation than any other reconstructive surgery...

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Well I don't have any links to it but I am sure someone more knowledgable can link it for me if they know them. I had a few mtf friends who decided they wanted to be cured the way the christian families would wanted. More testorone in there systems. Didn't work for them and they are currently on suicide watches. They severed their ties to the tg community and are completely miserable last time I talked to them.

Equally I know of a couple of studies where children and adolescents were put on drugs to prepare them for the first stage of a sex-change operation. After this initial stage as many as 20% of them decided not to go through with the surgery.

As to mutilation... It's no more mutilation than any other reconstructive surgery...

It's a mutilation in the same way people who have BIID self-amputate. The 'foreign' limb is perfectly healthy yet they cut it off because they think it doesn't belong to them - possibly due to a flaw in their brain's body map.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Equally I know of a couple of studies where children and adolescents were put on drugs to prepare them for the first stage of a sex-change operation. After this initial stage as many as 20% of them decided not to go through with the surgery.

Ok well that sounds pretty specific, is there a source? Mine was merely personal experience but yea.

It's a mutilation in the same way people who have BIID self-amputate. The 'foreign' limb is perfectly healthy yet they cut it off because they think it doesn't belong to them - possibly due to a flaw in their brain's body map.

So nose jobs because they are too big etc? What about those? Are you saying if you had the money and a huge honker or whatever you wouldn't get a NJ? Sigh I don't think you really have any idea. My life before was hell. Now I am happy. Being who I am now as opposed to being that guy who was miserable and always had the razor to that wrist ready to end it. I just don't think you can understand. At best I think you are more and more like Bachmanns husband with his cure the gay clinic....

Really though you won't, can't or just refuse to understand. I live as female, I don't stop when I get home and put guy clothes on. I am not male and you are right I wouldn't go back to being him ever again. I probably can't either if I ever had to for health reasons.

I am female and I am here to stay. Cya.

 

[Paul 5]

I do not see why we should take the position that a man wanting to become a woman is somehow a reasonable thought and that the answer is to attempt by cutting and drugs to accommodate the individual. I knew a couple of twins that wanted to be cats,should we have attempted by cutting and drugs to make them look and feel as if they were cats? The world is full of human beings who have problems of the mind,is the answer to help them fulfill their problem? Certainly it seems like a much better idea if medical science actually tried to get to the bottom of why a male would want to be a female or why a female would want to be a male. The "I am a woman in a man's body"is a statement of thought not of scientific reality.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Ok well that sounds pretty specific, is there a source?

It was in an issue of New Scientist (I cannot remeber the exact issue off the top of my head, sorry) looking at the effects of early-onset puberty - although whether New Scientist is actually a reliable source is up to you.

[EDIT] According to this article on the Daily Telegraph 60 children a year consider having sex change operations but only 20% go through with it when they become adults. That's a mere 12 people a year.

So nose jobs because they are too big etc? What about those? Are you saying if you had the money and a huge honker or whatever you wouldn't get a NJ? Sigh I don't think you really have any idea.

Having surgery because we think we look 'wrong' is always controversial. Many people around the world bleach their skin so they look whiter, as having dark skin suggests they are poor and unattractive. Are they right to change their looks as they see fit? Or does this type of thinking encourage racism?

Doctors too debate when a patient should no longer have surgery. It could be a symptom of body dysmorphia or addiction to cosmetic surgery.

Really though you won't, can't or just refuse to understand. I live as female, I don't stop when I get home and put guy clothes on. I am not male and you are right I wouldn't go back to being him ever again. I probably can't either if I ever had to for health reasons.

Don't worry. I'm not as concerned for your welfare as you seem to think

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Ugh there is a difference... Cats are outside our species... We have to pay out of pocket for the SRS meds etc. There are very few companies that actually have insurance that accommodates our needs. Science is getting down to that. Guess what? They are showing more and more this condition is very real and that we need to transition to be happy. It seems christianity and science have been at odds in this regard for a long time and I doubt it will come up as oh nah they are just faking, they don't need this, give the boy some extra t and he will be fine. I severely suggest you read the facts on it before making such outrageous claims against the evidence of it all.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

It was in an issue of New Scientist (I cannot remeber the exact issue off the top of my head, sorry) looking at the effects of early-onset puberty - although whether New Scientist is actually a reliable source is up to you.

[EDIT] According to this article on the Daily Telegraph 60 children a year consider having sex change operations but only 20% go through with it when they become adults. That's a mere 12 people a year.

Biased news reporting at it's best. Once again, being tg does not always mean going the road of TS. TG encompasses crossdressers androgynes everyone with the gender variance. The UK has this wonderful NHS that covers all the necessary procedures and medication. So yeah with easier access of course you will have more people who don't wish to go through with it. Another big thing. We have to deal with people like you everyday when we go out being ourselves. People who secondguess us every step of the way, people who somehow thing when we go to the bathroom we are going to rape you. That one is laughable. How many women go to rape women in the bathroom? Not as many as people against TS would have you believe. We live a hard life. Many detransition for various reasons and that is the biggest one. It is hard.

Having surgery because we think we look 'wrong' is always controversial. Many people around the world bleach their skin so they look whiter, as having dark skin suggests they are poor and unattractive. Are they right to change their looks as they see fit? Or does this type of thinking encourage racism?

Doctors too debate when a patient should no longer have surgery. It could be a symptom of body dysmorphia or addiction to cosmetic surgery.

Which is why american TS normally have to pay outta pocket. We have to have years of therapy, 2 recommendations, far more reliable than anything you have thrown out in this thread. Racism? Really? LOL source? Please tell me you have something to back up that people who tan or wish to have darker/lighter skin are racist. Maybe they want to look the way they wanna look? Perhaps they don't want to be tan? Maybe they wanna look darker? How does racism have to do with anything there? By that logic if I dyed my hair I am discriminating on people with other color hair. Fail.

Don't worry. I'm not as concerned for your welfare as you seem to think

With your obvious dripping sarcasm and sloppy facts I wouldn't have guessed anything else. Not to mention your jab at me by calling me dude.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Biased news reporting at it's best.

Claiming an article is bias just because you disagree with it isn't an answer.

Racism? Really? LOL source? Please tell me you have something to back up that people who tan or wish to have darker/lighter skin are racist. Maybe they want to look the way they wanna look? Perhaps they don't want to be tan? Maybe they wanna look darker? How does racism have to do with anything there?

I'm not saying people who whiten their skin are racists - I'm asking whether we should respect their decision or whether it's subtly racist to think being fair-skinned is being better than being dark-skinned.

Skin whitening is particularly popular in India. This is significant because fair-skinned people sit at the top of the caste system while dark-skinned people lie at the bottom.

Not to mention your jab at me by calling me dude.

That wasn't a jab, I call everyone dude. You're the first person to complain.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Claiming an article is bias just because you disagree with it isn't an answer.

Except it doesn't refer to any source or link to cite it. Also this line here. "So-called “gender discomfort” tends to say they are already to shoot down the idea their people that are happier as something other than their born gender.

I'm not saying people who whiten their skin are racists - I'm asking whether we should respect their decision or whether it's subtly racist to think being fair-skinned is being better than being dark-skinned.

Why should people care if you respect their decision? They paid for it, it's their body. Who are you? Honestly what importance in their life are YOU?

Skin whitening is particularly popular in India. This is significant because fair-skinned people sit at the top of the caste system while dark-skinned people lie at the bottom.

Different cultures are different. Yup sorry to break it to you. That's not the person being racist it seems, to me it seems they are looking for a way to succeed in a environment where they are discriminated upon themselves. That's actually the opposite of what you were saying thus nullifying any argument there in that. Sum1 this isn't saying women have it easier. Don't bother trying to justify that with what I said. Women statistically get paid less, ts women often are harassed to the point where they quit. Don't need to link a source because it happened to me. God loving, non "bigoted" christians told me I was destined for hell. They seemed to think that somehow engaging me in this conversation on a near daily basis was necessary to save me.

That wasn't a jab, I call everyone dude. You're the first person to complain.

To me it is. I don't like it anymore than being called, hoss, bud bro etc.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Except it doesn't refer to any source or link to cite it. Also this line here. "So-called “gender discomfort” tends to say they are already to shoot down the idea their people that are happier as something other than their born gender.

Then find me a source which shows how many children who want to change gender actually become transsexuals as adults. BTW getting it from a pro-transgender website would be "bias".

Why should people care if you respect their decision? They paid for it, it's their body. Who are you? Honestly what importance in their life are YOU?

...
Different cultures are different. Yup sorry to break it to you. That's not the person being racist it seems, to me it seems they are looking for a way to succeed in a environment where they are discriminated upon themselves.

You're missing the point. I'm asking whether we should blithely change our bodies to fit in with what society, or whether society itself should change. Shouldn't we address the underlying assumption that being dark-skinned is bad, rather than encourage people to whiten their skin? When people have ribs removed so they can look thinner, shouldn't we question whether being so thin is healthy?

Before you answer - consider the fact that, by being transgendered, you encourage the idea that society should change it's ideas on gender. If simply you wanted to fit in you should have remained a man.

 

[LoraElise]

But to me the difference between transgenderism and being intersexed is similar to the difference between having body identity integrity disorder (BIID) and being the victim of thalidomide. One is clearly a mental problem which, is not corrected, may lead to the person mutilating themselves while the other is the result of a mistake made while still in the womb.

So, you accept that birth defects occur that give an intersexed person both male and female genitalia, regardless of genetics, but you refuse to believe that the brain, which is far more fragile than the genitals, can be similarly mis-gendered. Gender dysphoria is just another form of intersex, involving the brain instead of the groin.

Notedstrangeperson, I have no doubt you love the Lord. So do I. But you simply don't want to believe that gender dysphoria is innate, and for no good reason. Because it involves outward gender expression, it must be deliberate sin, right?

I see.

I hear it again and again. "God wouldn't make someone that way." "God hates dancing and music." "God wants us to rely on Him instead of on doctors and hospitals." "God wants men to have more than one wife." "God hates gay people."

In other words, "God looks just like me. I keep Him in this little box, and I speak for him all the time."

For whatever reason, much of Christianity has decided that gender dysphoria is a choice, despite all medical and scientific evidence to the contrary. FACT: the brains of male-to-female gender dysphorics have a female BSTc region, the brain's center of gender identity. FACT: those born with gender dysphoria suffer terribly, so much so that 1/3 commit suicide just to end the agony of their internal stresses and of family and societal rejection. They get thrown out of their churches the moment their dysphoria becomes known to their pastors and congregations, sometimes despite years of dedicated, loving service.

The kind of misguided, uninformed yet positively certain opinion I've read repeatedly on this board, labeling these people as no more than willful sinners or insane, lacks any semblance of compassion and contributes greatly to the misery they suffer.

And FACT: far too many Christians, whose self-image is wrapped up in a holier-than-thou worldview, will always choose others to single out and treat as a less-than-human 'them.' These believers think somehow they aren't devoted enough to God unless they have someone to look down upon and judge. They forget that they are no better than anyone else on the planet -- they are simply forgiven.

Sadly, it would seem that most Christians reserve their love and compassion for those who are most like themselves.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Notedstrangeperson, I have no doubt you love the Lord. So do I. But you simply don't want to believe that gender dysphoria is innate, and for no good reason. Because it involves outward gender expression, it must be deliberate sin, right?

Yeah yeah I'm a bad Christian blah blah blah. If I have a problem it's because I'm obviously a bigot, not because I genuinely disagree with their arguments. Nobody could possibly have any valid criticism against transgenderism.

Sorry about that but I'm slightly sick of hearing how 'un-christian' it is to disagree with someone.

I hear it again and again. "God wouldn't make someone that way." "God hates dancing and music." "God wants us to rely on Him instead of on doctors and hospitals." "God wants men to have more than one wife." "God hates gay people."

In other words, "God looks just like me. I keep Him in this little box, and I speak for him all the time."

Actually if you look back on my arguments I haven't yet mentioned either God or the Bible. My arguments have been about the biological nature of sex and society's views on gender. Again you're assuming I'm simply a bad, narrow-minded Christian because my thoughts are different from yours.

So, you accept that birth defects occur that give an intersexed person both male and female genitalia, regardless of genetics, but you refuse to believe that the brain, which is far more fragile than the genitals, can be similarly mis-gendered. Gender dysphoria is just another form of intersex, involving the brain instead of the groin.

We have yet to prove the human brain is subject to the same forms of gender identity as the body is. Studies on intersexed people, gay people and transgendered people have all been very mixed.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Then find me a source which shows how many children who want to change gender actually become transsexuals as adults. BTW getting it from a pro-transgender website would be "bias".

You were given the option to go to the thread Jenni referred to numerous times. all you want but I think you are badly wasting the saliva that could be used to rehydrate the cranial mass in your head. Honestly the line of questioning seems leading. All you could find was that article so you warp your question to fit that news piece. Like I said, not all tg children want to continue that path, they may just like the idea of wearing the clothes for a bit. Not all who are tg transition. I don't know how many times I will have to say that. Varying levels of it, the more serious cases are the ones who you are talking to and about. Just because we are diagnosed with GID doesn't mean we are going to fully transition. But again, talking to a wall of bricks here so what does it matter?

Gender Identity - symptoms, Definition, Description, Common problems

Gender identity disorder: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

www.lookitupforyourselfandorusethet...dnotjustusedopinionatedconservativesites.derp

You're missing the point. I'm asking whether we should blithely change our bodies to fit in with what society, or whether society itself should change. Shouldn't we address the underlying assumption that being dark-skinned is bad, rather than encourage people to whiten their skin? When people have ribs removed so they can look thinner, shouldn't we question whether being so thin is healthy?

Point? Nothing sharp about the opinions you give. I am not changing my body to fit society. I am changing it to fit me. How hard is that for you to grasp? All I ask is not to be hassled while out in public. Seems to me you are arguing for that right and manipulating words miserably just to justify your obvious hatred.

Before you answer - consider the fact that, by being transgendered, you encourage the idea that society should change it's ideas on gender. If simply you wanted to fit in you should have remained a man.

So I should just accept the hate I have received by so called Christians? No miss, I am encouraging people to accept us and not treat us like an infection. We don't like being called names, not hired, etc just because we are different. Fortunately for us though, our side is winning the war against bigotry. Fit in, sweetheart, I fit in fine for the most part. In fact I have been told I have a nice bum and am very cute by guys who have no clue. I am happier now than I have ever been.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

More importantly. I end this conversation with you and the others with this. Seems accurate enough just replace with what we spoke of.

Peace.

 

[LoraElise]

Actually if you look back on my arguments I haven't yet mentioned either God or the Bible. My arguments have been about the biological nature of sex and society's views on gender. Again you're assuming I'm simply a bad, narrow-minded Christian because my thoughts are different from yours.

You said that Genesis 2 shows that God 'set gender in stone,' and that he 'created them male and female.'

I never said you are a bad Christian. I'm saying your Christian bias that anything sexual must be sin-related rather than organically-based is obvious. Please don't pretend it isn't.

We have yet to prove the human brain is subject to the same forms of gender identity as the body is. Studies on intersexed people, gay people and transgendered people have all been very mixed.

And yet you refuse to believe the possibility even exists. See above.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

You were given the option to go to the thread Jenni referred to numerous times.

And I went.

Like I said, not all tg children want to continue that path, they may just like the idea of wearing the clothes for a bit. Not all who are tg transition. I don't know how many times I will have to say that.

I brought it up because it questions what the cause of transgenderism is. If there are children born into the 'wrong' body then why do many of them decide not to change? If we can indeed be born with a male brain inside a female body we can no more change our 'true' gender than we can our species.

Point? Nothing sharp about the opinions you give. I am not changing my body to fit society. I am changing it to fit me. How hard is that for you to grasp? All I ask is not to be hassled while out in public. Seems to me you are arguing for that right and manipulating words miserably just to justify your obvious hatred.

Perhaps if you got off your high horse you could hear me better. I'll ask the question more clearly: at what point is wanting surgery a sign of underlying bigotry or even mental illness?

You're argument seems to be that a person can always have surgery simply to make themselves fel better. If they want to be whiter or thinner that's fine. I'm not so sure - if a person repeatedly has facial surgery to the point where they no longer look human (like the late pop star Michael Jackson), this might be a sign they are becomeing addicted to surgery. At this point, shouldn't we encourage them to stop instead of saying "It's their choice"?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

You said that Genesis 2 shows that God 'set gender in stone,' and that he 'created them male and female.'

You might be confusing me with someone else. I don't remember writing that.

I'm saying your Christian bias that anything sexual must be sin-related rather than organically-based is obvious. Please don't pretend it isn't.

I'm not pretending, I never wrote that anying sexual is related to sin.

And yet you refuse to believe the possibility even exists.

The possiblity is small because so many studies have so many results. Females with masculinzed brains are not transgendered because they don't consider themselves male, even though they tend tobe more aggressive than other girls. Men with feminized brain are more likely to be homosexual, but not transgendered. Girls with female bodies and female brains consider themselves female, even though they have a Y chromosome.