Transgender son

[Amber the Duskbringer]

"It would cause no anguish at all. And what does it mean to be "cast in the role of a man"? Doing all the DIY? Wearing trousers instead of skirts? Not wearing makeup? I do all that already.

"

Perhaps I jumped the gun. Not in a good mood as I just took my last estrogen pill and last cigerette so you will have to bear with my aggression.

Give me a minute to regain my thoughts here.

 

[Zebra1552]

I already have. How about stop beating around the bush and getting real, because all the babbling is vain.

I have gotten real. Try addressing that post I quoted earlier. The one responding to your bomb.

If you think that I am an affront to homosexuality, imagine how people like me feel when their religion is warped into whatever others wish it could be, and then trying to tell them that they are absurd.

Red herring. Off topic.

I wouldn't know, but I have a pretty good feeling the subject is against the rules to promote because it is not a Christian concept and is in fact an affront to more orthodox Christians.

Actually, it isn't against the rules to promote. I was on staff. It's quite okay. Oh, and what on earth is a 'Christian' concept?

So whatever contempt you wish to share is quite hollow and hypocritical. In fact, I'm unsubscribing to this thread because I have already been sanctioned for not being as patient as others would like me to be

I'm not sharing contempt. I'm expressing an interest in discussing the topic rather than discussing the people discussing the topic. I'm reiterating what was in the mod hat you mentioned earlier.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

But you haven't answered by question. What does it mean to have a female mind, or a female brain? If we have male and female brains, this would mean gender roles are fixed, evolved, genetic - not something society has made up.

Or to put it another way: if you don't have the body of a woman, don't act like woman, and don't think they way women are "supposed" to think - what makes you think you're a woman?

I honestly don't know how to answer that because I have never had a male mind, I never felt that sense of belonging other males must feel with each other and women feel with they get together. I can say that gender roles do come to play regardless of how we feel. Daddy wanted me to pick up a sport, I didn't care so much. His idea of male standards wasn't met when I turned it down. Society/religion whatever have very obvious ideas that men must be the strong ones etc. So when a supposed guy isn't fulfilling that idea it's suddenly "he must be one of dem queers." (no it's not ever close to a sexual preference -_-) However women are allowed to go outside the norm, and not be called out on it. Girls doing what they want=tomboy Guys doing what they want=gay

Not sure, what makes you a woman? Cause I feel more comfortable as I am now rather than before when I was forced into that role I just described. What makes a man a man? Penis? I never really had much of one to begin with. It never fully developed. I always had breasts, hell I lactated as a teen, quite the awkward moment in class. Maybe I was mixed gender and the female part I am more comfortable with. Idk. Honestly I cant give answer other than this. I just am.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

I also wanna apologize for how snippy I got. Hormones are a um.. female dog

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I also wanna apologize for how snippy I got.

No worries.

I honestly don't know how to answer that because I have never had a male mind

I don't mean to appear flippant, but I think what you mean is you don't know what it's like to have the mind of someone else. After all, if you have never had a male mind how could you know what a female mind is like?

Daddy wanted me to pick up a sport, I didn't care so much. His idea of male standards wasn't met when I turned it down. Society/religion whatever have very obvious ideas that men must be the strong ones etc. So when a supposed guy isn't fulfilling that idea it's suddenly "he must be one of dem queers."

Ah, well that goes back to my original argument: we think we are the wrong gender because we don't do what we're "supposed" to do. If he acts like a girl he must secretly be a girl. It's a silly assumption. Being a boy and not liking football doesn't make you the wrong gender.

But I'm sure you don't want someone off the 'net psychoanalysing you.

What makes a man a man? Penis? I never really had much of one to begin with. It never fully developed. I always had breasts, hell I lactated as a teen, quite the awkward moment in class. Maybe I was mixed gender and the female part I am more comfortable with.

Too much information dude.
But If I had to guess, that sounds more like a intersex problem, not a transgender / transsexual one.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Too much information dude.
But If I had to guess, that sounds more like a intersex problem, not a transgender / transsexual one.

Please don't call me that. I am female, and I go by female acronyms. I understand that may have come off accidental but I don't like it.

I am transsexual regardless of what peoples opinions are. I have a letter from my therapist which says as much. I present female full time.

As far as I am concerned my therapists diagnosis of me is accurate.

Grrr it's almost as bad as when I get called hoss or bud or something. It really gets my blood boiling. Sorry to lock in on that one detail.

 

[LoraElise]

This is a flaw I've noticed in the transgender argument: saying that they were born in the wrong body (a female brain in male body, for example) yet at the same time saying gender roles are social, not biological. If we have male and female brains this means gender roles are evolved.

I think you have that backward. The female social behavioral differences in male-to-female gender dysphorics are caused by the brain being female. In female-to-male, the brain is wired male. Gender identity is indeed hardwired, as shown in the BSTc studies of Zhou, Gooren and Swaab.

I disagree. There have been many studies (including your link) looking at the "difference between male and female brains". The results supposedly show what men and women are better at. However all of these studies usually come from the Western world. When you go to another country or study intersexed people, the results are often completely different. This is why I think the differences between male and female brains are highly exaggerated.

They also prove the physical differences in male and female brains, not just differences in capability or function. Medicaleducationonline.org has a section devoted to this, and I quote:

(1)Total brain size: In adults, the average brain weight in men is about 11-12% MORE than the average brain weight in women. Men's heads are also about 2% bigger than women's. . This is due to the larger physical stature of men. Male’s larger muscle mass, and larger body size require more neurons to control them. This does not suggest that due to the larger brain, males are smarter than females.

(2)Cell number: men have 4% more brain cells than women , and about 100 grams more of brain tissue. this may explain why women are more prone to dementia (such as Alzheimer's disease) than men, because although both may lose the same number of neurons due to the disease, "in males, the functional reserve may be greater as a larger number of nerve cells are present, which could prevent some of the functional losses."

(3)Cellular connections: while men have more neurons in the cerebral cortex, women have a more developed neuropil, or the space between cell bodies, which contains synapses, dendrites and axons, and allows for communication among neurons .

(4)Corpus callosum: it is reported that a woman's brain has a larger corpus collusum, which means women can transfer data between the right and left hemisphere faster than men. Men tend to be more left brained, while women have greater access to both sides.(however other studies have told a different story).

(5)Hypothalamus: LeVay discovered that the volume of a specific nucleus in the hypothalamus (third cell group of the interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus) is twice as large in heterosexual men than in women and homosexual men, thus prompting a heated debate whether there is a biological basis for homosexuality.

(6)Language: two areas in the frontal and temporal lobes related to language (the areas of Broca and Wernicke) were significantly larger in women, thus providing a biological reason for women's notorious superiority in language-associated thoughts. For men, language is most often just in the dominant hemisphere (usually the left side), but a larger number of women seem to be able to use both sides for language. This gives them a distinct advantage. If a woman has a stroke in the left front side of the brain, she may still retain some language from the right front side. Men who have the same left sided damage are less likely to recover as fully. Curiously, oriental people which use pictographic (or ideographic) written languages tend also to use both sides of the brain, regardless of gender.

(7)Inferior parietal lobule (IPL): it is a brain region in the cortex, which is significantly larger in men than in women. This area is bilateral and is located just above the level of the ears (parietal cortex). Furthermore, the left side IPL is larger in men than the right side. In women, this asymmetry is reversed, although the difference between left and right sides is not so large as in men. This is the same area which was shown to be larger in the brain of Albert Einstein, as well as in other physicists and mathematicians. So, it seems that IPL's size correlates highly with mental mathematical abilities. Studies have linked the right IPL with the memory involved in understanding and manipulating spatial relationships and the ability to sense relationships between body parts. It is also related to the perception of our own affects or feelings. The left IPL is involved with perception of time and speed, and the ability of mentally rotate 3-D figures .

(8) Orbitofrontal to amygdale ratio (OAR): In one project, they measured the size of the orbitofrontal cortex, a region involved in regulating emotions, and compared it with the size of the amygdala, implicated more in producing emotional reactions. The investigators found that women possess a significantly larger orbitofrontal-to-amygdala ratio (OAR) than men do. One can speculate from these findings that women might on average prove more capable of controlling their emotional reactions.

(9)Limbic size: females, on average, have a larger deep limbic system than males. This gives females several advantages and disadvantages. Due to the larger deep limbic brain women are more in touch with their feelings, they are generally better able to express their feelings than men. They have an increased ability to bond and be connected to others . Females have a more acute sense of smell, which is likely to have developed from an evolutionary need for the mother to recognize her young. Having a larger deep limbic system leaves a female somewhat more susceptible to depression, especially at times of significant hormonal changes such as the onset of puberty, before menses, after the birth of a child and at menopause. Women attempt suicide three times more than men. Yet, men kill themselves three times more than women, in part, because they use more violent means of killing themselves (women tend to use overdoses with pills while men tend to either shoot or hang themselves) and men are generally less connected to others than are women. Disconnection from others increases the risk of completed suicides.


Male and female brains, just like the rest of their bodies, are physically different. Gender identity is hardwired, and no one decides which one they possess -- it is determined in the womb (as so well shown in the CF thread 'The Science of Transsexuality : FAQ').

Not wanting to believe something does not prove it false, nor does it make it go away.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

(Lots o' lists in this next post)

The female social behavioral differences in male-to-female gender dysphorics are caused by the brain being female. In female-to-male, the brain is wired male. Gender identity is indeed hardwired.

Again, I disagree. But my original questions still remain:

• What makes a person think they're the wrong gender? Is it because they act like girls rather than boys? Being a boy and not liking sports doesn't make him gay or transgender.
• We cannot argue that we have male and female brains and at the same time say gender roles are social. Having male and female brains means gender roles are evolved.

---------------------------
On to your points - to clarify, I'm not arguing that the brains of men and women are identical, I'm saying that the differences between them are exaggerated and they're not fixed:

1) and 2) Men have larger brains and 4% more brain cells simply because they are physically bigger than women.

4) As you say, many other studies have told a different story.

5) This is an important point - if it is possible to have "a woman's brain in a man's body" it simply means they're more likely to be gay, not transgender.

6) "Curiously, oriental people which use pictographic (or ideographic) written languages tend also to use both sides of the brain, regardless of gender." - Confirming my point that the studies looking at the differences between male and female brains are determined by culture more than by gender.

8) "One can speculate from these findings that women might on average prove more capable of controlling their emotional reactions." - Again, this shows that culture seems to be more of an influence than gender. In 19th century Britain, it was firmly believed that women had little control over their emotions.

-----------------------
Gender identity / roles are not fixed and they are, at best, only partly influenced by biology. Studies looking at gender identity often conform to our modern, Western ideas on how men and women should act.

A good way to debunk these ideas is to:
a) conduct the same study in a non-Western country
b) compare modern attitudes to attitudes from a different era or
c) preform a study when at least one party is anonymous
d) study people who are intersexed (this usually gives the most varied results)

 

[LoraElise]

What makes a person think they're the wrong gender? Is it because they act like girls rather than boys?

No. It's because their innate sense of who they are is female, just as a cisgendered person's sense of self matches their outward body.

This is an important point - if it is possible to have "a woman's brain in a man's body" it simply means they're more likely to be gay, not transgender.

No, it doesn't. Sexual preference and gender identity are two completely different and unrelated things. The overwhelming majority of gay men have male brains, enjoy being men and having physically male bodies, and have no desire whatsoever to change their physical selves. Male-to-female gender dysphorics, on the other hand, have female gender identities, can be either gay or straight, and feel an extreme discomfort with their physical selves. They are women in brain, mind and soul and want only to live the female lives they were wired to live.

"Curiously, oriental people which use pictographic (or ideographic) written languages tend also to use both sides of the brain, regardless of gender." - Confirming my point that the studies looking at the differences between male and female brains are determined by culture more than by gender.

Facility and physical structure are two different things. Language (or the loss of a limb or of an eye or whatever) forcing a modification of use has no bearing on the original male/female form of the brain.

Gender identity / roles are not fixed and they are, at best, only partly influenced by biology.

You are confusing gender roles with gender identity. Roles are socially dictated -- identity is innate and established prenatally. Just as you continue to depict being gay and being gender dysphoric as synonymous, you are erring here.

The studies of Zhou, Swaab, Lindstrom and others show definitively that the brains of male-to-female gender dysphorics, in the area of the hypothalamus that determines gender identity, are female in structure.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Though women will never admit it, life is generally more giving for a female. Explains a lot in my personal opinion.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

It's because their innate sense of who they are is female, just as a cisgendered person's sense of self matches their outward body.

But again - what makes them think they're female?

No, it doesn't. Sexual preference and gender identity are two completely different and unrelated things.

Yes I know. Transgender people argue that they have the brain of one gender and the body of another - say, a female brain in a male body. But having a "feminized" brain is simply more likely to make them gay, not transgender. Being happy as a man doesn't mean one has a "male brain".

Facility and physical structure are two different things. Language (or the loss of a limb or of an eye or whatever) forcing a modification of use has no bearing on the original male/female form of the brain.

Your first post was on language and gender, showing a study which suggested women dedicate more of their brain to language than men do - therefore women have evolved better language skills. When using a language other than English though, this gender distinction disappears. That means it's the language itself - not their gender - which determines how much of their brains they use. This study is not a good example to use if we're arguing that women's brains are inherently different to men.

You are confusing gender roles with gender identity.

On the contrary, I see gender roles and gender identity as being quite different. A woman may have a gender identity as female (because she has two X chromosomes) but her gender role might be traditionally male - perhaps she's in the army. I suspect it's transgenders who fail to see a distinction, because if they act in a way people of the opposite sex tend to act, they seem to assume they are secretly the opposite sex. They assume they have the wrong body.

Sorry I keep repeating myself but I haven't yet had a straight answer: what makes a person think they're the wrong gender?

 

[LoraElise]

Though women will never admit it, life is generally more giving for a female. Explains a lot in my personal opinion.

I really hope you aren't saying that gender dysphorics choose to be so because 'life is easier for women.' That claim would be wrong (and offensive) on so many levels, I wouldn't know where to start.

There are also dysphorics with female outer bodies whose brains are hardwired male.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

There are also dysphorics with female outer bodies whose brains are hardwired male.

How are they hardwired to be male? Are they good at maths?

 

[Sum1sGruj]

I really hope you aren't saying that gender dysphorics choose to be so because 'life is easier for women.' That claim would be wrong (and offensive) on so many levels, I wouldn't know where to start.

There are also dysphorics with female outer bodies whose brains are hardwired male.

But you see, it isn't naturally hardwired. Notice that men and woman do not even realize the difference until experiencing life and seeing how the two roles work. It's a choice encouraged by the environment, not 'hardwired'. Male and female tendencies that are hardwired are anything but dressing, acting, and prescribing as such.

I don't buy that at all. Maybe one should be careful with the word 'offensive' because it's offensive for such an idea to be thrown in one's face that they know is far-fetched.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

How are they hardwired to be male? Are they good at maths?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Yeah, that's not an answer. Again, what does it mean to be "hardwired to be male"?

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Well I can say it definitely doesn't have to do with math. I would imagine it has to do with the phantom limb feeling they get. Feeling that there is a penis there when it really is not. A.E.Brain: The Brain-Body Map and other Neurological Issues
and A.E.Brain: Transsexuals and the phantom penis I feel that I have a vagina, and the need to cover my chest when it was exposed etc.

 

[LoraElise]

Transgender people argue that they have the brain of one gender and the body of another - say, a female brain in a male body. But having a "feminized" brain is simply more likely to make them gay, not transgender.

You keep making this untrue assertion, as if it were proven fact or something. Most gay men are not feminine at all. Gender dysphoric women know they are female the same way all women do -- they are wired that way. It's innate.

I suspect it's transgenders who fail to see a distinction, because if they act in a way people of the opposite sex tend to act, they seem to assume they are secretly the opposite sex. They assume they have the wrong body.

No one 'assumes' they are gender dysphoric. Nor is their identity dictated by their behavior.

Sorry I keep repeating myself but I haven't yet had a straight answer: what makes a person think they're the wrong gender?

Again -- a person knows (not thinks) they are of a mismatched gender. They are hardwired as such in the womb. At about 12 weeks, if a baby is genetically male, a hormone surge in the baby's body takes tissues already on the way to being little girl parts and changes them to little boy parts. Four weeks later, if there is no interruption in development, a second surge rewires the already-female brain into that of a boy. Sometimes, stress or chemical intake or drugs or any number of things affect that fragile process, the baby's development is temporarily derailed and the brain does not get rewired. And if that happens, a little girl is born who happens to have the outward body of a boy.

Anyone who has raised children (such as myself) does not have to be told that little boys and little girls, long before they are even old enough to know there is a physical difference between them, are innately very different. They do not learn to be the gender they are. No one does. The David Reimer case proved that once and for all.

I really don't know how else to explain this. If you haven't already, please read the CF thread 'The Science of Transsexuality : FAQ.' It should answer any questions you have.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

You honestly can't explain it more than that. If they don't wanna understand it's cool. I understand some people need to hide their head in the sand and say lalalalala i can't hear you so it doesn't mean anything.

I honestly think of this when I start debating with people here sometimes.

YouTube - ‪Family Guy kevin bacon was'nt in footloose‬‏

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Hmm ...
Thanks for the link Amber but this raises more questions. There have been many sufferes of phantom limb syndrome and it's not quite clear what causes it (although certain strokes can sometimes "cure" this syndrome). We don't really know what causes the brains' 'body map'.

But this sheds light on the subject - transgenders don't have male or female brains in the wrong body, that have brains which fit their bodies, but have a damaged body map.

I honestly think of this when I start debating with people here sometimes.

Don't be stroppy just because people disagree with you.