Transgender "Inclusive"Language:Where does it end and begin?

[katerinah1947]

Many of your posts are addressing the person instead of the post. Please address the content of the post instead of the person themselves.

If you feel you are being flamed, the proper way to handle it is to report the post, not address the flame.

Hi,

I would think for and of myself, that names corresponding to all the transgender persons and everyone else I meet would be easy, as after all I am a transgender woman.

However, my Agender friend, it still took awhile for me to adapt. Interesting. Also, almost all of the transgender men I meet, are no problem for me as almost all of them in town here are on hormones, and they have facial hair and deep voices, with some of them being indistinguisable to me, from male bodied persons born, untransgendered.

I find it interesting, that even I have to work at the gender thing even in that community of which I am a member.

What really helps is clues, after they tell me their name. The ones who cannot afford transition, or their health does not permit it, I work the hardest on, but they are also the ones that for me spur the most amount of concern.

I can still see the fingernail polish on the hands of an otherwise outwardly appearing male. She, in this case made my life ever so much easier, as I was in there talking to all of them. As the evening went on, in this Trans Only Friday Night meeting in Portland Oregon, with perhaps 20 to 30 people there, she was ever so naturally feminine in all her ways. But, the finger nail polish really helped me.

I liked the angry Agender person. He was so upset at the start of the meeting, and by 2/3rds he had totally calmed down, as he realized that attacks on his personage are normally only done by people with a very special background. It took her/him/neither a while to process the early information, but as I watched, soon knowledge took over and calmed him/her/neither.

My favorite, but also hard person there was this rather striking and beautiful woman. She was sort of leading the conversations although there was therapist there who was not her. I was there to handle a Suicide Emergency Remotely, and just rushed up from Corvallis to get there. It seemed to help, and the person who was thinking about killing herself, was told and then I left, that I was attending a meeting of her peers, in proxy. She is fine now, but as the meeting was over, I asked to talk to this rather cis-gendered woman.

Nicely I got to ask her, why she was in the meeting. I meant why are you here looking so cis-gendered, when everyone else is transgendered. "I am not cis-gendered. I am here to let people know just how succesful you can be, if you try. Here is a picture of me two years ago."

I refused to look at it at first, and when I did I hated it. Soon though, her point was made, at one time she too suffered more. She still had that female thing going on, where you can find fault with your own looks all of the time, no matter what you look like. We discussed some of that, and she was wrong in her own self assessment.

I have to be kind, and ask, even in my own group of people. To be kind, seems to be the issue at hand. To love the other person, rather than loving myself, is the issue, it seems to me. At least that is what I am allowed to do now, I am allowed to not see or feel myself emotionally when, I am in the presence of someone else, who needs me. I hope that will always be the case. It wasn't once. I did not like those years, before that change also.

LOVE,

 

[DaisyDay]

Do you feel the same way about deafness, a gift from God that shouldn't be corrected if possible?

I understand that there are those in the deaf community who do, in fact, feel that way and that getting cochlear implants is a betrayal of sorts.

I believe it was katarinah who said she wished she had gotten surgical correction as a child - she compared it to fixing a cleft palate.

 

[DaisyDay]

To be kind, seems to be the issue at hand.

I think that is what it boils down to, kindness and Christ's Great Commandment.

 

[Armoured]

I understand that there are those in the deaf community who do, in fact, feel that way and that getting cochlear implants is a betrayal of sorts.

I believe it was katarinah who said she wished she had gotten surgical correction as a child - she compared it to fixing a cleft palate.

I believe there are some "def advocates" who believe something similar. I recall a story from a while ago, not sure if fictional, of a pair of deaf parents who wanted the right to surgically deafen their son. May have been fictional, like I say, but it certainly shows that people have thought along those lines.

 

[razzelflabben]

Hi,

I would think for and of myself, that names corresponding to all the transgender persons and everyone else I meet would be easy, as after all I am a transgender woman.

However, my Agender friend, it still took awhile for me to adapt. Interesting. Also, almost all of the transgender men I meet, are no problem for me as almost all of them in town here are on hormones, and they have facial hair and deep voices, with some of them being indistinguisable to me, from male bodied persons born, untransgendered.

I find it interesting, that even I have to work at the gender thing even in that community of which I am a member.

What really helps is clues, after they tell me their name. The ones who cannot afford transition, or their health does not permit it, I work the hardest on, but they are also the ones that for me spur the most amount of concern.

I can still see the fingernail polish on the hands of an otherwise outwardly appearing male. She, in this case made my life ever so much easier, as I was in there talking to all of them. As the evening went on, in this Trans Only Friday Night meeting in Portland Oregon, with perhaps 20 to 30 people there, she was ever so naturally feminine in all her ways. But, the finger nail polish really helped me.

I liked the angry Agender person. He was so upset at the start of the meeting, and by 2/3rds he had totally calmed down, as he realized that attacks on his personage are normally only done by people with a very special background. It took her/him/neither a while to process the early information, but as I watched, soon knowledge took over and calmed him/her/neither.

My favorite, but also hard person there was this rather striking and beautiful woman. She was sort of leading the conversations although there was therapist there who was not her. I was there to handle a Suicide Emergency Remotely, and just rushed up from Corvallis to get there. It seemed to help, and the person who was thinking about killing herself, was told and then I left, that I was attending a meeting of her peers, in proxy. She is fine now, but as the meeting was over, I asked to talk to this rather cis-gendered woman.

Nicely I got to ask her, why she was in the meeting. I meant why are you here looking so cis-gendered, when everyone else is transgendered. "I am not cis-gendered. I am here to let people know just how succesful you can be, if you try. Here is a picture of me two years ago."

I refused to look at it at first, and when I did I hated it. Soon though, her point was made, at one time she too suffered more. She still had that female thing going on, where you can find fault with your own looks all of the time, no matter what you look like. We discussed some of that, and she was wrong in her own self assessment.

I have to be kind, and ask, even in my own group of people. To be kind, seems to be the issue at hand. To love the other person, rather than loving myself, is the issue, it seems to me. At least that is what I am allowed to do now, I am allowed to not see or feel myself emotionally when, I am in the presence of someone else, who needs me. I hope that will always be the case. It wasn't once. I did not like those years, before that change also.

LOVE,

Now, let me point out that in your post you refer to transgenders as "her/him/neither" which when non transgenders do this they are attacked and told how evil they are being and how hateful they sound to the transgenders, but you, a transgender person is okay to do so and applauded for being so open and honest. ?!?! Really!?!?

My first teaching job was in an inner city classroom of the roughest kids in the high school. One day, a large black male student stood up and punched an average sized white kid in the face. When he came back to school, it came out that the white kid had called the black kid a Niger. That very same day, another black kid called the kid a Niger and nothing happened. I asked them why? His response was that it was okay for black people to use the Niger word but white people couldn't. Really?!!!!! I told the entire class at that moment that if Niger was a derogatory term it was no no matter who said it.

The point of the story is this....if it is derogatory and hateful for someone to call a transgender person she/he/it/neither, if that is hate speech, then it is hate speech for everyone, including but not limited to the transgender person. In fact, it is not hate speech but rather it is a way of respecting a person who we don't know what they prefer to be called. But because some here do not listen and want to stir trouble, it is viewed as hate by some and respect by others...I call foul play, I call non sense, I call hog wash on the double standard. I also call hog wash on judging people without ever knowing what they believe because of lack of response to posts in favor of misrepresenting and reading into things that are not there.

 

[Cute Tink]

Now, let me point out that in your post you refer to transgenders as "her/him/neither" which when non transgenders do this they are attacked and told how evil they are being and how hateful they sound to the transgenders, but you, a transgender person is okay to do so and applauded for being so open and honest. ?!?! Really!?!?

Her/him/neither is different than the "her/him/it" that people get called out for. The "it" is the problematic part. Some people prefer something other than male or female pronouns.

The point of the story is this....if it is derogatory and hateful for someone to call a transgender person she/he/it/neither, if that is hate speech, then it is hate speech for everyone, including but not limited to the transgender person. In fact, it is not hate speech but rather it is a way of respecting a person who we don't know what they prefer to be called. But because some here do not listen and want to stir trouble, it is viewed as hate by some and respect by others...I call foul play, I call non sense, I call hog wash on the double standard. I also call hog wash on judging people without ever knowing what they believe because of lack of response to posts in favor of misrepresenting and reading into things that are not there.

Calling a person an "it" is generally viewed as dehumanizing.

The word "transgender" is still an adjective.

 

[razzelflabben]

Her/him/neither is different than the "her/him/it" that people get called out for. The "it" is the problematic part. Some people prefer something other than male or female pronouns.

so you want us to change the english lang. to accommodate a small portion of the population? That takes us back to the OP question, where does it start and stop? When do we say enough redefining words? According to word definitions, it is less offensive than neither in that neither indicates a non person while it simply means that we don't know what gender is being referred to. But again, it isn't about the word it or neither, it's about when do we stop trying to change word meanings to accommodate every group that wants to be offended? By your answer here, I'm guessing you don't think there is a stopping point until it offends you...iow's what offends you is the stopping point and no one else matters, but I base that conclusion on your objections to the proper use of the terms in question.

Calling a person an "it" is generally viewed as dehumanizing.

only by those who what to be offended. On line dictionary says this, especially note the highlighted parts in that they say exactly what I am saying to you and these aren't even my words....
pronoun, nominative it, possessive its or (Obsoleteor Dialect) it,objective it; plural nominative they, possessive their or theirs, objective them.

1.
(used to represent an inanimate thing understood, previouslymentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediatecontext):
It has whitewall tires and red upholstery. You can't tell a book by itscover.
2.
(used to represent a person or animal understood, previously mentioned, or about to be mentioned whose gender is unknown or disregarded):
It was the largest ever caught off the Florida coast. Who was it? It wasJohn. The horse had its saddle on.
3.
(used to represent a group understood or previously mentioned):
The judge told the jury it must decide two issues.
4.
(used to represent a concept or abstract idea understood or previously stated):
It all started with Adam and Eve. He has been taught to believe it all his life.
5.
(used to represent an action or activity understood, previouslymentioned, or about to be mentioned):
Since you don't like it, you don't have to go skiing.
6.
(used as the impersonal subject of the verb to be, especially to refer to time, distance, or the weather):
It is six o'clock. It is five miles to town. It was foggy.
7.
(used in statements expressing an action, condition, fact,circumstance, or situation without reference to an agent):
If it weren't for Edna, I wouldn't go.[/quote]

The word "transgender" is still an adjective.[/QUOTE]we have had this discussion and I showed you evidence that you are only telling half the story, but no matter, I conformed to your wishes and changed to calling them transgender people, something I find degrading but something you seem to think is edifying....

 

[Cute Tink]

so you want us to change the english lang. to accommodate a small portion of the population?

Small portions of the population aren't deserving of respect?

You don't have to agree with me, but I do know that many trans people find being called "it" to be very offensive.

we have had this discussion and I showed you evidence that you are only telling half the story, but no matter, I conformed to your wishes and changed to calling them transgender people, something I find degrading but something you seem to think is edifying....

1. You actually didn't, but if you are going to complain about altering the English language, probably best to not use an adjective as a noun.
2. You have used the term "transgenders" again. It's the equivalent to saying "olds" or "youngs" instead of "young people"
3. Not sure why you think it's degrading to call us "trans people" instead of the improper "transgenders".

 

[razzelflabben]

Small portions of the population aren't deserving of respect?

what in heavens name makes you think that portions of the population aren't deserving of respect? How sad that you feel this way. Personally, I believe that everyone deserves respect which is why I choose respectful words rather than disrespectful ones like you seem to do in your posts. I will be praying for you to learn to respect all people.

Oh, and don't try to tell me that I am reading into your posts, cause I am learning from you how to respond to people that I want to pretend I don't agree with. Since the mods aren't correcting you, I'll assume your method is acceptable and follow suit.

You don't have to agree with me, but I do know that many trans people find being called "it" to be very offensive.

I'm sure they do, just like many people get offended by all kinds of things that are not offensive at all. Look at all the riots we have been having. In fact, saw a video not long ago of a woman who proclaimed that her son shooting a cop for no reason was a good thing because cops offended her. That doesn't mean it is offensive to have cops, it means that the woman was out of control and desiring to be offended.

1. You actually didn't, but if you are going to complain about altering the English language, probably best to not use an adjective as a noun.
2. You have used the term "transgenders" again. It's the equivalent to saying "olds" or "youngs" instead of "young people"
3. Not sure why you think it's degrading to call us "trans people" instead of the improper "transgenders".

lol...not going into this discussion again, I already showed you why it is disrespectful and if you are referring to my occasional slip of not typing person after transgender as if to say that we don't believe they are people unless we type person, how bad I am for forgetting to make sure that you know that transgender people are real people and not some monstrosity like you want to make them out to be.

 

[Armoured]

More imply than deny! It's maddening!

 

[katerinah1947]

Now, let me point out that in your post you refer to transgenders as "her/him/neither" which when non transgenders do this they are attacked and told how evil they are being and how hateful they sound to the transgenders, but you, a transgender person is okay to do so and applauded for being so open and honest. ?!?! Really!?!?

My first teaching job was in an inner city classroom of the roughest kids in the high school. One day, a large black male student stood up and punched an average sized white kid in the face. When he came back to school, it came out that the white kid had called the black kid a Niger. That very same day, another black kid called the kid a Niger and nothing happened. I asked them why? His response was that it was okay for black people to use the Niger word but white people couldn't. Really?!!!!! I told the entire class at that moment that if Niger was a derogatory term it was no no matter who said it.

The point of the story is this....if it is derogatory and hateful for someone to call a transgender person she/he/it/neither, if that is hate speech, then it is hate speech for everyone, including but not limited to the transgender person. In fact, it is not hate speech but rather it is a way of respecting a person who we don't know what they prefer to be called. But because some here do not listen and want to stir trouble, it is viewed as hate by some and respect by others...I call foul play, I call non sense, I call hog wash on the double standard. I also call hog wash on judging people without ever knowing what they believe because of lack of response to posts in favor of misrepresenting and reading into things that are not there.

Hi,

His name is Alex.

He says he is agender.

He tells me that he is neither male, nor female, but rather neither.

He tells me he is also asexual.

He has seen a doctor for this.

They said yes, you are what you say you are, thus we cannot and will not give you hormones. Hormones are for transgender people like me, who know what gender they are.

What would you have me call that person in your estimation, other than what he says he is, and what the doctors say he is.

On the pronoun he. He, says that although he is neither male nor female, that is a convenience he gives to all of us, who wish to talk to him easily.

His birth body, is female.

His/her/neither only refers to Alex, it does not refer to any other transgender person, unless they tell me that is who and what they are.

Cute Tink, is female. I call her by what she is.

LOVE,

 

[razzelflabben]

Hi,

His name is Alex.

He says he is agender.

He tells me that he is neither male, nor female, but rather neither.

He tells me he is also asexual.

He has seen a doctor for this.

They said yes, you are what you say you are, thus we cannot and will not give you hormones. Hormones are for transgender people like me, who know what gender they are.

What would you have me call that person in your estimation, other than what he says he is, and what the doctors say he is.

On the pronoun he. He, says that although he is neither male nor female, that is a convenience he gives to all of us, who wish to talk to him easily.

His birth body, is female.

LOVE,

it would be rude and disrespectful to refer to an agender person as neither since that would also carry the idea of none human. Rather words like agender, person, it, being, etc. would be less offensive in that they are still referring to the human nature by definition. But, hey, far be it from me to tell you how to respect people, according to the posts on this thread, most people here who want to promote transgender people as something they aren't, don't know how to respect anyone, including but not limited to themselves. I hope and pray you all do better in your personal lives than you do on these boards.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

If a person tells me they are female. I comply. If a person tells me they are a male I comply. If a person tells me they are a teacher, I comply. I am a scientist, and transgender. Will anyone comply with that, and. And, because it came up before, if a person says they are agender. I comply.

I am mystical, and no I did not make that pronouncement another did. Will anyone Comply?

I am Christian, will any one comply with that.

I am mystically married, and actually I expect no one, except deeply Spiritual persons to comply with that.

People here, seem to be saying they will not comply with others. Some people here seem to comply.

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

it would be rude and disrespectful to refer to an agender person as neither since that would also carry the idea of none human. Rather words like agender, person, it, being, etc. would be less offensive in that they are still referring to the human nature by definition. But, hey, far be it from me to tell you how to respect people, according to the posts on this thread, most people here who want to promote transgender people as something they aren't, don't know how to respect anyone, including but not limited to themselves. I hope and pray you all do better in your personal lives than you do on these boards.

Hi,

Tell him that. You actually want to tell the person who has asked me to call him that way, that it is disrespectful, that he does not know what makes him complete and whole verbally?

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

it would be rude and disrespectful to refer to an agender person as neither since that would also carry the idea of none human. Rather words like agender, person, it, being, etc. would be less offensive in that they are still referring to the human nature by definition. But, hey, far be it from me to tell you how to respect people, according to the posts on this thread, most people here who want to promote transgender people as something they aren't, don't know how to respect anyone, including but not limited to themselves. I hope and pray you all do better in your personal lives than you do on these boards.

Hi,

Non sexual or non gendered is not the same as non human. If you want to, tell me what you would like to tell him, and I will send it to him.

We have been communicating for a year. He loves being called male/female/neither and totally identifies with the concept of not only no gender, but no sexual attration to either sex. That last idea is asexual.

LOVE,

 

[razzelflabben]

Hi,

Tell him that. You actually want to tell the person who has asked me to call him that way, that it is disrespectful, that he does not know what makes him complete and whole verbally?

LOVE,

You want me to believe "he" asked you to call "him" HE/SHE/NEITHER? interesting....very interesting...I have never met anyone who wanted to be called he/she/neither all at the same time...that is in fact very cumbersome.

 

[razzelflabben]

Hi,

Non sexual or non gendered is not the same as non human. If you want to, tell me what you would like to tell him, and I will send it to him.

We have been communicating for a year. He loves being called male/female/neither and totally identifies with the concept of not only no gender, but no sexual attration to either sex. That last idea is asexual.

LOVE,

I'm just wondering why all three have to be there in order to consider it proper? For anyone.

 

[joshua 1 9]

They said yes, you are what you say you are, thus we cannot and will not give you hormones. Hormones are for transgender people like me, who know what gender they are.

Why do you feel that you need to take hormones? Is there some reason your body is not producing those hormones?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Do you feel the same way about deafness, a gift from God that shouldn't be corrected if possible?

God does not allow anything in our lives unless good is able to come out of it. We are told "that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." Even we are told to "give thanks for everything". When I first read that I thought you got to be kidding me. There was so much in life not to be grateful for. Yet we are told to give thanks for everything.

When it comes to things like deafness then you are dealing with sensory deprivation and the mind has ways to compensate for that. If a person is blind from birth and later in life they are able to have a transplant and have sight for the first time, there will still be issues because they did not have sight at essential development stages.

 

[katerinah1947]

You want me to believe "he" asked you to call "him" HE/SHE/NEITHER? interesting....very interesting...I have never met anyone who wanted to be called he/she/neither all at the same time...that is in fact very cumbersome.

Hi,

I certainly care nothing about what you believe. It is not my job.

I can prove that statement. Do you wish it to be done, but with consequences for you? I will see if he, who I just exchanged two emails with today, will counter your words with his words, or whether he will agree with you?

I would rather not bother him, as he has been abused vebally and assaulted for years over this issue, thus suffered at one time from severe PTSD. He also gets flashbacks from time to time.

If you need this I will tell him of your need, and see what gender wise, he/she/neither who goes by the personal name of Alex with me, for my conveniences, and I will see if he will respond to you directly, so you don't have to interface with me.

I will want something from you, if you take it this far.

Do you want to go there or not?

LOVE,