Toxic Masculinity Vs Toxic Femininity

[Akita Suggagaki]

The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys in patriarchal societies often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" about bullying and aggression.

Toxic masculinity - Wikipedia


Brenda R. Weber uses the term toxic femininity for a code of conformity and social pressure to rigid feminine gender roles, reinforced through (sometimes unconscious) beliefs, such as viewing oneself as unworthy, and imperatives to be consistently pleasant, accommodating, and compliant. According to Weber, such beliefs and expectations "[suggest] there is no a priori female self" apart from the needs and desires of men and boys. Weber associates these norms with "usually white, mostly middle-class, relentlessly heterosexual, and typically politically conservative" expectations of femininity.

Roopika Risam writes that charges of toxic femininity have become an Internet meme, exemplary of tensions between feminists online over the concept of intersectionality, and directed primarily towards non-white feminists who are seen as disruptive of mainstream feminist discussions (see Misogynoir).[24] For example, the writer Michelle Goldberg has criticized online call-out culture as "toxic," likening it to feminist Jo Freeman's concept of "trashing."

Internalized sexism - Wikipedia

 

[Wolseley]

All of the "definitionizing" is making my head hurt. We're getting into 5,000 different ideas of what is what and what is bad and what is good, and I'm going to deal with by declaring "A pox on both your houses!" and disengaging.

I'm sure there are some perfectly dandy movies on IMDB that I could be watching---so here I go.

 

[Christopher0121]

My 10 year old daughter has done that in the past too. I see it more as poor manors than "toxic masculinity".

But also, I see it as a bad stereotype when women assume this to be typical man-type behavior.. Clearly it's not.

You know, my daughter has done the same thing. It is poor manners.

 

[Christopher0121]

In the case of that list, the "beholder" is a group of highly qualified therapists working with young men with serious issues, so I'd say that gives it some weight.

Eh, I'm not meaning any offense, but I'm a straight shooter here. Many of these "highly qualified therapists" affirm that there are more than just two genders. Being a vet, I've talked to a few of these "highly qualified therapists". Half of them need a serious reality adjustment.

Is some of this subjective? Sure. But does that mean we should entirely dismiss it as a social and cultural phenomenon? I'm not so sure. I look at that list and I see real and serious social issues which deserve to be tackled.

I look at the list and I think that "violence" definitely needs to be addressed. However, if my manners being a veteran, a gun owner, a hunter, a fisherman, a 911 Dispatcher, a straight male, a Christian male offends someone... I'm not toxic. I'm simply me. And frankly, I don't care what they think. If they are so fragile talking with me 20 minutes leaves them triggered... they need to consult one of them there "highly qualified therapists" so they can learn that they can't push me to be someone I'm not... and to label me could be slander or libel.

 

[Christopher0121]

The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys in patriarchal societies often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" about bullying and aggression.

Toxic masculinity - Wikipedia


Brenda R. Weber uses the term toxic femininity for a code of conformity and social pressure to rigid feminine gender roles, reinforced through (sometimes unconscious) beliefs, such as viewing oneself as unworthy, and imperatives to be consistently pleasant, accommodating, and compliant. According to Weber, such beliefs and expectations "[suggest] there is no a priori female self" apart from the needs and desires of men and boys. Weber associates these norms with "usually white, mostly middle-class, relentlessly heterosexual, and typically politically conservative" expectations of femininity.

Roopika Risam writes that charges of toxic femininity have become an Internet meme, exemplary of tensions between feminists online over the concept of intersectionality, and directed primarily towards non-white feminists who are seen as disruptive of mainstream feminist discussions (see Misogynoir).[24] For example, the writer Michelle Goldberg has criticized online call-out culture as "toxic," likening it to feminist Jo Freeman's concept of "trashing."

Internalized sexism - Wikipedia

Sadly, they want a society of passive soy boys.

Unfortunately... I like passive soy boys on my cereal. lol

 

[Christopher0121]

I agree, these things are indeed toxic masculinity. Or Machismo, in Latin America.

But I believe there is such thing as toxic femininity too.

Yeah... but if those "highly qualified therapists" don't believe there's any such thing as toxic femininity all you have is an opinion.

 

[Krav Maga]

Well, here's a list of traits associated with toxic masculinity from an organisation which works with young men with addiction issues etc (the whole page is worth a read).

• Unconditional physical toughness
• Physical aggression, fear of emotions
• Discrimination against people that aren't heterosexual
• Hyper independence
• Sexual aggression or violence
• Anti-feminist behavior

1. Unconditional physical toughness. If we’re talking about men’s view of themselves then I disagree as some men want to be physically strong there’s nothing wrong with this. Many women want to lose weight and many men want to be unconditionally physically strong and emotionally. Men throughout history have wanted to be strong regardless if it was for hunting, building or attracting a mate. Biblical strength like Samson and Noah. Even Jesus had to carry his cross which took lots of physical strength.

2. Physical aggression/ fear of emotions. As far as aggression goes that’s just normal as men have testosterone that naturally makes men more aggressive. But men have to learn to channel this aggression to healthy outlets, not deny that it’s not natural for males.

Testosterone and Aggressive Behavior in Man

Fear of emotions. Yes I fully agree men should be able to show emotions as we’re human. But one of the reasons is especially in relationships those emotions we opened up about will later be used against us (as women often times especially in divorce weaponize those emotions). So we bottle them up. But yes men are also told by other men to never show emotions as it’s weak. So men are told by men and used against us by women, so we don’t show emotion as much as women do.

watch this video of who men go to:

Rachel on TikTok

3. Discrimination against homosexuals. Discrimination against any group of people is toxic and wrong. Now as Christians we can say it’s sinful and not promote this as healthy. But we shouldn’t bully or attack those who view relationships differently. Our worldview shouldn’t be forced on others.

4. Hyper independence. Both men and women struggle with this one. The notion men use “I am strong, I don’t need anyone “ or women “I am a strong independent woman I don’t need men” are both toxic views. As human beings we’re meant to be social and have healthy relationships (not just romantic ones) with the opposite sex.

5. sexual aggression and violence. Some sexual aggression if both partners agree to it and enjoy it is fine. But abuse is never alright.

6. Anti-feminist behavior. Women shouldn’t be treated any differently then men are treated fully agree. But some under the umbrella of feminism like abortion and having majority of custody of children shouldn’t be something that men should be forced to agree with. Today feminism is you’re with us or against us, today lots of men would be considered anti-feminist.

I think we all support women living as partners with all the same rights and privileges that men enjoy. We’re all human and nobody should be discriminated against because of sex.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I just hope we don't become so "tough" we begin joining gangs, and start marking our territory, by spraying walls.

...There is a point, IMO, where toughness crosses over into returning to our animal instincts, and intelligence loses value.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Yeah... but if those "highly qualified therapists" don't believe there's any such thing as toxic femininity all you have is an opinion.

I think those "highly qualified therapists" were people dealing with gang affiliated, drug addicted, juvenile delinquents, and then naming their common traits "toxic masculinity".

In the normal world, there is a healthy kind of masculinity that doesn't lead men into criminal situations.

 

[Christopher0121]

I think toxic femininity should be a term to describe when a woman uses physical appeal to take advantage of men. Or at least attempts to.

I've seen this behavior before, and it's entirely toxic by it's own deceitful nature.

That is truly toxic. I was physically abused by my mother growing up. Endured 8 years of military life. I work with police, fire, and EMS today.

I've seen toxic femininity in full display. Not saying men can't be toxic. I just chalk 'em up to being "A-holes". They probably think the same of me. lol

 

[Christopher0121]

My personal take on toxic femininity is that it's often the sins of the relatively powerless; dishonesty, manipulation, passive aggression and so on. The indirect toxic behaviours resorted to by those who don't have the direct means to impose their wills on others.

That makes sense.

Human nature sucks. We're always wanting to dominate others. And for some reason instead of bringing equity to all... we just reverse the oppression and call it justice.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Human nature sucks. We're always wanting to dominate others.

All humans do this, including women, though personally I try to keep my narcissism in check.

But I do believe narcissistic traits exist in both women and men.

 

[Christopher0121]

I am not saying this behaviour is not damaging! I listed dishonesty and manipulation (which agreed with your prior post), and I think these are deeply damaging behaviours. They are indeed toxic.

Sorry, I'm kind of on the prowl right now. My wife and 4 daughters in real life, kind of have a little disagreement going on with me, the only male in the house.

I might be taking my frustrations out on all women right now, honestly.

Ouch. I've been there. I remember listening in on my ex-wife when she had friends over for "ladies night". I was shocked. I was always under the impression that it was my duty to protect my partner's honor and not talk about them behind their back or belittle them to others. They were trash talking me and all their husbands like you wouldn't believe. I've NEVER heard men talk that nasty about their wives. And half the time we're being tongue in cheek because we know we're just rolling with a conversational norm. But these women... they were BRUTAL.

My daughter (step) had to be schooled when play fighting her brother (my biological son) to pull her punches. Is it just my daughter...? Or are other young ladies oblivious to how boys pull punches when wrestling around with one another? I mean she was just beating the tar out of him and laughing. She even knocked a couple of his friends to the ground. LOL I had to pull her aside and explain what "pulling punches" means and that boys NEVER use full strength then play fighting in order to ensure we don't hurt ourselves or our friends. She seemed like that never occurred to her. LOL Funny thing is... no one ever had to pull me and my friends aside and tell us to play fight. It was instinctive in our play.

I said that because after dealing with women for 46 years I've learned... they don't know how to pull a punch or be gentle or even cautious when dealing with men in play fighting or even emotionally. lol

 

[Christopher0121]

It's very, very often that I am sorry. Because it's very, very often I am told that I am in the wrong.

...I'm sure this will blow over, and I'll be back to normal very soon. (Prolly I shouldn't have said something that could be so easily exploited, eh. )

...because it's all in the details. And those details stick like glue.

For me it never got better. The older my step daughter got the more she began to take after her mother's verbal and emotional antics. It got to where they were always condescending and mocked anything I had to say... sooooo... I stopped talking. Yep. Stopped reminding them to get the oil changed, never mentioned changing the furnace filter, I ceased doing yard work... the works. Honestly, it was like the world began to fall apart that year. We were toxic for each other. But I loved her. Loved her daughter too. But you know... things are what they are.

 

[Christopher0121]

So every Christian supposedly has at least one toxic male trait since not accepting homosexuality is considered as discrimination. That shouldn't even be in that list.

Remember, this is according to those "highly qualified therapists" who typically agree that there are over a dozen genders. lol

 

[Christopher0121]

You and I have a great deal in common, brother. At family gatherings on my father's side, I tend to sit by myself and only talk of trivialities, because my relatives on that side tend to gravitate to the leftish side of the spectrum and are predominantly woke liberals. So I keep my mouth shut and stay out of the way. At family gatherings on my mother's side of the family, I'm usually mixed in with the Vietnam veterans, where we can laugh and joke around with each other and not offend anybody else with our twisted sense of humor.

Man, don't I know how that feels. lol

Funny how people think you can just "turn it off". That opinion clearly comes from a position of female privilege. Few women have seen our world. One can't simply "turn it off". I'm just trying to learn to live with it.

 

[Christopher0121]

I guess I'm guilty of being a woman in a man's world. I have always been the head of the household because my x was a binge alcoholic and never held a job longer than a year.

In all honesty, I can image it must be hard to be a woman in a man's world. But try to remember... we men were born into this world like you were. We're just trying to survive in the world left by our fathers. Yet we're hated like its all our fault. lol

In reality... we're all in this together.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

[QUOTE="Aquila0121, post: 76661662, .

My daughter (step) had to be schooled when play fighting her brother (my biological son) to pull her punches. Is it just my daughter...? Or are other young ladies oblivious to how boys pull punches when wrestling around with one another? I mean she was just beating the tar out of him and laughing. She even knocked a couple of his friends to the ground. LOL I had to pull her aside and explain what "pulling punches" means and that boys NEVER use full strength then play fighting in order to ensure we don't hurt ourselves or our friends. She seemed like that never occurred to her. LOL Funny thing is... no one ever had to pull me and my friends aside and tell us to play fight. It was instinctive in our play.
[/QUOTE]

This reminds me of when I was into martial arts and had to spar a girl at my school. She was a brown belt and I never fought girls before. In fact, I was raised that hitting a girl regardless for the reason was never allowed.

Anyway, she came at me with full punches(to the body) and kicks. I didn't know what to do. I was just a white belt and probably looked silly as she kicked me around.

Anyway, in a MA chat room we had at work, a 10 Degree Dan, told me not to take ch**t from her.
Next time, sting her once. Your instructor will give you a warning, but afterwards she'll show some respect. So, next time, the same woman and I followed his advice. It went just as he said. She showed respect and I also was able to deflect her punches and kicks. I never had to spar a female again.

 

[Sketcher]

Well, here's a list of traits associated with toxic masculinity from an organisation which works with young men with addiction issues etc (the whole page is worth a read).

• Unconditional physical toughness
• Physical aggression, fear of emotions
• Discrimination against people that aren't heterosexual
• Hyper independence
• Sexual aggression or violence
• Anti-feminist behavior

Sounds like leftist toxicity informed that list.

 

[Christopher0121]

Now me, I have a very similar background to Aquila0121: I was a combat engineer in the Air Force for six years; saw some stuff, had friends killed, came out with scars all over my body and little bits of junk embedded in various areas that they couldn't remove; then as I said, worked in the LE area for years, dealing with just about everything you could possibly imagine. And, what they say is true: whatever doesn't kill you gives you a sardonic sense of humor and a set of unhealthy coping skills, LOL.

I saw a plane cash at an air show once and my first impulse was to laugh and roll my eyes at the pilot for being stupid. Everyone was still in shock. And I'm actually wondering if his body was... well... I don't want to be too graphic. But you've probably seen things like what I'm talking about.

1. Unconditional physical toughness. If we’re talking about men’s view of themselves then I disagree as some men want to be physically strong there’s nothing wrong with this. Many women want to lose weight and many men want to be unconditionally physically strong and emotionally. Men throughout history have wanted to be strong regardless if it was for hunting, building or attracting a mate. Biblical strength like Samson and Noah. Even Jesus had to carry his cross which took lots of physical strength.

2. Physical aggression/ fear of emotions. As far as aggression goes that’s just normal as men have testosterone that naturally makes men more aggressive. But men have to learn to channel this aggression to healthy outlets, not deny that it’s not natural for males.

Testosterone and Aggressive Behavior in Man

Fear of emotions. Yes I fully agree men should be able to show emotions as we’re human. But one of the reasons is especially in relationships those emotions we opened up about will later be used against us (as women often times especially in divorce weaponize those emotions). So we bottle them up. But yes men are also told by other men to never show emotions as it’s weak. So men are told by men and used against us by women, so we don’t show emotion as much as women do.

watch this video of who men go to:

Rachel on TikTok

3. Discrimination against homosexuals. Discrimination against any group of people is toxic and wrong. Now as Christians we can say it’s sinful and not promote this as healthy. But we shouldn’t bully or attack those who view relationships differently. Our worldview shouldn’t be forced on others.

4. Hyper independence. Both men and women struggle with this one. The notion men use “I am strong, I don’t need anyone “ or women “I am a strong independent woman I don’t need men” are both toxic views. As human beings we’re meant to be social and have healthy relationships (not just romantic ones) with the opposite sex.

5. sexual aggression and violence. Some sexual aggression if both partners agree to it and enjoy it is fine. But abuse is never alright.

6. Anti-feminist behavior. Women shouldn’t be treated any differently then men are treated fully agree. But some under the umbrella of feminism like abortion and having majority of custody of children shouldn’t be something that men should be forced to agree with. Today feminism is you’re with us or against us, today lots of men would be considered anti-feminist.

I think we all support women living as partners with all the same rights and privileges that men enjoy. We’re all human and nobody should be discriminated against because of sex.

My ex went ballistic on me after coming home from a business trip because she felt I wasn't as productive as I she felt I should have been. She broke a broom over my arm, through a few plates at me, and even broke a dog bowl over the side of my head... I swatted at her in self defense, open handed, as she approached me and got in my space before hitting me.

Well, the police were called.

There I was clothing torn up, bleeding like a stuck pig from my lip, my head, and my arms...and most of my things were destroyed and scattered on the lawn and front porch. She said I slapped her. Guess who went to jail?

I spent three days in jail. She dropped the charges and actually apologized to me. She told me she didn't want me arrested, she just wanted the cops to "teach me a lesson". A week later on the weekend I packed up my things and left after confirming she was at work. I had to position my things carefully because if she realized I was staging my things to pack up and move out she'd probably have attacked me.

That relationship was TOXIC. I lost count of how many times she hit me, broke my things, threatened me, etc. I lashed out ONCE and deserved to be taught a less in her eyes.

Never again. I'm 46 and I have NO PLANS to ever have another relationship. It's been over a year now. My finances are bank, my car is purring like a kitten, and my home is peaceful. I still see my son on visitations. In fact, it was my ex-wife who helped me with a place to stay by putting me up at the Marriot for almost two months. She knew me for 17 years and knows my MO doesn't include violence unless I'm provoked. And my son witnessed the insanity and watched me get arrested after witnessing her attacking me. He's only 15 years old and he's already showing signs of extreme caution with women. And I applaud him. He has to be on his guard because many women will destroy any man they turn on with impunity no matter how devoted, faithful, or loving he's been or how many years he's invested in the relationship.

Marriage and relationships... If it were a business deal I'd have to argue it is fool hardy and isn't lucrative. The liabilities outweigh the benefits.

P.S.
I almost lost a 19 year career with the city over her wanting to "teach me a lesson" game. Nope. Not worth it.