Toxic Masculinity Vs Toxic Femininity

[Landon Caeli]

In the case of that list, the "beholder" is a group of highly qualified therapists working with young men with serious issues, so I'd say that gives it some weight.

Is some of this subjective? Sure. But does that mean we should entirely dismiss it as a social and cultural phenomenon? I'm not so sure. I look at that list and I see real and serious social issues which deserve to be tackled.

I agree, these things are indeed toxic masculinity. Or Machismo, in Latin America.

But I believe there is such thing as toxic femininity too.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I think toxic femininity should be a term to describe when a woman uses physical appeal to take advantage of men. Or at least attempts to.

I've seen this behavior before, and it's entirely toxic by it's own deceitful nature.

 

[Paidiske]

My personal take on toxic femininity is that it's often the sins of the relatively powerless; dishonesty, manipulation, passive aggression and so on. The indirect toxic behaviours resorted to by those who don't have the direct means to impose their wills on others.

 

[Landon Caeli]

My personal take on toxic femininity is that it's often the sins of the relatively powerless; dishonesty, manipulation, passive aggression and so on. The indirect toxic behaviours resorted to by those who don't have the direct means to impose their wills on others.

One wouldn't think so, had they not been the one being taken advantage of. But that's just it -women don't typically get to experience this type of abuse as the victim.

Mental abuse can be just as damaging, or even more damaging than physical abuse in the long run. And it's always the nice guys who get suckered, and taken advantage of the worst.

 

[Paidiske]

One wouldn't think so, had they been the one being taken advantage of. But that's just it -women don't typically get to experience this type of abuse as the victim.

Mental abuse can be just as damaging, or even more damaging than physical abuse in the long run. And it's always the nice guys who get suckered.

I am not saying this behaviour is not damaging! I listed dishonesty and manipulation (which agreed with your prior post), and I think these are deeply damaging behaviours. They are indeed toxic.

My point was that rather than, say, simply physically intimidate someone into complying (the typical toxic masculine behaviour) a woman is more likely to lie and manipulate someone, and that this form of toxic behaviour is resorted to by someone who doesn't have the overt power to do the first.

They're both toxic, but they reflect different sides of a gendered power dynamic in the tactics chosen.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I am not saying this behaviour is not damaging! I listed dishonesty and manipulation (which agreed with your prior post), and I think these are deeply damaging behaviours. They are indeed toxic.

My point was that rather than, say, simply physically intimidate someone into complying (the typical toxic masculine behaviour) a woman is more likely to lie and manipulate someone, and that this form of toxic behaviour is resorted to by someone who doesn't have the overt power to do the first.

They're both toxic, but they reflect different sides of a gendered power dynamic in the tactics chosen.

Oh sorry about that, I thought you were suggesting that it's less severe than toxic masculinity because it was being perpetrated by those with less overall power. That's my mistake, Paidiske.

 

[Margot Lugo]

My 10 year old daughter has done that in the past too. I see it more as poor manors than "toxic masculinity".

But also, I see it as a bad stereotype when women assume this to be typical man-type behavior.. Clearly it's not.

Landon, it was meant as a joke. Thus the (JK) after my post. This is an acronym for, "Just Kidding." Clearly, I need to work on my material. LOL! Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Landon, it was meant as a joke. Thus the (JK) after my post. This is an acronym for, "Just Kidding." Clearly, I need to work on my material. LOL! Thanks for your thoughts.

Sorry, I'm kind of on the prowl right now. My wife and 4 daughters in real life, kind of have a little disagreement going on with me, the only male in the house.

I might be taking my frustrations out on all women right now, honestly.

 

[Landon Caeli]

It's very, very often that I am sorry. Because it's very, very often I am told that I am in the wrong.

...I'm sure this will blow over, and I'll be back to normal very soon. (Prolly I shouldn't have said something that could be so easily exploited, eh. )

...because it's all in the details. And those details stick like glue.

 

[Skye1300]

Well, here's a list of traits associated with toxic masculinity from an organisation which works with young men with addiction issues etc (the whole page is worth a read).

• Unconditional physical toughness
• Physical aggression, fear of emotions
• Discrimination against people that aren't heterosexual
• Hyper independence
• Sexual aggression or violence
• Anti-feminist behavior

So every Christian supposedly has at least one toxic male trait since not accepting homosexuality is considered as discrimination. That shouldn't even be in that list.

 

[Paidiske]

So every Christian supposedly has at least one toxic male trait since not accepting homosexuality is considered as discrimination. That shouldn't even be in that list.

Well, I disagree that having a Christian sexual ethic requires discriminating against non-heterosexual people. There's no reason to treat people badly in, say, school or the workplace or wider society because of their sexuality.

That aside, the point there is I think (taking the list as a whole) is about making a particular type of sexuality - aggressive dominance of women - the benchmark of masculinity, and othering people who don't live up to that stereotype.

 

[Wolseley]

Perhaps the answer to toxic masculinity is the gentleman.

Depending on the situation and/or individual, that can backfire on you, too. I recall an incident when I was in college. I was leaving a building, and I noticed the girl behind me had her arms full of books, so I smiled and graciously held the door for her to walk through. My reward was a spiteful harangue spat in my face about "an independent woman" who "didn't need a man to open doors for her". I simply raised my eyebrows, shrugged, and said, "Okay, open your own friggin' doors, then," and let go of the door. It swung closed in her face and she dropped her books all over the floor, but I figured as a strong, independent woman, she was capable of picking them up by herself.

Now, did my acting that way make me a total jerk? Probably. But her acting the way she did made her a total jerk, too. All she had to do was smile, say "Thank you!", and walk through the door, and all that unpleasantness could have been avoided. But no, she decided to take her load of anti-male vitriol, that she had acquired either by experience or by instruction, and loose it upon me, even though I had never done anything to hurt her other than try to be a gentleman.

It goes both ways. Working in law enforcement for years after I left the military, I adopted a policy of initially treating everyone the same way, respectfully and calmly. Where it went from there was up to whoever I was interacting with.

I'm a rather straight to the point fella. I'm not known for candy coating my words. In fact, I've been told my words cut like a knife. And I've been told on more than one occasion that I'm a toxic person. lol Because when I speak my mind, I typically turn the entire room against me... even those who agree with me like to pull me aside and try to "school" me on how I should have said something "better".

Do I care? Nope. lol

They haven't talked suicides off bridges or had to respond to an officer screaming over the radio because there have been shots fired. They don't give pre-arrival instructions to EMS to a mass casualty event. They haven't served in the military and been shot at. They've not had to do things I've had to do that keep me awake at night. So, frankly I think this whole "toxic" thing is for soy boys. But, that's just me.

I just don't fit in. And honestly... I look around and I'm fine with that. lol

You and I have a great deal in common, brother. At family gatherings on my father's side, I tend to sit by myself and only talk of trivialities, because my relatives on that side tend to gravitate to the leftish side of the spectrum and are predominantly woke liberals. So I keep my mouth shut and stay out of the way. At family gatherings on my mother's side of the family, I'm usually mixed in with the Vietnam veterans, where we can laugh and joke around with each other and not offend anybody else with our twisted sense of humor.

I know I have made some comments on this thread but then I looked up what toxic masculinity and femininity are. It's not what I thought as the OP reference seemed different. Thoughts?

Toxic masculinity
A set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole.

1. "the destructive messages associated with toxic masculinity can lead to men feeling entitled to engage in violence against women"

Toxic Femininity
Refers to the adherence to the gender binary in order to receive conditional value in patriarchal societies. It is a concept that restricts women to being cooperative, passive, sexually submissive, gentle, and deriving their value from physical beauty while being pleasing to men.

I'm not sure who came up with the definitions, but while the first one certainly sounds like "toxic masculinity", the second one sounds like feminist psychobabble. "Toxic femininity", in my estimation, would better be described as the vindictive ex-wife who wants to punish her former husband rather than simply separate from him; the obnoxious "Karen" who demands special treatment and treats everyone around her like dirt and makes everyone's life miserable; or the shrewish mamma bear who flies into a shrieking rage if her little darlings are diminished or threatened in any way, be it real or imagined. Or perhaps even more pertinent would be the aggressive, arrogant, cold, manipulative lady-lawyer type, the ones with a chip on their shoulder about being "a woman in a man's world", who get off on power trips and in subjugating or overseeing male counterparts.

Well, here's a list of traits associated with toxic masculinity from an organisation which works with young men with addiction issues etc (the whole page is worth a read).

• Unconditional physical toughness
• Physical aggression, fear of emotions
• Discrimination against people that aren't heterosexual
• Hyper independence
• Sexual aggression or violence
• Anti-feminist behavior

Well, speaking as a six-year military veteran who also has about twenty more years in law enforcement experience on the street, those are pretty common traits. In certain types of work, you need to be physically tough. You're not going to make a twenty-mile forced march with 75 pounds of clothing, ammo, water, gear, and weapons if you're not physically tough. And, think about it: if you are a woman who's being accosted by the denizens of a biker bar, say, would you rather have a cop show up who's physically tough, or a cop who's your average 98-pound guy with skinny jeans and a man-bun who would lisp about anger management issues?

Physical aggression? Depends on the situation. Aggression is like trigger control: you never take a shot at something you cannot clearly identify, and you never get aggressive with anyone who does not present a clear and obvious threat to your well-being or the well-being of those you are charged with protecting.

Fear of emotions? Well, that's trained into you. In a combat situation, you don't have time for emotions---taking the time for emotions will get you killed, or the members of your team killed. And, unfortunately, once you're no longer in combat, you can't simply shut that off. Rather than it being a case of a crude, calloused guy who chooses to be a jerk, it's a case of PTSD re-wiring the mechanisms of the brain, and that re-wiring is permanent.

Discrimination against homosexuals. Well, if refusing to grant them all manner of special privileges simply because of their sexual orientation (often at the expense of others) means discrimination, then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

Hyper independence. Again: trained into you. In combat, you must depend on yourself. If you can't, you won't last long. And again: once acquired, this is a tendency that cannot be blithely jettisoned.

Sexual aggression or violence. There is never any excuse for either.

Anti-feminist behavior. If feminism means granting women equal pay, privileges, etc., to men, then I have nothing against feminists. If feminism means the anti-male, spiteful harpies who snarl that "women need men like a fish needs a bicycle", then yes, I am anti-feminist.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Depending on the situation and/or individual, that can backfire on you, too. I recall an incident when I was in college. I was leaving a building, and I noticed the girl behind me had her arms full of books, so I smiled and graciously held the door for her to walk through. My reward was a spiteful harangue about "an independent woman" who "didn't need a man to open doors for her", spat in my face. I simply raised my eyebrows, shrugged, and said, "Okay, open your own friggin' doors, then," and let go of the door. It swung closed in her face and she dropped her books all over the floor, but I figured as a strong, independent woman, she was capable of picking them up by herself.

Now, did my acting that way make me a total jerk? Probably. But her acting the way she did made her a total jerk, too. All she had to do was smile, say "Thank you!", and walk through the door, and all that unpleasantness could have been avoided. But no, she decided to take her load of anti-male vitriol that she had acquired either by experience or by instruction and loose it upon me, even though I had never done anything to hurt her other than try to be a gentleman.

It goes both ways. Working in law enforcement for years after I left the military, I adopted a policy of initially treating everyone the same way, respectfully and calmly. Where it went from there was up to whoever I was interacting with.



You and I have a great deal in common, brother. At family gatherings on my father's side, I tend to sit by myself and only talk of trivialities, because my relatives on that side tend to gravitate to the leftish side of the spectrum and are predominantly woke liberals. So I keep my mouth shut and stay out of the way. At family gatherings on my mother's side of the family, I'm usually mixed in with Vietnam veterans, where we can laugh and joke around with each other and not offend anybody else with our twisted sense of humor.



I'm not sure who came up with the definitions, but while the first one certainly sounds like "toxic masculinity", the second one sounds like feminist psychobabble. "Toxic femininity", in my estimation, would better be described as the vindictive ex-wife who wants to punish her former husband rather than simply separate from him; the obnoxious "Karen" who demands special treatment and treats everyone around her like dirt and makes everyone's life miserable; or the shrewish mamma bear who flies into a shrieking rage if her little darlings are diminished or threatened in any way, be it real or imagined. Or perhaps even more pertinent would be the aggressive, arrogant, cold, manipulative lady-lawyer type, the ones with a chip on their shoulder about being "a woman in a man's world", who get off on power trips and in subjugating or overseeing male counterparts.



Well, speaking as a six-year military veteran who also has about twenty more years in law enforcement experience on the street, those are pretty common traits. In certain types of work, you need to be physically tough. You're not going to make a twenty-mile forced march with 75 pounds of clothing, ammo, water, gear, and weapons if you're not physically tough. And, think about it: if you are a woman who's being accosted by the denizens of a biker bar, say, would you rather have a cop show up who's physically tough, or a cop who's your average 98-pound guy with skinny jeans and a man-bun who would lisp about anger management issues?

Physical aggression? Depends on the situation. Aggression is like trigger control: you never take a shot at something you cannot clearly identify, and you never get aggressive with anyone who does not present a clear and obvious threat to your well-being or the well-being of those you are charged with protecting.

Fear of emotions? Well, that's trained into you. In a combat situation, you don't have time for emotions---taking the time for emotions will get you killed, or the members of your team killed. And, unfortunately, once you're no longer in combat, you can't simply shut that off. Rather than it being a case of a crude, calloused guy who chooses to be a jerk, it's a case of PTSD re-wiring the mechanisms of the brain, and that re-wiring is permanent.

Discrimination against homosexuals. Well, if refusing to grant them all manner of special privileges simply because of their sexual orientation (often at the expense of others) means discrimination, then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

Hyper independence. Again: trained into you. In combat, you must depend on yourself. If you can't, you won't last long. And again: once acquired, this is a tendency that cannot be blithely jettisoned.

Sexual aggression or violence. There is never any excuse for either.

Anti-feminist behavior. If feminism means granting women equal pay, privileges, etc., to men, then I have nothing against feminists. If feminism means the anti-male, spiteful harpies who snarl that "women need men like a fish needs a bicycle", then yes, I am anti-feminist.

Ok thanks, but I am still waiting for the definition

 

[Maria Billingsley]

.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Depending on the situation and/or individual, that can backfire on you, too. I recall an incident when I was in college. I was leaving a building, and I noticed the girl behind me had her arms full of books, so I smiled and graciously held the door for her to walk through. My reward was a spiteful harangue about "an independent woman" who "didn't need a man to open doors for her", spat in my face. I simply raised my eyebrows, shrugged, and said, "Okay, open your own friggin' doors, then," and let go of the door. It swung closed in her face and she dropped her books all over the floor, but I figured as a strong, independent woman, she was capable of picking them up by herself.

Now, did my acting that way make me a total jerk? Probably. But her acting the way she did made her a total jerk, too. All she had to do was smile, say "Thank you!", and walk through the door, and all that unpleasantness could have been avoided. But no, she decided to take her load of anti-male vitriol that she had acquired either by experience or by instruction and loose it upon me, even though I had never done anything to hurt her other than try to be a gentleman.

It goes both ways. Working in law enforcement for years after I left the military, I adopted a policy of initially treating everyone the same way, respectfully and calmly. Where it went from there was up to whoever I was interacting with.



You and I have a great deal in common, brother. At family gatherings on my father's side, I tend to sit by myself and only talk of trivialities, because my relatives on that side tend to gravitate to the leftish side of the spectrum and are predominantly woke liberals. So I keep my mouth shut and stay out of the way. At family gatherings on my mother's side of the family, I'm usually mixed in with Vietnam veterans, where we can laugh and joke around with each other and not offend anybody else with our twisted sense of humor.



I'm not sure who came up with the definitions, but while the first one certainly sounds like "toxic masculinity", the second one sounds like feminist psychobabble. "Toxic femininity", in my estimation, would better be described as the vindictive ex-wife who wants to punish her former husband rather than simply separate from him; the obnoxious "Karen" who demands special treatment and treats everyone around her like dirt and makes everyone's life miserable; or the shrewish mamma bear who flies into a shrieking rage if her little darlings are diminished or threatened in any way, be it real or imagined. Or perhaps even more pertinent would be the aggressive, arrogant, cold, manipulative lady-lawyer type, the ones with a chip on their shoulder about being "a woman in a man's world", who get off on power trips and in subjugating or overseeing male counterparts.



Well, speaking as a six-year military veteran who also has about twenty more years in law enforcement experience on the street, those are pretty common traits. In certain types of work, you need to be physically tough. You're not going to make a twenty-mile forced march with 75 pounds of clothing, ammo, water, gear, and weapons if you're not physically tough. And, think about it: if you are a woman who's being accosted by the denizens of a biker bar, say, would you rather have a cop show up who's physically tough, or a cop who's your average 98-pound guy with skinny jeans and a man-bun who would lisp about anger management issues?

Physical aggression? Depends on the situation. Aggression is like trigger control: you never take a shot at something you cannot clearly identify, and you never get aggressive with anyone who does not present a clear and obvious threat to your well-being or the well-being of those you are charged with protecting.

Fear of emotions? Well, that's trained into you. In a combat situation, you don't have time for emotions---taking the time for emotions will get you killed, or the members of your team killed. And, unfortunately, once you're no longer in combat, you can't simply shut that off. Rather than it being a case of a crude, calloused guy who chooses to be a jerk, it's a case of PTSD re-wiring the mechanisms of the brain, and that re-wiring is permanent.

Discrimination against homosexuals. Well, if refusing to grant them all manner of special privileges simply because of their sexual orientation (often at the expense of others) means discrimination, then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

Hyper independence. Again: trained into you. In combat, you must depend on yourself. If you can't, you won't last long. And again: once acquired, this is a tendency that cannot be blithely jettisoned.

Sexual aggression or violence. There is never any excuse for either.

Anti-feminist behavior. If feminism means granting women equal pay, privileges, etc., to men, then I have nothing against feminists. If feminism means the anti-male, spiteful harpies who snarl that "women need men like a fish needs a bicycle", then yes, I am anti-feminist.

Wow Wolsley, your description sure sounds horrifying:
"I'm not sure who came up with the definitions, but while the first one certainly sounds like "toxic masculinity", the second one sounds like feminist psychobabble. "Toxic femininity", in my estimation, would better be described as the vindictive ex-wife who wants to punish her former husband rather than simply separate from him; the obnoxious "Karen" who demands special treatment and treats everyone around her like dirt and makes everyone's life miserable; or the shrewish mamma bear who flies into a shrieking rage if her little darlings are diminished or threatened in any way, be it real or imagined. Or perhaps even more pertinent would be the aggressive, arrogant, cold, manipulative lady-lawyer type, the ones with a chip on their shoulder about being "a woman in a man's world", who get off on power trips and in subjugating or overseeing male counterparts."

 

[Wolseley]

Wow Wolsley, your description sure sounds horrifying.

Doesn't it, though?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Doesn't it, though?

I guess I'm guilty of being a woman in a man's world. I have always been the head of the household because my x was a binge alcoholic and never held a job longer than a year.

 

[Wolseley]

I guess I'm guilty of being a woman in a man's world. I have always been the head of the household because my x was a binge alcoholic and never held a job longer than a year.

Everybody's situation is different, and everybody is the product of their experience. My sister was married to an abusive alcoholic for 18 years. I actually liked the guy---he had a dry, wry sense of humor and could be outrageously funny, but his disease was acute and when he was drinking it was like Mr. Hyde to his sober Dr. Jekyll.

Now me, I have a very similar background to Aquila0121: I was a combat engineer in the Air Force for six years; saw some stuff, had friends killed, came out with scars all over my body and little bits of junk embedded in various areas that they couldn't remove; then as I said, worked in the LE area for years, dealing with just about everything you could possibly imagine. And, what they say is true: whatever doesn't kill you gives you a sardonic sense of humor and a set of unhealthy coping skills, LOL.

 

[RDKirk]

Wow Wolsley, your description sure sounds horrifying:
"I'm not sure who came up with the definitions, but while the first one certainly sounds like "toxic masculinity", the second one sounds like feminist psychobabble. "Toxic femininity", in my estimation, would better be described as the vindictive ex-wife who wants to punish her former husband rather than simply separate from him; the obnoxious "Karen" who demands special treatment and treats everyone around her like dirt and makes everyone's life miserable; or the shrewish mamma bear who flies into a shrieking rage if her little darlings are diminished or threatened in any way, be it real or imagined. Or perhaps even more pertinent would be the aggressive, arrogant, cold, manipulative lady-lawyer type, the ones with a chip on their shoulder about being "a woman in a man's world", who get off on power trips and in subjugating or overseeing male counterparts."

Add to that: Unrestricted "monkey-branching" and unrestricted hypergamy. Both of those tendencies had social restrictions--imposed by the women of those societies--that are unrestricted in American social culture today.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The facts of life are that women choose men for mating, raising potential children and protection.

Women generally choose a mate who is at least equivalent to them or higher and it's
more often than not, men who are higher in the hierarchal ladder who are chosen. It's rare that a
woman marries down when seeking a mate. Mating sites like Tinder, show this to be the case.

It's different for young girls in their young teens who tend to be drawn toward the "bad boys."
However, as most women mature, they seek a good mate.

Since the beginning of the human race, men have had to present themselves as being an attractive mate by making themselves financially stable, having confidence, social status and strength.

The current trend for is the cynicism of the so-called patriarchal oppressive male. This was the result of the feminization of society and have no doubt about it, we're in trouble as a result.

If you doubt me, watch the video when Jordan Peterson interviews Dr Warren Farrell, on his
book, "The Boy Crisis."

As Dr Farrell says in the video, when he was asked by the Obama administration to be on the gender commission, he thought that it would be about both genders. Instead, it was only one females and how to promote and benefit women alone.

Boys without meaning life, will become violent and we're seeing that today.