Toxic Masculinity Vs Toxic Femininity

[Paidiske]

So is the biblical Christian view of marriage abuse?

Some people's take on a "biblical" view is definitely abusive.

For example, there's a blog I keep an eye on by a guy who advocates (amongst other things) that a husband use corporal punishment to make his wife obey him. He says it's Biblical, but it's pretty clearly abusive.

You focus lots on toxic masculinity, yet not on toxic femininity.

I'm mostly responding to posts on this thread denying the reality of toxic masculinity. I don't deny the reality of toxic femininity.

Actually, DR Jordan Peterson presents data and facts not opinion.

I gave you links including peer-reviewed journal publications and other quality sources (which you dismissed), and you referred me to a Youtuber and podcaster whose business model basically relies on clickbait.

If his claims are so reputable, then you should be able to back them up from reputable sources.

The last part of your post on him being controversial is only according to people who can't refute what he presents, so they just attack him.

Whether you agree with him or not, it seems pretty clear to me that he is talented at creating controversial soundbites which will drive traffic to his channel.

 

[Wolseley]

I think the only way to end all these problems is to genetically-engineer human beings so they are not only asexual, but vegetable.

That way, not only do we no longer have all the male/female battles, we also don't have problems about sexual relations.

Human beings won't be engaging in sex. They'll just stand outside when a light breeze blows, and wait for pollen.

 

[Christopher0121]

I don't even think most women hate men, it's they are tired of being victims of predatory men.

Women were often victims of rape and dominance in times of war or invasion. Even in modern times, I see videos of women being kicked down the stairs in subways, beaten in the street, pushed in front of trains, by men.

Men have a biological advantage of strength and agility to protect themselves. Women do not.

The very harm that men feel in terms of emotional repression and feeling unloved, and not having their traumas taken seriously, was done to them by the societal standards instituted by other men.

I've found in my experience that males who do not have strong male role models, personal inner confidence with being male, and have their male needs met, are far more aggressive to both other males and women in particular. Why? They have a subconscious identity to prove.

And it all starts with the father figure.

Fathers Matter.

 

[Christopher0121]

I rolled my eyes so hard my vision hasn't recovered yet. No, women don't choose men for protection.

Soooo... the next time something goes bump in the night, maybe you guys should check it out. Check this, ewww... kill that... c'mon. If you don't need a protector... shut up and protect yourselves. lol

But there's another side to this. Call it evolution or design, there is an instinctual male impulse to protect our mates and our children. And to protect women in general in a hairy situation. For example, the old saying, "women and children first". Are you saying that is outdated and we should say, "Good luck tuts!", and leave ya sit? lol

Just this simply statement above is violence against the traditional male. You might not understand why or how, but I assure you more men read this and felt repulsed than enlightened.

Sadly, we men hear this all the time. However, when things get dangerous women call on us to risk life and limb to face the danger. I've yet to wake up next to a woman saying, "I heard something in the kitchen, I'm going to check it out." lol

And if you argue that the potential threat might be bigger and stronger than you and so it is perfectly logical to ask your often larger and stronger partner to check it out... you're admitting that yes... women DO choose men for protection when danger arises. You can't have it both ways.

We choose men as life partners, who will share with us through life's ups and downs and be willing to work as a team through life's challenges.

I think more women should choose a room mate. Or... get a dog before they even think about bringing a man into their lives. Why? Because a man is more than a "buddy". Males have physical needs, emotional needs, spiritual needs, and psychological needs most women don't have a clue about. And sadly they aren't even interested in understanding. And when we bring these up... we're the "toxic" ones. We're not puppies or buddies. We're men. And if you don't know what that two word statement means... you're proving my point.

 

[Christopher0121]

1. Little more then 85% of our military are men and 87.5% of law enforcement that protect women are men. So yes men protect women more then women protect themselves. In relationships majority of women statistically will pick a man that is taller then themselves, why? Because women want a strong and tall man that can protect them. (If you want sources just ask, but it’s been well documented throughout history).

So very true. However, I don't know if women always "consciously" choose a man who's taller for protection. I think it is more a subconscious instinct. It could also serve a natural purpose in that a stronger, taller, male will ideally produce stronger and healthier offspring. Call it evolution or design, I don't think women realize their instincts are doing precisely what they are saying they aren't doing. lol

2. creating problems for themselves I agree. But offending others I wouldn’t care as I can’t please everyone.

Amen, since when has anyone been worried about offending me???? LOL In my world, no one cares about offending me... but they get butthurt when I speak my mind. And so, like you said, I can't please everyone. So, I normally tell 'em, "Suck it up buttercup." lol

3. You do know there are lots of Christians out there in traditional marriage that are biblical and do not abuse their spouse, right? My parents, grandparents and in my marriage I never abused my spouse. Domestic violence happens regardless of what type of marriage you’re in and statistically it hasn’t decreased due to the rise of other forms of partnerships/marriages.

There's more domestic violence among more liberal cohabitating relationships than traditional marriages. Working with law enforcement and having numerous domestic violence calls... most of the time its a "boyfriend". Sure, you get the occasional deadbeat abusive husband... but its "boyfriends" 3 to one.

And so, I believe a woman is 75% safer in a traditional marriage than otherwise.

 

[Christopher0121]

When you accuse me of exemplifying toxic femininity, it is. Frankly that probably breaks CF's flaming rules.



No evidence?

Women and Illiteracy: The Interplay of Gender Subordination and Poverty on JSTOR

Why the majority of the world’s poor are women | Oxfam International

The gender gap in employment: What's holding women back?

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1440783318791755

The Patriarchal Barrier to Women in Politics

Is it possible that you don't know you're being offensive to males??? I've taken your offensive remarks as unintentional and just uninformed. Sure, people can cite studies and articles supporting any given opinion. Therefore, ultimately these conversations are you and others. It's more about personal experience than what some dingbat doctor wrote... because I can find a dingbat doctor of my own who wrote articles supporting my understanding.

I remember talking with a woman I was seeing once while shopping and she clearly was upset about something and I didn't have a clue what it was. When we got into the truck I asked her what was wrong, she explained how when I spoke of her as a "girl" it was offensive. I was shocked. I meant no offense. Apparently to her, the term "girl" was insulting. She preferred "woman". In hind sight, I can see why she might have been offended. I don't like being called a "boy". However, I had always spoke of females as "girls". I meant no offense. So, I retrained myself to only use the term "girl" when speaking about a minor female.

My point is... people can be offensive without even knowing it. I don't think you're a toxic female. I think you just don't know much about men. lol

 

[Christopher0121]

You focus lots on toxic masculinity, yet not on toxic femininity. The fact is today’s society men are the problem yet never look at women as being a problem. Sayings like “happy wife, happy life” is telling men don’t have to be happy to create a happy home. Men are the butt of the jokes in family guy and every comedy on television.

Amen, brother. Could you imagine how outraged women would be if they were painted as being dumb buffoons that always need to be rescued by the mother and children? LOL I stopped watching "Home Improvement" because I just got sick at the stereotype of the buffoon/father. It became highly INSULTING to me. Same with Cheers. I noticed the character "Sam" increasingly became more and more stupid as the series rolled on. It was the male buffoon/father stereotype. You see it all over the place today. And what gets me is... if your wife and kids watch that stuff enough they start overthinking and criticizing everything you do.

If comedy treated women like that... they'd be losing their minds.

 

[Christopher0121]

Some people's take on a "biblical" view is definitely abusive.

For example, there's a blog I keep an eye on by a guy who advocates (amongst other things) that a husband use corporal punishment to make his wife obey him. He says it's Biblical, but it's pretty clearly abusive.

Yeah, I've heard of those corporal punishment loons. But they make up less than 1% of Christian husbands. Most Christian husbands don't believe in using corporal punishment as it relates to a spouse. Many don't even use it with children anymore. Of course, if the woman chooses to stay in such an arrangement... maybe it's well... "desired" on some level. I know it sounds crazy, but there are those types out there.

I'm mostly responding to posts on this thread denying the reality of toxic masculinity. I don't deny the reality of toxic femininity.

I understand. However, I think what you don't realize is how we men have now endured being called "toxic" by women and society at every turn. Please note, these aren't doctors or experts calling us toxic... its people we know and love who are probably misusing the term just to be abusive to us. I was called "toxic" because I like to hunt. You see, "animal lovers" who disdain hunters are framing us as promoting "toxic masculinity". I posted a couple videos of me and my son at the gun range. Turns out what I felt was an incredibly enjoyable, fun, and bonding day with my 15 year old son was "toxic masculinity".

The term is thrown at some of us all the time. I mean, I see toxic masculinity on COPS when drunks wearing "wife-beaters" are getting booked for domestic violence. Hunting and taking your son to the range isn't "toxic". But to increasing numbers on the left... it is. Of course, if I posted a pic of him kissing a boy and championed his desire to be a girl, I'd be hailed as father of the year. lol

 

[Christopher0121]

I think the only way to end all these problems is to genetically-engineer human beings so they are not only asexual, but vegetable.

That way, not only do we no longer have all the male/female battles, we also don't have problems about sexual relations.

Human beings won't be engaging in sex. They'll just stand outside when a light breeze blows, and wait for pollen.

I've thought about that too! lol

I think we need to champion singlehood... especially among males. I'm not saying go full MGTOW, but far too many people are in relationships when they don't even know who they are. I've been single for a while now and I'm always being pressured to date, go out, find someone, try some app, blah, blah, blah. I'm a 46 year old, white, conservative, gun owner, military vet, 911 dispatcher, who is straight and Christian. There isn't any women out there who can appreciate what I bring to the table. And after the past two long term relationships I've had... no sir. My mouth gets dry just thinking about dating again. I'm perfectly happy and content alone. I'm learning my life would have been far better had I realized this years ago. Women just aren't women anymore. And men are unappreciated. I think we need to focus on raising a generation of males who see relationships and marriage as a risky proposition, not the ideal. This means we need to be more open about male sexuality and emotion. Because sadly when the hormones are raging that's when we're more easily convinced we need a woman. It's also often what keeps us tolerating bad female behavior for far longer than we need to. I've tried to teach my son that women are optional. Life can be fulfilling, enjoyable, rewarding, pleasing, and beautiful without them.

Frankly, men do far better single anyway.

 

[Paidiske]

Soooo... the next time something goes bump in the night, maybe you guys should check it out. Check this, ewww... kill that... c'mon. If you don't need a protector... shut up and protect yourselves. lol

I have never - and I mean literally never, despite spending several years working a job with a security element which saw me dealing with potentially violent people (I was the only one on my team over those years who wasn't physically assaulted) - asked for or wanted a guy to "protect" me since I've been an adult.

While I can imagine situations in which I might, they are so rare and unlikely, that they are not the basis on which I would choose a husband.

For example, the old saying, "women and children first". Are you saying that is outdated and we should say, "Good luck tuts!", and leave ya sit? lol

If you're talking about who gets spots on the lifeboats, I don't see any reason why being a woman should automatically mean getting one.

Just this simply statement above is violence against the traditional male.

No, it's not. Deconstructing one idea about masculinity which leads to infantilising and disempowering women is not "violence" against the traditional male.

Is it possible that you don't know you're being offensive to males???

I am not intending to be offensive, but I am not intimidated about pointing out the realities of women's lives. The post in response to which you presented this, presented evidence of poorer educational, employment, economic and social participation outcomes for women. Why should speaking the truth about our lives be offensive?

I think you just don't know much about men. lol

Well, I'm happily married to one, and I competently minister to a church full of them, so... I'm going to say the evidence doesn't stack up to that idea.

I understand. However, I think what you don't realize is how we men have no endured being called "toxic" by women and society at every turn. Please note, these aren't doctors or experts calling us toxic... its people we know and love who are probably misusing the term just to be abusive to us.

That is certainly wrong. But I am going to point out (again) that I am not using the term to refer to particular people, or even to men in general, but to particular cultural ideals and constructs.

 

[Wolseley]

I've thought about that too! lol

I think we need to champion singlehood... especially among males. I'm not saying go full MGTOW, but far too many people are in relationships when they don't even know who they are. I've been single for a while now and I'm always being pressured to date, go out, find someone, try some app, blah, blah, blah. I'm a 46 year old, white, conservative, gun owner, military vet, 911 dispatcher, who is straight and Christian. There isn't any women out there who can appreciate what I bring to the table. And after the past two long term relationships I've had... no sir. My mouth gets dry just thinking about dating again. I'm perfectly happy and content alone. I'm learning my life would have been far better had I realized this years ago. Women just aren't women anymore. And men are unappreciated. I think we need to focus on raising a generation of males who see relationships and marriage as a risky proposition, not the ideal. This means we need to be more open about male sexuality and emotion. Because sadly when the hormones are raging that's when we're more easily convinced we need a woman. It's also often what keeps us tolerating bad female behavior for far longer than we need to. I've tried to teach my son that women are optional. Life can be fulfilling, enjoyable, rewarding, pleasing, and beautiful without them.

Frankly, men do far better single anyway.

View attachment 315410

Maybe this is God's low-key way of reducing overpopulation, LOL!

 

[Skye1300]

I've found in my experience that males who do not have strong male role models, personal inner confidence with being male, and have their male needs met, are far more aggressive to both other males and women in particular. Why? They have a subconscious identity to prove.

And it all starts with the father figure.

Fathers Matter.

Yes, exactly. And too many children grow up in broken homes without a father these days.

 

[Skye1300]

There's more domestic violence among more liberal cohabitating relationships than traditional marriages. Working with law enforcement and having numerous domestic violence calls... most of the time its a "boyfriend". Sure, you get the occasional deadbeat abusive husband... but its "boyfriends" 3 to one.

And so, I believe a woman is 75% safer in a traditional marriage than otherwise.

Amen! The whole system fell apart when people decided it was cool to hook up outside of marriage and just live together rather than getting married. If everyone had stuck to what the Bible says about marriage, things would have been a lot better.

 

[Skye1300]

My point is... people can be offensive without even knowing it. I don't think you're a toxic female. I think you just don't know much about men. lol

Maybe women who have no brothers do that unintentionally. Having mostly brothers I can understand their side as well as my side.

 

[Christopher0121]

I have never - and I mean literally never, despite spending several years working a job with a security element which saw me dealing with potentially violent people (I was the only one on my team over those years who wasn't physically assaulted) - asked for or wanted a guy to "protect" me since I've been an adult.

While I can imagine situations in which I might, they are so rare and unlikely, that they are not the basis on which I would choose a husband.



If you're talking about who gets spots on the lifeboats, I don't see any reason why being a woman should automatically mean getting one.



No, it's not. Deconstructing one idea about masculinity which leads to infantilising and disempowering women is not "violence" against the traditional male.



I am not intending to be offensive, but I am not intimidated about pointing out the realities of women's lives. The post in response to which you presented this, presented evidence of poorer educational, employment, economic and social participation outcomes for women. Why should speaking the truth about our lives be offensive?



Well, I'm happily married to one, and I competently minister to a church full of them, so... I'm going to say the evidence doesn't stack up to that idea.



That is certainly wrong. But I am going to point out (again) that I am not using the term to refer to particular people, or even to men in general, but to particular cultural ideals and constructs.

I know a few female soldiers and lady cops who wear the pants in their families too. Hey, if it works for you great.

I'm just saying the average female will wake her man up to have him go check the noises at night. And you know I'm telling the truth. I'm with you... make women go check those strange noises at night. Women don't need protectors. LOL

 

[Skye1300]

Amen, brother. Could you imagine how outraged women would be if they were painted as being dumb buffoons that always need to be rescued by the mother and children? LOL I stopped watching "Home Improvement" because I just got sick at the stereotype of the buffoon/father. It became highly INSULTING to me. Same with Cheers. I noticed the character "Sam" increasingly became more and more stupid as the series rolled on. It was the male buffoon/father stereotype. You see it all over the place today. And what gets me is... if your wife and kids watch that stuff enough they start overthinking and criticizing everything you do.

If comedy treated women like that... they'd be losing their minds.

I never watched much TV growing up, me and my brothers mostly read books. I watch almost zero TV today.

 

[Christopher0121]

Maybe this is God's low-key way of reducing overpopulation, LOL!

 

[Christopher0121]

I never watched much TV growing up, me and my brothers mostly read books. I watch almost zero TV today.

I barely watch TV today either. From what I gather, we're not missing much.

 

[Wolseley]

I barely watch TV today either. From what I gather, we're not missing much.

I usually watch a couple hours of TV at night with my wife, but it's old stuff---Dragnet, Perry Mason, Starsky and Hutch; shows from the '50s, '60s, and '70s mostly. I get a kick out of looking at the old cars. Tonight we watched an episode of Banacek, and I was pointing out all the 1970s land yachts, as well as that old '39 Packard that George Peppard drove around in.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I'm an 8 year Army veteran. I'm a gun owner. I'm Catholic. I'm straight. I hunt. I fish. I'm a 911 Police & Emergency Dispatcher. I've discovered that everything about me is "toxic" according to our modern culture. lol

But when it hits the fan... we're the ones they call upon to keep the wolves at bay and save the day.

The thing is though, it appears that doing "manly" things, like fixing trucks, being a gun owner, etc etc, is what society is seen as masculine. But if you're not doing these things, it's not masculine?

Back in the day, if a man cried or showed his feelings, it was considered un-manly, so is it considered still un-manly to show your emotions these days?