Toxic Masculinity Vs Toxic Femininity

[Maria Billingsley]

Everyone hears how hard it is to be a woman yet overlook that men also have it hard. Most people in prison are men, most homeless are men, most victims of violent crime are men, most who commit suicide are men, the draft affects only men, workplace deaths, false rape allegations, family court bias, lose custody, lack of male resources for domestic violence, lack of resources for single fathers, who do worse in school and drop out are men. So generally speaking men have it worse in some areas and women have it worse in others. Yet today men are overlooked and masculinity is considered toxic.

I did say join the club.

 

[public hermit]

Honestly, what scares me 100 times worse than Putin on a horse, or masculinity in general, is the authoritative role that a so-called "Karen" takes up. I've seen some pretty bad videos under the title of "Karen's behaving badly", that really take the cake.

It's all a wash for me. I like to watch FailArmy. It's prophetic.

 

[Paidiske]

masculinity is considered toxic.

"Toxic masculinity" is not a phrase which indicates that masculinity is toxic. It describes a particular cultural and ideological take on masculinity, which was given the tag "toxic masculinity" by men observing its negative effects on men.

There is such a thing as healthy masculinity. But in order to talk about that, we need to be able to also identify and talk about its opposite.

I think public hermit is right about toxic humanity. The fact that we can identify gendered aspects of this has a lot to do with the way power imbalances play out across the genders.

 

[RDKirk]

There is such a thing as healthy masculinity. But in order to talk about that, we need to be able to also identify and talk about its opposite.

Do we?

When I was an avid road cyclist, one of the primary lessons I learned about riding on the road was: "When approaching an obstacle in the road, don't focus on the obstacle, focus on the path around the obstacle."

Do we avoid sin better by talking about sin or by talking about righteous living? If we haven't taught how to live righteously, can we live righteously by talking only about sin?

So I disagree: We have to spend more time teaching beneficial masculinity, first and foremost.

But that's not happening.

 

[readywriter]

What are your thoughts on society bashing toxic masculinity yet leave out toxic femininity as today people want to shun only masculinity. This gets shoved on children especially boys. Just like you hear how bad it is to be a misogynist, but yet misandry ideals are alright in today’s society.

By today’s standards many men of the Bible would be considered in the box of “toxic”. Is this alright?

Hello @Krav Maga,

Anything that is toxic is to be avoided, surely: For it is damaging, either physically or psychologically.

Mutual respect is the best atmosphere to live and work in. For both male and female have much to offer. Not only to each other but in conjunction with each other to the rest of society. For male and female are two sides of the same coin. What one lacks the other can provide.

Thank you
In Jesus Name
Chris

 

[Skye1300]

It's not a surprise that there are organizations like Men Going Their Own Way in this society today.

Wow, I never heard of this group.

 

[RDKirk]

Wow, I never heard of this group.

I don't think MGTOW is an organization. It's a movement.

 

[Paidiske]

Do we avoid sin better by talking about sin or by talking about righteous living? If we haven't taught how to live righteously, can we live righteously by talking only about sin?

I take your point, and I agree that we also have to talk about what is good and healthy. But if, for example, we can't talk about domestic violence, about rape, about the many ways "toxic masculinity" plays out, then I think we're at best acting as if we're in denial about a whole lot that is really wrong with out society.

Should we really not talk about things like rape culture, lest it hurt the feelings of some men? Meanwhile, leaving the fact that one in five women is raped over her lifetime unnamed and unchallenged? Where's the justice in that?

 

[RDKirk]

I take your point, and I agree that we also have to talk about what is good and healthy. But if, for example, we can't talk about domestic violence, about rape, about the many ways "toxic masculinity" plays out, then I think we're at best acting as if we're in denial about a whole lot that is really wrong with out society.

Should we really not talk about things like rape culture, lest it hurt the feelings of some men? Meanwhile, leaving the fact that one in five women is raped over her lifetime unnamed and unchallenged? Where's the justice in that?

Teaching a negative is ultimately futile. The reason you tell a cyclist to concentrate on the path around the obstacle rather than to concentrate on the obstacle is because by concentrating on the obstacle, you will run right into it...because they never saw the path around it.

You don't teach a young boy, "Don't rape," You teach a young boy the positive: "Protect women from bad men who rape."

 

[Paidiske]

You don't teach a young boy, "Don't rape," You teach a young boy the positive: "Protect women from bad men who rape."

Ugh, no!

First up, it's not just "bad" men who rape. That kind of myth feeds the problem. I have known, for example, of young men who had sex with women too inebriated to consent, who didn't even realise what they had done was rape, because they didn't think of themselves in that light. They thought rape was something evil men did when they dragged a stranger off a dark street, not what they did with their dates.

We do need to actively teach respect and consent. But we also need to talk about the shadow side of the whole thing. The "Don't be that guy" campaign was shown to be very successful in actually lowering rates of rape, by tackling the issue head on.

 

[RDKirk]

Ugh, no!

First up, it's not just "bad" men who rape. That kind of myth feeds the problem. I have known, for example, of young men who had sex with women too inebriated to consent, who didn't even realise what they had done was rape, because they didn't think of themselves in that light. They thought rape was something evil men did when they dragged a stranger off a dark street, not what they did with their dates.

We do need to actively teach respect and consent. But we also need to talk about the shadow side of the whole thing. The "Don't be that guy" campaign was shown to be very successful in actually lowering rates of rape, by tackling the issue head on.

No, you don't teach that only bad men rape--sorry, but your outlook is feminine. You teach a man to be good, and reflect that the opposite of what is good is bad.

Right now, boys are not being taught to be good men, only to not be bad men. But you can't effectively teach "not to be," you must teach "be."

 

[Sparagmos]

I hate toxic femininity where women want to act like men or pretend like they don't need a man. I also hate how society is making boys and men too soft. I can't stand a soft man. That's part of the attraction for me towards men, their masculinity. Being like a real man. Not so soft and feminine like. I'm not talking about crying, real men can cry, I mean other stuff. I want to shout to the soft ones "be a man!" LOL
I hate when women try to say we can do everything a man can. No we can't, and we're not supposed to.
It's very toxic to try to force women to be something God did not make us to be and toxic to try to make men to be something God did not make them to be.

Modern society wants to eliminate everything unique about each gender and make everyone to be some kind of androgynous genderless being. Yuk.

The Poe is strong in this one.

 

[Sparagmos]

Everyone hears how hard it is to be a woman yet overlook that men also have it hard. Most people in prison are men, most homeless are men, most victims of violent crime are men, most who commit suicide are men, the draft affects only men, workplace deaths, false rape allegations, family court bias, lose custody, lack of male resources for domestic violence, lack of resources for single fathers, who do worse in school and drop out are men. So generally speaking men have it worse in some areas and women have it worse in others. Yet today men are overlooked and masculinity is considered toxic.

And toxic masculinity is the cause for much of that. Take positive masculine traits like physical strength and courage, pervert them and you have violent crime perpetrated by men. That’s toxic masculinity. Expecting all men to fight in wars whether or not they consent because "that’s what men do" - toxic masculinity. The belief that men can’t parent as well as women and must work the hardest and make money to have value in society - toxic masculinity. I think it’s better to say that these negative tropes and expectations are toxic masculinity than to say that they are authentic masculinity.

 

[Paidiske]

sorry, but your outlook is feminine.

Perhaps, but so what? Does that mean it's not a valid contribution to a discussion about toxic ideas about gender? Trying to shut women out of discussions about things like rape is ridiculous.

You teach a man to be good, and reflect that the opposite of what is good is bad.

Right now, boys are not being taught to be good men, only to not be bad men. But you can't effectively teach "not to be," you must teach "be."

You need both. As I pointed out, after the "don't be that guy" campaign, reports of rape dropped by 10%. That's a fantastic result! But they didn't get there by refusing to name the problem.

But saying "protect women from bad men" isn't actually all that great a message, if you want to teach healthy dynamics between the sexes. It still places women in a position of passivity and dependence, rather than mutuality and respect.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Ugh, no!

First up, it's not just "bad" men who rape. That kind of myth feeds the problem. I have known, for example, of young men who had sex with women too inebriated to consent, who didn't even realise what they had done was rape, because they didn't think of themselves in that light. They thought rape was something evil men did when they dragged a stranger off a dark street, not what they did with their dates.

We do need to actively teach respect and consent. But we also need to talk about the shadow side of the whole thing. The "Don't be that guy" campaign was shown to be very successful in actually lowering rates of rape, by tackling the issue head on.

If I may, with all due respect ,enibration is no excuse. These boys have not lived under a rock. They know exactly what they are doing in hopes of getting away with it. Having sex with a girl who has passed out is wrong and "no" does not mean "yes". These boys may not be evil but they are knowingly committing an evil act. I don't see the difference.
Blessings.

 

[Paidiske]

If I may, with all due respect ,enibration is no excuse.

I agree!

These boys may not be evil but they are knowingly committing an evil act. I don't see the difference.

The point I was making was that framing rape as something "bad men" do means that ordinary guys don't see themselves as rapists, even when they are.

This TED talk might be hard listening (it discusses rape) but is one of the most powerful accounts of that I've come across. Our story of rape and reconciliation

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I agree!



The point I was making was that framing rape as something "bad men" do means that ordinary guys don't see themselves as rapists, even when they are.

This TED talk might be hard listening (it discusses rape) but is one of the most powerful accounts of that I've come across. Our story of rape and reconciliation

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Christopher0121]

It's not a surprise that there are organizations like Men Going Their Own Way in this society today. I personally don't think that avoidance of women is the answer, but if you read through their platform, they do have a lot of pertinent points; men are considered predatory. Men do get the worst end in divorce settlements. Men do end up losing everything they acquired in the marriage, including property, assets, access to their own children, etc. Men are expected to descend into indentured servitude to support ex-wives with lavish tastes.

And yet, in too many cases, women complain that they can't find men who are willing to commit, who are ready to pledge their lives to a woman, men who will take the step to propose marriage and family. But in too many of those same cases, who can blame them? Why would any man want to take the chance at losing everything if a marriage goes to pieces after five or eight years?

The problem is that we have trivialized marriage, made divorce too easy, penalized too many ordinary people for the behavior of the worst ones, and discarded the traditional, God-established roles for male and female. Once you pull out that underpinning, the whole structure is bound to collapse.

Government strikes again.

 

[Christopher0121]

Doesn't really feel that good does it. Women have suffered for centuries and still do. Join the club!

True. Unfortunately, women have been oppressed historically. However, your post also acknowledges that society is now oppressing men.

Personally, I think the answer is to relieve all oppression and bring justice to all... not support the notion of "pay back". Because that isn't justice, that's vengeance.

 

[Krav Maga]

And toxic masculinity is the cause for much of that. Take positive masculine traits like physical strength and courage, pervert them and you have violent crime perpetrated by men. That’s toxic masculinity. Expecting all men to fight in wars whether or not they consent because "that’s what men do" - toxic masculinity. The belief that men can’t parent as well as women and must work the hardest and make money to have value in society - toxic masculinity. I think it’s better to say that these negative tropes and expectations are toxic masculinity than to say that they are authentic masculinity.

Under that same notion that men are causing these negative consequences, what do you believe toxic femininity causes? It’s easy for society to call a dad a deadbeat for skipping a child support payment for his boys and tell him to “be a man”. But a mom kills a baby and we call it pro-choice. More violence is perpetrated by women statistically (source below). Today we look at how most rape is caused by men, yet over look 87.5% of law enforcement that protect women are men. It’s easy to want to see men as predators without seeing both sexes have their problems.

Domestic Violence Facts and Statistics At A Glance – Domestic Violence Research