Toxic Masculinity Vs Toxic Femininity

[com7fy8]

Seems to me what many find toxic in masculinity or femininity are the very ideas of masculinity or femininity themselves. Although in the case of the latter it's not regarded as nearly as toxic and men are being encouraged to be more feminine while the traditional masculine virtues are diminished.

I think of Colossians 3:19 >

"Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them."

So, a basic is we need to not give in to whatever comes with bitterness. And if there are people bitter toward men and others bitter toward women, neither side is right, and therefore neither side can do what is right while still feeding on bitterness.

And there are things ones would call female, but they can be good for men > for example, what Paul and Silvanus and Timothy say in 1 Thessalonians 2:7.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

False accusations of rape are astonishingly low.

How can you be so sure? How do you know those stats? I had a friend that told me he was accused as such when it was really consensual, what triggered her into doing this was the fact that he stopped calling her.

What happened was, he was staying at a married couples' house. Apparently, this married couple was good friends with this woman.

When these 2 met and had sex, and then he stopped calling...this made her feel cheap, went to the married man of the couple and he threatened to kick him out of the house.

She later confessed it was consentual.

Another time, right in my small town, it made small town news. These 2 guys met these 2 women at a local restaurant/bar venue. Apparently, they knew each other from high school. One of these ladies was engaged to be married.

They all went back to these ladies place and they were hanging out, chatting and stuff....then the man and woman paired off to go to the bedroom. They had consensual sex.

She later accused him of rape and he was arrested. The judge threw it out because it was found out she was only trying to save her own skin because she didn't want her fiance' to find out she cheated on him.

I've heard other situations similar to this, and the motive to lie was mainly due to either having felt bad for having had a one-night stand, feeling cheap. Or it was to save their own skin.

 

[Paidiske]

How can you be so sure? How do you know those stats?

They've been widely investigated and reported. Feel free to google.

I'm not saying there are never false accusations. But that the vast majority of accusations are, in fact, found to be substantial even if there is insufficient evidence to secure a conviction.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

They've been widely investigated and reported. Feel free to google.

I'm not saying there are never false accusations. But that the vast majority of accusations are, in fact, found to be substantial even if there is insufficient evidence to secure a conviction.

Yeah I just did, you're right.

Had a female friend tell me this while in college. A guy took out in the middle of the ocean and did it. (He gave her the impression that other people will be at his "party".) Turned out, it was only her that was invited.

SHe never reported it, but how can you report that?

On the other hand, a woman I met a church singles group, said her fiance' raped her...yes...fiancé'. She was wanting to wait until marriage, he didn't...and the rest is history.

While he was still at her place, she called the police and had him picked up. It was easy as that.

 

[Paidiske]

SHe never reported it, but how can you report that?

You can, but most people don't, because the process only compounds the trauma and the chance of a conviction is tiny. Most of the women I've known who have been raped have never reported.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

You can, but most people don't, because the process only compounds the trauma and the chance of a conviction is tiny. Most of the women I've known who have been raped have never reported.

...right...also, I just added another story to that post about where her fiance' was picked up by the police.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

You can, but most people don't, because the process only compounds the trauma and the chance of a conviction is tiny. Most of the women I've known who have been raped have never reported.

Also, then I hear you have lawyers or the court really questioning the woman, too.

I read about a copule celebrities that were falsley accused.

Just google Chris Hardwick and Aziz Ansari. After hearing the full story, the accusers were proven wrong. I think with Ansari, the woman was kind of reluctant, but went with it anyway?

 

[Wolseley]

Frankly, you seem to hold women in contempt, viewing us as only out for ourselves, exploitative, selfish and manipulative. You don't seem to recognise the reality of the many women who are loving, joyful, peaceful contributors to their marriages and households, their churches and wider society. It's a pretty warped view.

I certainly don't mean to seem vindictive, but frankly, based on what you've written in this thread, I could come to the same conclusion about you, in your apparent viewpoint about men.

You seem to view men as amoral, unfaithful, sexually-uncontrolled slugs who created a system of oppression from the dawn of history, designed to force women into subservience and fear. Men, apparently, are only out to get what they want from women and then jettison them or destroy them when they're done with them.

That's a pretty warped view as well.

 

[Paidiske]

You seem to view men as amoral, unfaithful, sexually-uncontrolled slugs who created a system of oppression from the dawn of history, designed to force women into subservience and fear. Men, apparently, are only out to get what they want from women and then jettison them or destroy them when they're done with them.

Then I have not put my view forward clearly enough.

Most men (like all people) are a mix of good and bad impulses. The majority of men are good, or at least good enough, husbands, fathers, brothers, and so on. I believe we are designed, if we can speak of design, to live in mutuality and partnership, not hierarchy and dominance; and I do not believe that sin and the fall have obliterated that design, only obscured it.

However, all men (like all people) are caught up in a patriarchal social system and culture, which is oppressive to men and women alike. It is that system and culture, not the individuals caught up in it, which is the primary target of my critique.

 

[Skye1300]

There's a really well-researched book out, called Men Who Hate Women, by Laura Bates. It looks at incels, pick up artists, MGTOW, men's rights activists, misogynistic online trolls, online extremism and its effects on teenagers, domestic and public violence against women, and the commonalities and connections between them, as well as how they might be addressed. I'd heartily recommend it for anyone wanting to get a good grip on the topic of "toxic masculinity."

A quote from the introduction: "Those who speak of 'toxic masculinity' are not criticising men, but rather defending them: describing an ideology and a system that pressures boys and men in our societies, in our families, to conform to unrealistic, unhealthy and unsustainable ideals. Crushing gender stereotypes are damaging to men as individuals, as well as to the society in which they live. Tackling this problem, dismantling these pressures, is a matter of life and death for our boys. They are toppling like dominoes into the chasm we leave behind when we tiptoe around and refuse to name the problem."

With each relationship a person is in, they carry a lot of baggage from it. And they bring that baggage to any new relationship and it will affect that new relationship because of resentment. My husband is my first and only relationship so I don't have the experience some have with dating men and being hurt by a lot of men. I think that makes a difference too. I see all men as the same as my husband and brothers. But I do think people who have dated a lot carry a lot of baggage and resentment from previous relationships with them where it festers and ruins the new relationship. Then when the relationship fails, it just confirms what they have come to believe about the opposite sex.

 

[Skye1300]

There was a topic on the radio where the host was reading of some current events topics/questions. And one of the questions was what is the most dangerous personality trait these days.

Answer: A man that's broke and alone.
The lady co-host agreed and expounded, "toxic masculinity" and "incels"

I just looked up the meaning of Incels, I never heard of that before.

 

[Skye1300]

Oh yea, indeed. Also then there's "red pill". Not that I condone toxic behavior or anything. Back in my early 30s, I caught up with an old college friend....we were both struggling with dating. In his early 20s he kept running into women that were knocked up with little kids all the time. Instant deal breaker, and but we were talking about our dating woes and frustrations, per normal like everyone does.

He introduced me to some MGTOW movement site. After reading it for a time, I was in agreement with a lot of men. I mean..it's typical, but some dudes there...with what they wrote, was down right disturbing. It was kind of a train wreck where you couldn't look away at times. A disturbing rabbit hole.

What is "red pill"?

 

[Paidiske]

What is "red pill"?

It's hard to find a good link that doesn't break CF's profanity rules, given the nature of much of the material, but this is not a bad place to start: Misogynist Incels and Male Supremacism

 

[Skye1300]

It's hard to find a good link that doesn't break CF's profanity rules, given the nature of much of the material, but this is not a bad place to start: Misogynist Incels and Male Supremacism

Thanks! I'll check that out.

 

[Skye1300]

It's hard to find a good link that doesn't break CF's profanity rules, given the nature of much of the material, but this is not a bad place to start: Misogynist Incels and Male Supremacism

Wow! I never knew those groups of men existed.

 

[Wolseley]

I just looked up the meaning of Incels, I never heard of that before.

While I do not doubt that there are plenty of discontented men (and women) out there, I also had to look up the definition of "incels". Wikipedia has this quote: "The American Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) described the subculture as 'part of the online male supremacist ecosystem' that is included in their list of hate groups."

Now, once again, I do not dispute the existence of unhappy men; but "the online male supremacist ecosystem" sounds to me like what you get when you cross a crocodile with an abalone.

 

[Wolseley]

The majority of men are good, or at least good enough, husbands, fathers, brothers, and so on.

Gee, thanks for that much, anyway.

I think.

 

[Niels]

I think labeling large swaths of men or women to be toxic is, in and of itself, incredibly toxic.It would make more sense to focus on manners, morals, and ethics for everyone, but those things take work! Shifting the focus to something as nebulous and external as "toxic masculinity" conveniently shifts the sense of agency away from the self.

 

[Wolseley]

I think labeling large swaths of men or women to be toxic is, in and of itself, incredibly toxic.It would make more sense to focus on manners, morals, and ethics for everyone, but those things take work! Shifting the focus to something as nebulous and external as "toxic masculinity" conveniently shifts the sense of agency away from the self.

Well said, Sir; well said.