"Toronto Blessing"

[TruthSetsYouFree]

Just a few verses that depict what could be slain in the Spirit. It isn't always slouching or being helped to the floor. I have seen people thrown several feet in the air before coming to rest on the floor in groups of 6-8 people and none reported injury.


1 Kings 8:11 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.
2 Chron. 5:14 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God.

John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Acts 9:4 and he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"


God is not afraid to offend our illusions. He is not limited to act in the way that we can prove He should. He is the same yesterday, today and forever in character but that doesn't mean He cannot or will not do something new to stretch our little boxes.


I lived in Western NY and visited Toronto on a number of occasions and personally know it was the Spirit.


Incidently, Randy Clark, senior pastor at the Toronto Vineyard (since separated from Vineyard) was in Brazil recently (this Aug-Sept) for a healing campaign that lasted 3 weeks and they saw 11000 miraculous healings and inumerable salvations and rededications. He had a team of 150 people, from all over the Us with him. Maybe Toronto was, but the impact is still being felt all over the globe. More than I can say for myself. What about the rest of you.


Blessings,


Doug

Wow, those are some very good verses! Thank you for posting these!!!

I too have witnessed people being thrown in the air, and getting slain in the Spirit... I have been slain in the Spirit myself! Glory be to God!!

 

[Surprised by joy]

I'm going to apologize up front, because I haven't read the whole thread through.

From the posts I have read, it seems that very few people discussing the Toronto Blessing have actually witnessed it, which is unfortunate, because we can hardly judge fairly what we've never seen.

I am no better than the rest, but my best friend and her family were involved in the Toronto Blessing, and I will share with you her thoughts.

She believes that the Blessing contains elements of both God's Spirit and demonic spirits. I can't back up biblically that these could exist in the same setting; she depends on biblical exegesis of Derek Prince for that assumption. In any case, my friend, after being prayed over with the laying on of hands, spent years suffering from frequent anxiety attacks and demonic nightmares. She was on medication for a while for the anxiety attacks, but said it didn't work. Only recently has she been delivered from that. That is her testimony regarding the Toronto Blessing.

We who are charismatics usually teach the laying on of hands pretty casually, but it's not a casual thing. The Bible doesn't say much about it, but it does say, "Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure." 1 Timothy 5:22

As for the manifestations of spiritual gifts, I'll just tackle one that I've heard mentioned. Being "drunk in the Spirit" is not being out of control, stumbling as we walk, slurring our words, or any chaotic manifestation. In fact I don't think the phrase "drunk in the Spirit" appears anywhere in the Bible. The apostles said they were not drunk, but filled with the Holy Spirit. The passage suggests that the people thought they were drunk solely because they were speaking in other languages.

 

[fieldlily]

What's all of your views on the Toronto Blessings (AKA, "Holy Laughter, Drunk in the Spirit, loud howling, etc")? Is it of God, of Satan, or of man?

Personally, I think it's definitely NOT of God.

I think it depends on the situation. I won't agree that the Toronto Blessings are necessarily from God, but then I wasn't there.

I do think that sometimes God provides Holy Laughter as a release, but to me it is not a thing to be sought for its own sake.

And surely the unholy spirit can use this laughing as a diversion from true worship and joy.

And in a very over-stressed society it sometimes feels good to laugh and laugh and laugh; that is a very human response or reflex...(of man).

The only criteria I see to discern is to examine what fruit it brings especially in partiuclar congregations. Did it do good or not? Afterwards was there any lasting peace, love, joy, kindness, patience...etc. See Galatians 5:22-23.

 

[probinson]

The apostles said they were not drunk, but filled with the Holy Spirit. The passage suggests that the people thought they were drunk solely because they were speaking in other languages.

"Guten Tag! Ich bin ein Berliner! Das ist ein bleistift. Der hund ist schnell."

"Oh my gosh honey! Get the camera! Someone is speaking in another langauge! They must be drunk!"

Uh, no.

I wouldn't think someone were drunk just because they were speaking in another language. Obviously, people perceived them to be drunk, but Peter said to the crowd that they were not drunk as you suppose. I can only logically conclude then that the crowd thought that these people were drunk with wine because they were acting like someone who was drunk with wine. I've seen a lot of drunk people. Shockingly enough, none of them spoke in another language. Speaking in another language is not a sign of drunkenness, nor would my first thought when I hear someone speaking in another language be that they were drunk.

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

"Guten Tag! Ich bin ein Berliner! Das ist ein bleistift. Der hund ist schnell."

"Oh my gosh honey! Get the camera! Someone is speaking in another langauge! They must be drunk!"

Uh, no.

I wouldn't think someone were drunk just because they were speaking in another language. Obviously, people perceived them to be drunk, but Peter said to the crowd that they were not drunk as you suppose. I can only logically conclude then that the crowd thought that these people were drunk with wine because they were acting like someone who was drunk with wine. I've seen a lot of drunk people. Shockingly enough, none of them spoke in another language. Speaking in another language is not a sign of drunkenness, nor would my first thought when I hear someone speaking in another language be that they were drunk.

Good point!

 

[whitedove7]

I've experienced both. My church moved in this movement. It all started with the children. They got touched, slained, all had visions of heaven and then as young as 3 years of age, started laying hands on the sick and they recovered.

In Pencacola, I saw many people get saved. Steve Hill, who is now in Tarrant County area in Texas, talked about repentance like I've never seen before and I saw people crying and getting right with God or getting saved.

This penomenon happened during Jonathan Edwards Great Awakening in 1734.

Charles Finney said some of the same things about misrepresentation of what God was doing. They experienced the same kind of things that Toronto experienced.

There were several times in history that the laughter broken out during revivals.

I know what I experienced was intense prayer, healings, and people's relationships being restored. They felt the father's love when they had a hard time concepting the Love of the Father when their earthly father's didn't.

I'm sure the day of penticost that it was a sight for sore eyes I'm sure. They were accused of being drunk.

It says in the last days that he will pour out his spirit in Acts 2:16-18. How do we know what that looks like? Maybe the Lord is pouring out his spirit on the flesh and our flesh cannot handle it.

 

[Surprised by joy]

Our flesh cannot handle it? No, God's power in us in New Testament times is no longer too much for us to bear. He gives us the manifestations of the Spirit for our benefit and to glorify Himself, not to overwhelm us.

Drunkness as we know it does not encourage coherence, or the ability to think and reason. However, Peter, while filled with the Holy Spirit, preached the gospel to people and many were saved. All of the apostles were coherent enough to be speaking in other languages in such a way that native speakers of those languages could understand them. Does that sound like being drunk to you?

 

[Shalia]

"Guten Tag! Ich bin ein Berliner! Das ist ein bleistift. Der hund ist schnell."

"Oh my gosh honey! Get the camera! Someone is speaking in another langauge! They must be drunk!"

Uh, no.

I wouldn't think someone were drunk just because they were speaking in another language. Obviously, people perceived them to be drunk, but Peter said to the crowd that they were not drunk as you suppose. I can only logically conclude then that the crowd thought that these people were drunk with wine because they were acting like someone who was drunk with wine. I've seen a lot of drunk people. Shockingly enough, none of them spoke in another language. Speaking in another language is not a sign of drunkenness, nor would my first thought when I hear someone speaking in another language be that they were drunk.

You are a jelly donut? *giggle*

It's always been one of the funniest things I've ever heard of. <Since I'm obviously a bit too young to have heard it personally... >

 

[Reazzurro90]

- Slain in the Spirit is something not mentioned in the Bible, BUT unless it contradicts the Bible, then nobody can say that it isn't of God. Jesus said that those who believe in Him will do the works He does, and even greater, and in the ending part of John, it tells us that Jesus did many many more things that were not recorded, but the PURPOSE of those writings were to get us to believe upon Jesus!

I'm not commenting on being Slain in the Spirit because I lack any background on that issue, so, again, I'm not even touching it. However, The "manifestations" described in the Toronto Blessing not only do not appear in the Bible, but are contradicted by it. I don't think I need to go over it again, because I'm beginning to sound like a broken record.

The Bible does NOT claim to cover EVERYTHING we will encounter spiritually! If we are going to do works greater then Jesus, then that pretty much opens the door for us to do all sorts of stuff that Jesus Himself didn't do, and the early church's documentation is very limited, and merely examples, so there's nothing to say that we can't be slain in the Spirit! If what we are doing is contradicting the Bible, THEN we have a problem!

Yes it does! The Bible never tells us that we will experience things that are out of scripture. We need to focus on the concept of Sola Scriptura. But although Slain in the Spirit is questionable, Holy Laughter, and barking are contradicted by the Bible. We are told to practice self-control and order. God does not confuse His flock!

Being slain in the Spirit is NOT in contradiction of the Bible. God can do whatever He chooses, and if He chooses to touch somebody and they are so overwhelmed by His power that they can no longer stand up, then there's nothing holding Him back! Like Child of JC said, who is glorified at those meetings? God or Satan?

God can also strike us down with lightning, but He hasn't chosen to do that now, has He? This is flawed logic, because although God can do anything He pleases, it doesn't mean He'll contradict His own word to express that! Another point - isn't it the same God being glorified when Jews are worshiping? Yet, isn't this Satan's victory because these people are lost to the Lord?

- When the early church received the Holy Ghost, people thought they were drunk too!

Just a few things to consider!

Bobby

I assume you're referring to this verse:

“Some, however, made fun of them and said, ‘They have had too much wine.’’’ (Acts 2:13)

This was not commented by fellow believers, but by skeptical onlookers. Furthermore, when the accusation was lashed against Peter and the apostles, he immediately provided biblical evidence for what had happened:

“These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:” (Acts 2:15-16)

Toronto Blessing advocates are incapable of doing just that.

 

[TreeOfLife]

"Guten Tag! Ich bin ein Berliner! Das ist ein bleistift. Der hund ist schnell."

Good day. I've been one from Berlin. That is one #####. Your rear is quick?

Ahhhh, I get it. It's another fart joke!

 

[AudioArtist]

If someone suddenly started speaking to me in different languages, the last thing I'd think is that they were drunk!

I'm sure people scoffed at the men Jesus healed as they ran leaping and praising God, too! Or as the disciples followed him making a racket-hence why He said, "if they were not crying out, the rocks would break out in praise!"

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

Reazzurro90, I was mostly defending slain in the Spirit. I've never heard of barking, and though I haven't experienced holy laughter (that I know of), I don't fight it. I know demons can manifest in church services to disrupt the service, but if I felt the person was being touched by God and was experiencing an overabundance of joy, and bursting out in laughter, then I wouldn't be quick to call it demonic. People can also manifest demons when they are flushed out of hiding in the presence of God, or while receiving deliverance prayer.

We are told to practice self-control and order.

This could be carried too far though. Jesus wasn't afraid to step out and let Himself be known by turning over tables in church, etc. Jesus cast demons out of people in public, they would scream, foam at the mouth, roll around the ground, and then lay there as if they were dead. If Holy Laughter disturbs some people, I don't think that's anything compared to casting out demons! Jesus didn't take people off to the side (as many deliverance ministries do) to help them, Jesus cast the demons out right in the middle of the street if He had to!

 

[probinson]

You are a jelly donut? *giggle*

It's always been one of the funniest things I've ever heard of. <Since I'm obviously a bit too young to have heard it personally... >

I wondered if anyone would pick up on that....

 

[probinson]

Good day. I've been one from Berlin. That is one #####. Your rear is quick?

Ahhhh, I get it. It's another fart joke!

For clarification, the translation of the German:

Guten Tag = Good day, or, Hello.

Ich bin en Berliner = I am a jelly donut.

Das ist ein bleistift = That is a pencil.

Der hund ist schnell = The dog is quick.

Sorry. It's the best I could come up with on short notice since it's been over 10 years since I had German class in high school

 

[JimB]

*****
This could be carried too far though. Jesus wasn't afraid to step out and let Himself be known by turning over tables in church, etc. Jesus cast demons out of people in public, they would scream, foam at the mouth, roll around the ground, and then lay there as if they were dead. If Holy Laughter disturbs some people, I don't think that's anything compared to casting out demons! Jesus didn't take people off to the side (as many deliverance ministries do) to help them, Jesus cast the demons out right in the middle of the street if He had to!

Has it occurred to you that you’re not Jesus? Jesus told us that what He did He did only as He was directed by the Father (John 5.19, 30). If the Father told me to turn tables over or cast out a devil, sure I would do it, but I wouldn’t do it just because everyone else does it.

\o/

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

Has it occurred to you that you’re not Jesus?

What makes you think I thought I was Jesus?

Jesus told us that what He did He did only as He was directed by the Father (John 5.19, 30). If the Father told me to turn tables over or cast out a devil, sure I would do it, but I wouldn’t do it just because everyone else does it.

The question here isn't if God told us to do something (as a matter of fact, we are TOLD to cast out demons, expose the works of darkness, etc.), the question is, is this a valid thing to do (providing God wants us to do it).

Eph 5:11, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."

Matthew 10:8, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

John 14:12, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

For clarification, the translation of the German:

Guten Tag = Good day, or, Hello.

Ich bin en Berliner = I am a jelly donut.

Das ist ein bleistift = That is a pencil.

Der hund ist schnell = The dog is quick.

Sorry. It's the best I could come up with on short notice since it's been over 10 years since I had German class in high school

I don't know much German. The only German that I can quote is from a notice I saw above a photocopier at a school I taught at:

Actung!
Das machinen ist controllen bie experten onlie.
Ist nict fer geverken bie dumnkophen.
Alle sighseenen stikkibeeken touristen keepen das kottenpikken handen offe.
Odervise vill schnappen das schpringenverken, causen der blinkenlights, und blitzensparken.

 

[Child of JC]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.

The Word is more than just scripture, it is Jesus Himself! He reveals Himself through our relationship. My mom gave me alot of guidlines growing up, that's not all there is to her. I know her because I spend time with her. Of course I dont mean that Jesus would do anything that contadicted scripture, but there is more to Him than what is actually writen. If this was not true, we would not be called into a relationship with him, but would be called to soley study the scriptures, and well, those of you who know the scriptures know the problems with that.

1Co 14:14 If I pray in tongues, my spirit prays but my mind lies fallow, and all that intelligence is wasted.

could there be intelligence in what we see at TACF?

1Co 14:15 So what's the solution? The answer is simple enough. Do both. I should be spiritually free and expressive as I pray, but I should also be thoughtful and mindful as I pray. I should sing with my spirit, and sing with my mind.

1Co 14:18 I'm grateful to God for the gift of praying in tongues that he gives us for praising him, which leads to wonderful intimacies we enjoy with him. I enter into this as much or more than any of you.


1Co 14:21 It's written in Scripture that God said, In strange tongues and from the mouths of strangers I will preach to this people, but they'll neither listen nor believe.

1Co 14:33 When we worship the right way, God doesn't stir us up into confusion; he brings us into harmony. This goes for all the churches--no exceptions. -The Message.

I never had the feeling while I was at the church that there was confusion, but that we were all there in one spirit to praise and meet with our Lord. One time, we were all getting ready to worship, but then the Lord took over and all together we sang "in the spirit", it was beautiful! The fact that people were on the floor, or whatever, did not go against the hamony because the people around him/her were joyful that they were in the peresence of God, and we proberbly prayed "MORE LORD!" not "please stop him Jesus, he's out of order". I think we are in harmony when we are seeking the one Lord, it's when someone comes against that. Now if the leaders were leading us against that, I would have to call that disorderly.

Just some more of my 2 cents. Interesting thread so far.

 

[probinson]

The Word is more than just scripture, it is Jesus Himself! He reveals Himself through our relationship.

Excellent point! May I just add:

John 5:39
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
​

 

[NewSong]

I could not vote. I believe God was initially in the Toronto blessing and I believe there was things that were of God and I did go there. I only went one service and it was pretty dead to be honest with you. There was nothing. Nothing outrageous. Nothing even remotely there to make me want to go back or dislike it. I have been told by those who were there when it was quite active and there was far more displays of "manifestations" that there was not a "good" impression that God was in those. However, for me, to toss out the baby with the bath water and call it all God or call it all man or to call it other would be totally wrong. I would not recommend someone selling all their possessions to go there. There is nothing more there than there is here on the forum and in your local church with your local pastor. The only thing different is someone decided to bark? Someone decided to run? Act out? or what? I do not know. The sermons were good that I have. The music was somewhat impressive. Worship was not outstanding and I was totally disappointed . . . .

There was more happening in my home church than there was in the "Toronto Blessing" and we have so much to show for God's work without some of the "manifestations" .... Who cares whether there is an outward manifestation ...it is what is done on the inside that matter and far more of that happened in my hometown than anyone would believe. God has made my church a lighthouse to the community and to the region and it is not because we seek to be "famous" or attention ... it is because it is happening from the inside out and people are seeing a difference in their family and friends, neighbors, employers and checking out what they are getting taught.

I would urge anyone who is seeking manifestations to NOT do so because I was dumb and I sat there praying to GOD that I would be super spiritual by having a manifestation and it never happened. I prayed, I fasted and I MISSED GOD.... Turn your eyes on God and wonderful things always happen and it may be strange to some but who cares...don't dwell on the outward. Seek God for the inward.

That is my take. I believe Toronto initally was started that way but someone or media got hung on the "manifestations" and what folks were doing. I would not go back again by the way. God is my living room and in my church and in my family and in my life and I have it all.

Blessings.