"Toronto Blessing"

[Child of JC]

Why not? Whether real Christians or not, that practice is error.

He who trust in himself is a fool,
but he who walks in wisdom is kept safe Pr 28:26

even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent
a descerning if he holds his tongue Pr. 17:28

let the wise man listen and add to their learning
and let the discerning get guidance Pr 1:5

Just as much as we are unable to proove that this is of God, you are unable to proove that this practice is error, and yet you make such a bold statement. You have the majority stating that is God, and I'm not suggesting that you should be swayed by this, but I would think that you would at least listen and understand where everyone is coming from. Humble yourself, it wont make you weak or lead you astray from the truth.

 

[Child of JC]

I think I am confused as to what revival is. When John the baptist said that Jesus was going to baptize us with the the Holy Spirit and with fire, I always thought that fire could be translated as "desire for God". And when Jesus said that He came to ignite us with fire and how he wished it were already ablaze, I thought this was revival. Fire spreads! It spreads in our hearts. So when I say that TACF is or was in revival, I believe it to be true because of all the people who were/are inginted for God. Our Lord is all about the heart, and he used this "revival" to reach many of them. So what I dont understand is why exacly this revival is not thought of as a true revival. I understand that one point is that it looks disorderly because of the barking and stuff. But what else?

 

[Child of JC]

However, people getting saved has to do only with the power of the Holy Spirit, and nothing at all to do with the revival. It has to do with the heart of the individual.

I think the Holy Spirt used the love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness that was produced out of this revival to attract the heart of the individuals. And then ya, by His power they were saved.

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

I haven't read but a couple of the posts here, but I take it you guys are talking about being slain in the Spirit, and seeing people do things like shake on the floor, etc. I'd just like to make a couple points that you may have not considered:

- Slain in the Spirit is something not mentioned in the Bible, BUT unless it contradicts the Bible, then nobody can say that it isn't of God. Jesus said that those who believe in Him will do the works He does, and even greater, and in the ending part of John, it tells us that Jesus did many many more things that were not recorded, but the PURPOSE of those writings were to get us to believe upon Jesus! The Bible does NOT claim to cover EVERYTHING we will encounter spiritually! If we are going to do works greater then Jesus, then that pretty much opens the door for us to do all sorts of stuff that Jesus Himself didn't do, and the early church's documentation is very limited, and merely examples, so there's nothing to say that we can't be slain in the Spirit! If what we are doing is contradicting the Bible, THEN we have a problem! Being slain in the Spirit is NOT in contradiction of the Bible. God can do whatever He chooses, and if He chooses to touch somebody and they are so overwhelmed by His power that they can no longer stand up, then there's nothing holding Him back! Like Child of JC said, who is glorified at those meetings? God or Satan?

- Somebody here mentioned farting. Are they serious? Have they seen this with their own two eyes? I don't believe this would be a manifestation of God's... and I've even heard that a person can fart when a demon comes out. Whether this is true or not, I have no idea, but I do know that demons have personalities, and I believe it's completely possible for a person to fart as a demon comes out while being prayed over. This would explain a person uncontrollably farting while being prayed over. The reason I don't see this as a manifestation of God, is because it's an act of mockery and disrespect, and that's not God's nature... that's something the devil would be upto.

- When the early church received the Holy Ghost, people thought they were drunk too!

Just a few things to consider!

Bobby

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Although I know this wasn't directed to me, I would tell them that God saves whom he please and can do that in spite of a number of circumstances.

On the other hand, don't you believe that it's reasonable that the Devil would give up a handful of people to God if it meant deceiving many more?

Your response is very welcome and important. Thank you for making it.

I don't see any precedent in Scripture for the Devil giving up anyone at all. I don't think that he would want to take the risk of even one person accepting Christ and then going on to have a ministry that might bring thousands of people out of the kingdom of darkness.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Your response is very welcome and important. Thank you for making it.

I don't see any precedent in Scripture for the Devil giving up anyone at all. I don't think that he would want to take the risk of even one person accepting Christ and then going on to have a ministry that might bring thousands of people out of the kingdom of darkness.

You guys are making me feel like a chip in a cosmic poker game.

That might be giving the devil more credit than he's due.

 

[12volt_man]

Your response is very welcome and important. Thank you for making it.

I don't see any precedent in Scripture for the Devil giving up anyone at all. I don't think that he would want to take the risk of even one person accepting Christ and then going on to have a ministry that might bring thousands of people out of the kingdom of darkness.

But what if that one person gets "saved" under someone like Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland and goes on to repeat harmful WoF doctrines to those thousands of people?

I would think that would be playing right into his hands.

 

[AudioArtist]

I haven't read but a couple of the posts here, but I take it you guys are talking about being slain in the Spirit, and seeing people do things like shake on the floor, etc. I'd just like to make a couple points that you may have not considered:

- Slain in the Spirit is something not mentioned in the Bible, BUT unless it contradicts the Bible, then nobody can say that it isn't of God. Jesus said that those who believe in Him will do the works He does, and even greater, and in the ending part of John, it tells us that Jesus did many many more things that were not recorded, but the PURPOSE of those writings were to get us to believe upon Jesus! The Bible does NOT claim to cover EVERYTHING we will encounter spiritually! If we are going to do works greater then Jesus, then that pretty much opens the door for us to do all sorts of stuff that Jesus Himself didn't do, and the early church's documentation is very limited, and merely examples, so there's nothing to say that we can't be slain in the Spirit! If what we are doing is contradicting the Bible, THEN we have a problem! Being slain in the Spirit is NOT in contradiction of the Bible. God can do whatever He chooses, and if He chooses to touch somebody and they are so overwhelmed by His power that they can no longer stand up, then there's nothing holding Him back! Like Child of JC said, who is glorified at those meetings? God or Satan?

- Somebody here mentioned farting. Are they serious? Have they seen this with their own two eyes? I don't believe this would be a manifestation of God's... and I've even heard that a person can fart when a demon comes out. Whether this is true or not, I have no idea, but I do know that demons have personalities, and I believe it's completely possible for a person to fart as a demon comes out while being prayed over. This would explain a person uncontrollably farting while being prayed over. The reason I don't see this as a manifestation of God, is because it's an act of mockery and disrespect, and that's not God's nature... that's something the devil would be upto.

- When the early church received the Holy Ghost, people thought they were drunk too!

Just a few things to consider!

Bobby

I find this to be the most balanced and sensible post in the thread. Thank you!

 

[JimB]

I haven't read but a couple of the posts here, but I take it you guys are talking about being slain in the Spirit, and seeing people do things like shake on the floor, etc. I'd just like to make a couple points that you may have not considered:

- Slain in the Spirit is something not mentioned in the Bible, BUT unless it contradicts the Bible, then nobody can say that it isn't of God. Jesus said that those who believe in Him will do the works He does, and even greater, and in the ending part of John, it tells us that Jesus did many many more things that were not recorded, but the PURPOSE of those writings were to get us to believe upon Jesus! The Bible does NOT claim to cover EVERYTHING we will encounter spiritually! If we are going to do works greater then Jesus, then that pretty much opens the door for us to do all sorts of stuff that Jesus Himself didn't do, and the early church's documentation is very limited, and merely examples, so there's nothing to say that we can't be slain in the Spirit! If what we are doing is contradicting the Bible, THEN we have a problem! Being slain in the Spirit is NOT in contradiction of the Bible. God can do whatever He chooses, and if He chooses to touch somebody and they are so overwhelmed by His power that they can no longer stand up, then there's nothing holding Him back! Like Child of JC said, who is glorified at those meetings? God or Satan?

- Somebody here mentioned farting. Are they serious? Have they seen this with their own two eyes? I don't believe this would be a manifestation of God's... and I've even heard that a person can fart when a demon comes out. Whether this is true or not, I have no idea, but I do know that demons have personalities, and I believe it's completely possible for a person to fart as a demon comes out while being prayed over. This would explain a person uncontrollably farting while being prayed over. The reason I don't see this as a manifestation of God, is because it's an act of mockery and disrespect, and that's not God's nature... that's something the devil would be upto.

- When the early church received the Holy Ghost, people thought they were drunk too!

Just a few things to consider!

Bobby

Sorry about the farting reference. It was a hyperbole I was using to make a point.

But you need to be careful with the “if-it-doesn’t-contradict-the-Bible-it-must-be-okay” view. That was the argument before the Civil War to justify slavery. Heck, they said, the Bible even advocated slavery. There are a lot of things the Bible doesn’t specifically condemn that are not okay.

The question must be asked, does being slain in the Spirit edify the whole church or just those who practice it. If it edifies only the practitioners and creates confusion among the others and we know God is not the author of confusion, then we must assess its importance. Some churches are slaying churches; some are not. In some falling down in a swoon is perfectly acceptable; in others it is not.

My rule of thumb is, if I don’t practice it at Walmart then I don’t do it at church. If God is not the same at Walmart as He is at church then your Christianity is not Christianity at all, it’s Churchianity. When are we going to see that? I feel God’s presence at Walmart (don’t you?), I have prayed there, have even had goosebumps there, prayed there, quietly spoke in tongues there, ministered to people there, shared Jesus there. On occasion Walmart as other places I go has been the house of God because two or three of us were there in His name. The expression of my Christian faith is as valid in the Mall as it is in a church building. It is if it’s real.

So, I don’t fall on the floor in Walmart; I don’t scream or dance or run or shake or bark like a dog or roar like a lion or cluck like a chicken. If I did, they would/should call for a paddy wagon. Still, we do it “at church” and think it is not bizarre.

I really do not understand this approach to Christianity. Jesus nor His disciples were the same in the marketplace as they were in the synagogue.

IMO.

\o/

 

[Christina M]

Somehow I don't think what happened in the Upper Room, or other occasions when the Spirit moved, would be well received at my local Walmart


Church should be a place where it is safe - and where all are prepared - to flow in the Spirit - as He chooses.

 

[AudioArtist]

Sorry about the farting reference. It was a hyperbole I was using to make a point.

But you need to be careful with the “if-it-doesn’t-contradict-the-Bible-it-must-be-okay” view. That was the argument before the Civil War to justify slavery. Heck, they said, the Bible even advocated slavery. There are a lot of things the Bible doesn’t specifically condemn that are not okay.

The question must be asked, does being slain in the Spirit edify the whole church or just those who practice it. If it edifies only the practitioners and creates confusion among the others and we know God is not the author of confusion, then we must assess its importance. Some churches are slaying churches; some are not. In some falling down in a swoon is perfectly acceptable; in others it is not.

My rule of thumb is, if I don’t practice it at Walmart then I don’t do it at church. If God is not the same at Walmart as He is at church then your Christianity is not Christianity at all, it’s Churchianity. When are we going to see that? I feel God’s presence at Walmart (don’t you?), I have prayed there, have even had goosebumps there, prayed there, quietly spoke in tongues there, ministered to people there, shared Jesus there. On occasion Walmart as other places I go has been the house of God because two or three of us were there in His name. The expression of my Christian faith is as valid in the Mall as it is in a church building. It is if it’s real.

So, I don’t fall on the floor in Walmart; I don’t scream or dance or run or shake or bark like a dog or roar like a lion or cluck like a chicken. If I did, they would/should call for a paddy wagon. Still, we do it “at church” and think it is not bizarre.

I really do not understand this approach to Christianity. Jesus nor His disciples were the same in the marketplace as they were in the synagogue.

IMO.

\o/

All I understood he was saying was that, just because a spiritual experience isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture, doesn't mean it isn't of God. And I really think slavery is a completely different matter to someone being so full of God's presence that they fall down. One is very possible, and is the mere result of someone being overpowered by God (well, that's what it felt like to me when I had to lay down once after being touched by Him.) The other is a disgusting evil which obviously contradicts the teaching: "Love thy neighbour", and also contradicts the clear message in the Bible that all races are equal in Christ.

Just because some people may be confused when someone is "slain in the spirit", doesn't make it less likely be to be real, imho. I'm sure people were confused when the apostles were filled with the Spirit, too-hence why they were thought of as drunk. It's merely one way in which the human body reacts to the sheer brilliance of the presence of the Holy Spirit.

By the way, I'm not saying being slain in the spirit is a neccessity in any way; I'm just saying that it could well be of God and that there is nothing terribly unusual or awful about it.

 

[JimB]

All I understood he was saying was that, just because a spiritual experience isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture, doesn't mean it isn't of God. And I really think slavery is a completely different matter to someone being so full of God's presence that they fall down. One is very possible, and is the mere result of someone being overpowered by God (well, that's what it felt like to me when I had to lay down once after being touched by Him.) The other is a disgusting evil which obviously contradicts the teaching: "Love thy neighbour", and also contradicts the clear message in the Bible that all races are equal in Christ.

Just because some people may be confused when someone is "slain in the spirit", doesn't make it less likely be to be real, imho. I'm sure people were confused when the apostles were filled with the Spirit, too-hence why they were thought of as drunk. It's merely one way in which the human body reacts to the sheer brilliance of the presence of the Holy Spirit.

By the way, I'm not saying being slain in the spirit is a neccessity in any way; I'm just saying that it could well be of God and that there is nothing terribly unusual or awful about it.

If you have been to as many P/C revivals as I have you sometimes suspect that falling down is expected. It seems that almost everyone who is prayed for in a prayer line feels an obligation to fall. I am not saying everyone is guilty of monkey-see-monkey-do; some, I am sure, are so overcome they cannot stand. But even in scripture, such things seem to be the exception and not the rule.

The difference (for me) is that at the Mall or Walmart we exercise self-control (a fruit of the Spirit) and self-discipline. Why shouldn’t we use the same God-given judgment in prayer lines?

\o/

 

[AudioArtist]

Fair enough.

I suppose I've been lucky with the services that I've been to. I've been kept safe from some of the things you may have seen.

 

[JimB]

Somehow I don't think what happened in the Upper Room, or other occasions when the Spirit moved, would be well received at my local Walmart


Church should be a place where it is safe - and where all are prepared - to flow in the Spirit - as He chooses.

What happened in the Upper Room at Pentecost occurred in a public place, the marketplace (actually, the scriptures does not say it happened in the “Upper Room” at all, but that is another discussion). But what happened in Acts 2 was a prophesied God-thing, not an emotionally suggestible thing, and as I said above, I am sure that it happens and still happens today. But such things are not the norm, even in scripture. There was, after all, one Pentecost.

I am all for the move of God and responding to Him with every part of our being providing it is authentically a God-thing. Too much of what happens in P/C worship services is exhibitionism and excess and not necessarily the Holy Spirit. It must grieve the Spirit to have some things blamed on Him. That was the very reason Paul wrote that long chapter in 1 Corinthians 14 - to curtail excesses. That is one of the very few chapters that deal with behavior in public worship. We need to practice 1 Corinthians 14 just as much as we want to practice Acts 2. Otherwise, we are unbalanced.

IMO.

\o/

 

[Christina M]

What happened in the Upper Room at Pentecost occurred in a public place, the marketplace

Regardless of the specific locality, it was a place...... where they all went......ANTICIPATING receiving from the Lord. They were gathered together in one accord. Walmarts are not known for that. Church is supposed to be like that.

 

[JimB]

Regardless of the specific locality, it was a place...... where they all went......ANTICIPATING receiving from the Lord. They were gathered together in one accord. Walmarts are not known for that. Church is supposed to be like that.

True, church meetings are different than Walmart but still, at least from my understanding of 1 Corinthians 14, there should be some decorum (decently and in order, I believe the chapter says.) Nowhere in the NT is uncontrolled, unbridled mayhem called for in anything we do. Since we are talking about the barking, clucking, braying, hysterical laughter, etc. that is attached to Toronto (rightly or wrongly), that is my focus in this thread.

\o/

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

But you need to be careful with the “if-it-doesn’t-contradict-the-Bible-it-must-be-okay” view. That was the argument before the Civil War to justify slavery. Heck, they said, the Bible even advocated slavery. There are a lot of things the Bible doesn’t specifically condemn that are not okay.

Slavery DOES contradict the Bible. Jesus told us to do unto others... forcefully taking somebody and making them do your chores is hardly loving one another or doing onto others. Don't you agree?

The question must be asked, does being slain in the Spirit edify the whole church or just those who practice it. If it edifies only the practitioners and creates confusion among the others and we know God is not the author of confusion, then we must assess its importance. Some churches are slaying churches; some are not. In some falling down in a swoon is perfectly acceptable; in others it is not.

I guess it depends on who's present. It would edify those who believe in it, but probably disturb those who don't believe in it. I would have to look at the rest of the service and ask myself, is it glorifying God? Are people being healed, saved, and delivered? If so, then who am I to judge something that the Bible doesn't preach against, and I get a peace about? Jesus would cast demons out of people in public, where they would come screaming out of people, foaming at the mouth, rolling around on the ground. Did what Jesus did glorify God? Absolutely! It sure didn't edify the Pharisees though! LOL

My rule of thumb is, if I don’t practice it at Walmart then I don’t do it at church.

Would you cast a demon out of somebody and have it screaming, foaming at the mouth, throwing the body around, etc. in public? Jesus did!

 

[JimB]

Slavery DOES contradict the Bible. Jesus told us to do unto others... forcefully taking somebody and making them do your chores is hardly loving one another or doing onto others. Don't you agree?

I guess it depends on who's present. It would edify those who believe in it, but probably disturb those who don't believe in it. I would have to look at the rest of the service and ask myself, is it glorifying God? Are people being healed, saved, and delivered? If so, then who am I to judge something that the Bible doesn't preach against, and I get a peace about? Jesus would cast demons out of people in public, where they would come screaming out of people, foaming at the mouth, rolling around on the ground. Did what Jesus did glorify God? Absolutely! It sure didn't edify the Pharisees though! LOL

Would you cast a demon out of somebody and have it screaming, foaming at the mouth, throwing the body around, etc. in public? Jesus did!

To answer that I would simply say that I would do it if God told me to do it. If Jesus is my example, then Jesus did only what He saw His Father doing and like and obedient Son, He did He was told (John 5.19, 30).

That is sort of my point. I am not convinced that everything that goes on in the name of God is, in fact, God, no matter how many people agree with it.

\o/

 

[Andry]

Regardless of the specific locality, it was a place...... where they all went......ANTICIPATING receiving from the Lord. They were gathered together in one accord. Walmarts are not known for that. Church is supposed to be like that.

That's just it.

We are the church. And while we may go to a church building to gather together regularly, if we as the church do not regularly express the kind of supposed Holy Spirit exhibitionism when not at our church building - eg. praying togther with our families at home - why do we maniacally do so on Sundays at our 'church'?

Is it perhaps because no one sees us 'at home'? There's a disconect there somewhere.

 

[Doug45]

I haven't read but a couple of the posts here, but I take it you guys are talking about being slain in the Spirit, and seeing people do things like shake on the floor, etc. I'd just like to make a couple points that you may have not considered:

- Slain in the Spirit is something not mentioned in the Bible, BUT unless it contradicts the Bible, then nobody can say that it isn't of God. Jesus said that those who believe in Him will do the works He does, and even greater, and in the ending part of John, it tells us that Jesus did many many more things that were not recorded, but the PURPOSE of those writings were to get us to believe upon Jesus! The Bible does NOT claim to cover EVERYTHING we will encounter spiritually! If we are going to do works greater then Jesus, then that pretty much opens the door for us to do all sorts of stuff that Jesus Himself didn't do, and the early church's documentation is very limited, and merely examples, so there's nothing to say that we can't be slain in the Spirit! If what we are doing is contradicting the Bible, THEN we have a problem! Being slain in the Spirit is NOT in contradiction of the Bible. God can do whatever He chooses, and if He chooses to touch somebody and they are so overwhelmed by His power that they can no longer stand up, then there's nothing holding Him back! Like Child of JC said, who is glorified at those meetings? God or Satan?

- Somebody here mentioned farting. Are they serious? Have they seen this with their own two eyes? I don't believe this would be a manifestation of God's... and I've even heard that a person can fart when a demon comes out. Whether this is true or not, I have no idea, but I do know that demons have personalities, and I believe it's completely possible for a person to fart as a demon comes out while being prayed over. This would explain a person uncontrollably farting while being prayed over. The reason I don't see this as a manifestation of God, is because it's an act of mockery and disrespect, and that's not God's nature... that's something the devil would be upto.

- When the early church received the Holy Ghost, people thought they were drunk too!

Just a few things to consider!

Bobby

Just a few verses that depict what could be slain in the Spirit. It isn't always slouching or being helped to the floor. I have seen people thrown several feet in the air before coming to rest on the floor in groups of 6-8 people and none reported injury.


1 Kings 8:11 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.
2 Chron. 5:14 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God.

John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Acts 9:4 and he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"


God is not afraid to offend our illusions. He is not limited to act in the way that we can prove He should. He is the same yesterday, today and forever in character but that doesn't mean He cannot or will not do something new to stretch our little boxes.


I lived in Western NY and visited Toronto on a number of occasions and personally know it was the Spirit.


Incidently, Randy Clark, senior pastor at the Toronto Vineyard (since separated from Vineyard) was in Brazil recently (this Aug-Sept) for a healing campaign that lasted 3 weeks and they saw 11000 miraculous healings and inumerable salvations and rededications. He had a team of 150 people, from all over the Us with him. Maybe Toronto was, but the impact is still being felt all over the globe. More than I can say for myself. What about the rest of you.


Blessings,


Doug