"Toronto Blessing"

[Reazzurro90]

Reazzurro90, I was mostly defending slain in the Spirit. I've never heard of barking, and though I haven't experienced holy laughter (that I know of), I don't fight it. I know demons can manifest in church services to disrupt the service, but if I felt the person was being touched by God and was experiencing an overabundance of joy, and bursting out in laughter, then I wouldn't be quick to call it demonic. People can also manifest demons when they are flushed out of hiding in the presence of God, or while receiving deliverance prayer.

I have heard that there exists biblical evidence for being slain in the Spirit (which I announced that I back away from criticizing), although I don't know what it is. However, though laughing is possible through the Holy Spirit, it is not obnoxious and hampering to the orderly worship process, as is demonstrated by "Holy Laughter" and "barking."

This could be carried too far though. Jesus wasn't afraid to step out and let Himself be known by turning over tables in church, etc. Jesus cast demons out of people in public, they would scream, foam at the mouth, roll around the ground, and then lay there as if they were dead. If Holy Laughter disturbs some people, I don't think that's anything compared to casting out demons! Jesus didn't take people off to the side (as many deliverance ministries do) to help them, Jesus cast the demons out right in the middle of the street if He had to!

Anything can be carried too far. And I don't dispute that it can be carried too far. However, we are clearly commanded to search the scriptures, to see the validity of such phenomenon. Comparing demon possession with Holy Laughter is not applicable, because there is solid and clear biblical support for casting out demons, but not shred of evidence supporting Holy Laughter, but if anything, attacking it.

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

Comparing demon possession with Holy Laughter is not applicable, because there is solid and clear biblical support for casting out demons, but not shred of evidence supporting Holy Laughter, but if anything, attacking it.

Often when God has something going on, Satan has a counterfeit. There's also a demonic version of tongues that isn't from God. There are many things that each side has going on, such as prophecy verses divination, etc. So if the devil has a demonic version of laughter, perhaps God has a version too?

Just a thought.

Which verses would you say are good for attacking 'holy laughter'?

-Bobby

 

[TreeOfLife]

I could not vote. I believe God was initially in the Toronto blessing and I believe there was things that were of God and I did go there. I only went one service and it was pretty dead to be honest with you. There was nothing. Nothing outrageous. Nothing even remotely there to make me want to go back or dislike it. I have been told by those who were there when it was quite active and there was far more displays of "manifestations" that there was not a "good" impression that God was in those. However, for me, to toss out the baby with the bath water and call it all God or call it all man or to call it other would be totally wrong. I would not recommend someone selling all their possessions to go there. There is nothing more there than there is here on the forum and in your local church with your local pastor. The only thing different is someone decided to bark? Someone decided to run? Act out? or what? I do not know. The sermons were good that I have. The music was somewhat impressive. Worship was not outstanding and I was totally disappointed . . . .

There was more happening in my home church than there was in the "Toronto Blessing" and we have so much to show for God's work without some of the "manifestations" .... Who cares whether there is an outward manifestation ...it is what is done on the inside that matter and far more of that happened in my hometown than anyone would believe. God has made my church a lighthouse to the community and to the region and it is not because we seek to be "famous" or attention ... it is because it is happening from the inside out and people are seeing a difference in their family and friends, neighbors, employers and checking out what they are getting taught.

I would urge anyone who is seeking manifestations to NOT do so because I was dumb and I sat there praying to GOD that I would be super spiritual by having a manifestation and it never happened. I prayed, I fasted and I MISSED GOD.... Turn your eyes on God and wonderful things always happen and it may be strange to some but who cares...don't dwell on the outward. Seek God for the inward.

That is my take. I believe Toronto initally was started that way but someone or media got hung on the "manifestations" and what folks were doing. I would not go back again by the way. God is my living room and in my church and in my family and in my life and I have it all.

Blessings.

Amen Newsong! That was an exceptional post and maybe one of the most mature posts on the subject. Thank you.

 

[Doug45]

Reazzurro90, I was mostly defending slain in the Spirit. I've never heard of barking, and though I haven't experienced holy laughter (that I know of), I don't fight it. I know demons can manifest in church services to disrupt the service, but if I felt the person was being touched by God and was experiencing an overabundance of joy, and bursting out in laughter, then I wouldn't be quick to call it demonic. People can also manifest demons when they are flushed out of hiding in the presence of God, or while receiving deliverance prayer.

I have heard that there exists biblical evidence for being slain in the Spirit (which I announced that I back away from criticizing), although I don't know what it is. However, though laughing is possible through the Holy Spirit, it is not obnoxious and hampering to the orderly worship process, as is demonstrated by "Holy Laughter" and "barking."

Anything can be carried too far. And I don't dispute that it can be carried too far. However, we are clearly commanded to search the scriptures, to see the validity of such phenomenon. Comparing demon possession with Holy Laughter is not applicable, because there is solid and clear biblical support for casting out demons, but not shred of evidence supporting Holy Laughter, but if anything, attacking it.

Holy laughter is not openly taught in the Bible, but here are a few verses that might refer to it. (Gen 21:6; Job 8:21; Ps 126:2.)

Usually, the orderly worship process is defined differently in different types of services. Holy laughter was in order at the Toronto Blessing evening services, but not normal to their Sunday worship service.

The other thing to consider is that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. How that has been taught traditionally is that it must be found in the scripture yet we bus people to churches, have Sunday school classes and many other things that don't even find a hint in the scripture. We accept these readily.

My contention is that God doesn't change in purpose and character. But a simple review of the Gospels will show that His method of communication changed with almost every person He met. So if laughter doesn't violate the scripture in either principle or letter, what's the big deal. Let God be God. It's easier.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

Holy laughter is not openly taught in the Bible, but here are a few verses that might refer to it. (Gen 21:6; Job 8:21; Ps 126:2.)

Usually, the orderly worship process is defined differently in different types of services. Holy laughter was in order at the Toronto Blessing evening services, but not normal to their Sunday worship service.

The other thing to consider is that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. How that has been taught traditionally is that it must be found in the scripture yet we bus people to churches, have Sunday school classes and many other things that don't even find a hint in the scripture. We accept these readily.

My contention is that God doesn't change in purpose and character. But a simple review of the Gospels will show that His method of communication changed with almost every person He met. So if laughter doesn't violate the scripture in either principle or letter, what's the big deal. Let God be God. It's easier.

Blessings,

Doug

Those are some good points, Doug!

 

[JimB]

*****
Holy laughter is not openly taught in the Bible, but here are a few verses that might refer to it. (Gen 21:6; Job 8:21; Ps 126:2.)
*****

Doug, with all respect, this is “IIDFFI”* theology. We should allow the Bible to determine what our theology says; not make our theology determine what the Bible says. The Bible simply does not support so-called “Holy Laughter”.

Contagious laughter is a common natural phenomenon, not a spiritual gift. Here are two articles re: the phenomenon from American Scientist and Psychology Today.

The latter article has this observation:

"Consider the extraordinary 1962 outbreak of contagious laughter in a girls' boarding school in Tanzania. The first symptoms appeared on January 30, when three girls got the giggles and couldn't stop laughing. The symptoms quickly spread to 95 students, forcing the school to close on March 18. The girls sent home from the school were vectors for the further spread of the epidemic. Related outbreaks occurred in other schools in Central Africa and spread like wildfire, ceasing two-and-a-half years later and afflicting nearly 1,000 people."​

​

This was not a move of God. It was the giggles in a girls’ school in a pagan country.​

\o/


*If it don’t fit force it.

 

[probinson]

This was not a move of God. It was the giggles in a girls’ school in a pagan country.
​

So the joy of the Lord is not our strength? I've had fits of laughter in church in the past, followed by great victories in my life the next day. It's resting in God. Realizing that in the midst of all of this nonsense going on, I'm going to laugh at my circumstances. I'm not going to get discouraged. I'm going to laugh laugh laugh and laugh some more because I'm overcome with the joy of the Lord.

Why is laughing bad? Why are we even debating this? What an enormous waste of time. Even if people laughed and it wasn't from God, who cares?! Can't people just be happy?

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

Doug, with all respect, this is “IIDFFI”* theology. We should allow the Bible to determine what our theology says; not make our theology determine what the Bible says. The Bible simply does not support so-called “Holy Laughter”.

Contagious laughter is a common natural phenomenon, not a spiritual gift. Here are two articles re: the phenomenon from American Scientist and Psychology Today.

The latter article has this observation:

"Consider the extraordinary 1962 outbreak of contagious laughter in a girls' boarding school in Tanzania. The first symptoms appeared on January 30, when three girls got the giggles and couldn't stop laughing. The symptoms quickly spread to 95 students, forcing the school to close on March 18. The girls sent home from the school were vectors for the further spread of the epidemic. Related outbreaks occurred in other schools in Central Africa and spread like wildfire, ceasing two-and-a-half years later and afflicting nearly 1,000 people."​

​

This was not a move of God. It was the giggles in a girls’ school in a pagan country.​

\o/



*If it don’t fit force it.

Jim, so can you prove either of these two points?

a) The Bible forbids or says that there is no such thing as Holy laughter

b) The Bible says that God cannot cause a person to laugh

If I'm not mistaken, God can do anything He wants, am I right? The only time when I would say that God wouldn't do something, is if He said He wouldn't do it in His Word. So does the Bible tell us that God would not cause a person to laugh? Where does this Bible tell us this?

Nobody said that holy laughter was a spiritual gift, as you mentioned in your post. It's something that I think can come onto a person while they are in God's presence. Where in the Bible does it say that such a thing cannot happen? And what are we supposed to do when we see a person joyfully laughing in God's presence? Tell them to knock it off? Are we going to stand up and tell people not to laugh in church when God's presence comes upon them?

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

Why is laughing bad? Why are we even debating this? What an enormous waste of time. Even if people laughed and it wasn't from God, who cares?! Can't people just be happy?

You took the words outta my mouth brother!

 

[LeeS]

Doug, with all respect, this is “IIDFFI”* theology. We should allow the Bible to determine what our theology says; not make our theology determine what the Bible says. The Bible simply does not support so-called “Holy Laughter”.

It most certaintly does! How would you describe "joy unspeakable"? (1 Peter 1:8) How about Acts 8:8. What do you suppose all that joy looked and sounded like?

 

[JimB]

Jim, so can you prove either of these two points?

a) The Bible forbids or says that there is no such thing as Holy laughter

b) The Bible says that God cannot cause a person to laugh

If I'm not mistaken, God can do anything He wants, am I right? The only time when I would say that God wouldn't do something, is if He said He wouldn't do it in His Word. So does the Bible tell us that God would not cause a person to laugh? Where does this Bible tell us this?

Nobody said that holy laughter was a spiritual gift, as you mentioned in your post. It's something that I think can come onto a person while they are in God's presence. Where in the Bible does it say that such a thing cannot happen? And what are we supposed to do when we see a person joyfully laughing in God's presence? Tell them to knock it off? Are we going to stand up and tell people not to laugh in church when God's presence comes upon them?

How can I prove something that is not there? If it is NOT in scripture how can I prove it is not except to tell you it isn’t? (Which it is not). It is the responsibility of those who say it is biblical to prove that scripture supports it. ​

Pointing to people who laughed in the Bible only proves that, well, people laugh (no surprise there), not that what goes on in the name of “Holy” Laughter is biblical.

And sure God can cause a person to laugh. He knows all the jokes.

Should we stop hysterical laughter in a church meeting? Heck, we should control hysterical anything in a church gathering if it is not edifying (to the whole body, not just the giggler), or causes disorder or confusion ... That is, if I am to take 1 Corinthians 14 seriously.

\o/

 

[Doug45]

Doug, with all respect, this is “IIDFFI”* theology. We should allow the Bible to determine what our theology says; not make our theology determine what the Bible says. The Bible simply does not support so-called “Holy Laughter”.

Contagious laughter is a common natural phenomenon, not a spiritual gift. Here are two articles re: the phenomenon from American Scientist and Psychology Today.

The latter article has this observation:

"Consider the extraordinary 1962 outbreak of contagious laughter in a girls' boarding school in Tanzania. The first symptoms appeared on January 30, when three girls got the giggles and couldn't stop laughing. The symptoms quickly spread to 95 students, forcing the school to close on March 18. The girls sent home from the school were vectors for the further spread of the epidemic. Related outbreaks occurred in other schools in Central Africa and spread like wildfire, ceasing two-and-a-half years later and afflicting nearly 1,000 people."​

​

This was not a move of God. It was the giggles in a girls’ school in a pagan country.​

\o/


*If it don’t fit force it.

Jim, I am not offended by your remarks, but respectfully disagree. I suggest that you reconsider whether you are a 'letter' man (one who interprets narrowly with reason) or a 'spirit' man ( one who interprets broadly with the heart).

2 Cor. 3:6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

I have no idea what IIDFFI refers to, but I don't think I presented it as a doctrine. I think my point was in the entirety of my post that God is not bound to function in His communication with us in any set manner.

What I said is that these verses may refer to holy laughter. I offered an alternative perspective to an attitude that has no basis in scripture or common sense.

As a personal testimony, I have never been caught up in the phenomenon. It bothered me a little also when I was in my 'I know it all' phase. So I decided to ask the Lord about the entire thing that was going on. Laughter was prominent, but there was also the thing of weeping and moaning before Him.

I was alone in the privacy of my own home and barely got the question out of my mouth when the Holy Spirit came upon me and I was overwhelmed with deep belly laughing. It lasted until I could no longer breathe. When in a desparate appeal to God He released me from the laughter. It wasn't the result of contagion or social influence. To continue the testimony, I immediately asked Him what about the weeping and moaning? Within seconds I was weeping beyond control and knew the burden of the Lord and His compassion for the oppressed, needy, infirm, and lost. That lasted for an additional ten minutes or so.

Through that experience and my understanding of the Lord, He was saying becareful what you denounce for you might be resisting My hand. Worse yet is the implications of shutting the door to my own personal experience of God as a personality.

To compare the destructive result of a social crowd based 'contagion' is a dangerous thing. Toronto Blessing affected millions of people and hundreds of nations in a posative way. In most cases there was deliverance happening setting His people free. And the irony here is that Rodney Howard Brown who was the foremost perpetrator of this phenomenon wasn't from Toronto Blessing but from Brownsville and originally South Africa. But it seems that Toronto is taking the 'rap'. It is only unfortunate that all of the Church didn't experience the blessing.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[JimB]

For IIDFFI see my asterisk and footnote. ​

And I respectfully reply. The “spirit of the NT” does not mean interpreting scripture any way you want to or letting your experience dictate what is true. We have to prove all things and test the spirits. We are nowhere told to swallow all things. What you are offering is license and not liberty (IMO).

The objective (probably) scientific studies on laughter I gave links to above are interesting in that they show us that laughter is a natural phenomenon common only to homo sapiens and that contagious laughter is an extraordinary phenomenon. It has happened to me when I have been in church and it has happened when I was watching Steve Martin. It even happened to my wife and I during a serious lecture on Civil War armaments when the speaker kept calling skirmishes “squeamishes”. Our laughter became so infectiously uncontrollable we had to sneak out of the lecture (and we were on the front row). I even know people who laugh when they are afraid or nervous.

IMO, none of these occurrences, not even the first one, were “God”. They were simply my natural response to stimuli, like goose bumps or repulsion or shock. Even laughter can be contagious, as any slumber party of giggling girls will testify. I have found myself laughing at sit-com laugh tracks and wondered, when my brain finally kicked in, what was so funny. I was just laughing with the laughter. It was a response to stimuli. TV producers know this better than P/C Christians.

IMO, this perfectly normal phenomenon is all that happens in cackling church meetings. So, if it is natural response to some sorth of stimuli (which I am convinced it is), it should not be promoted but, as with anything, we should exercise self-controlled (personally) or managed (in public) gatherings when it becomes, um, unedifying.

\o/

 

[Doug45]

For IIDFFI see my asterisk and footnote.

Thank you for the clarification.
​

And I respectfully reply. The “spirit of the NT” does not mean interpreting scripture any way you want to or letting your experience dictate what is true. We have to prove all things and test the spirits. We are nowhere told to swallow all things. What you are offering is license and not liberty (IMO).

You are correct it doesn't give us reason to swallow all things, but it can totally violate the religious status quo. The Pharisees of Jesus' day would have total disdain for Jesus for entering Samaria, not to even consider Him talking to a woman and an outcast at that. Yet He called it meat from the Father. John 4

The objective (probably) scientific studies on laughter I gave links to above are interesting in that they show us that laughter is a natural phenomenon common only to homo sapiens and that contagious laughter is an extraordinary phenomenon. It has happened to me when I have been in church and it has happened when I was watching Steve Martin. It even happened to my wife and I during a serious lecture on Civil War armaments when the speaker kept calling skirmishes “squeamishes”. Our laughter became so infectiously uncontrollable we had to sneak out of the lecture (and we were on the front row). I even know people who laugh when they are afraid or nervous.

Funny story about your wife. I like it.

IMO, none of these occurrences, not even the first one, were “God”. They were simply my natural response to stimuli, like goose bumps or repulsion or shock. Even laughter can be contagious, as any slumber party of giggling girls will testify. I have found myself laughing at sit-com laugh tracks and wondered, when my brain finally kicked in, what was so funny. I was just laughing with the laughter. It was a response to stimuli. TV producers know this better than P/C Christians.

IMO, this perfectly normal phenomenon is all that happens in cackling church meetings. So, if it is natural response to some sorth of stimuli (which I am convinced it is), it should not be promoted but, as with anything, we should exercise self-controlled (personally) or managed (in public) gatherings when it becomes, um, unedifying.

I'm not questioning the fact that contagious laughter is a natural response to stimulii. The real question is what was the stimulus?

As a clarification to my personal experience, I hardly ever laugh out loud. It is usually a chuckle or a smile. So when He came upon me, it was neither normal or contagious. It was instant. Does that constitute the foundation for a 'doctrine'? Absolutely not. So I will never teach people that they should respond that way to the Spirit.

But on the other hand, there isn't even a suggestion that God does not want us to laugh uncontrollably so I would not make that a doctrine either.

Instead I would try to discern the spirit of the occasion and I would make room for those who laugh uncontrollably and for those who do not. And I would be careful not to condemn either to a place of teaching a false doctrine. But that's me.

\o/

Blessings,

Doug

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

How can I prove something that is not there? If it is NOT in scripture how can I prove it is not except to tell you it isn’t? (Which it is not).

Jim, there are a LOT of things that aren't in scripture! Marriage counseling isn't found there.... youth ministry... ouija boards (not of God, but certainly a spiritual thing - which proves that the Bible does NOT list all the things relating to the spiritual realm)... etc.etc.

It is the responsibility of those who say it is biblical to prove that scripture supports it.

I never said that holy laughter was Biblical.

Should we stop hysterical laughter in a church meeting? Heck, we should control hysterical anything in a church gathering if it is not edifying (to the whole body, not just the giggler), or causes disorder or confusion ... That is, if I am to take 1 Corinthians 14 seriously.

I don't think God would want holy laughter to be used in such a way that it confuses or disrupts the rest of the group. But I know there are times when 'holy laughter' (if there is such a thing) can be practiced in a way that doesn't disrupt things or cause confusion.

I think I've stated my beliefs (not claiming that holy laughter IS Biblical, but not denying the possibility of it existing either), and I don't see at this point how it would be beneficial to continue debating on it. We both have the right to believe as we choose. If you can show me where the Bible speaks against holy laughter, then you'll have my attention. Until then, I think I'm going to mosey along.

 

[NewSong]

I would like to comment on the "holy laughter"....

The first time I was introduced to this, I didn't realize I was introduced to this. ...Please do not make anything out of this more than I am sharing with you.

I was so desperate for anything in my life other than depression, anxiety and living worse than some cats and dogs live. I was tired of existing...This is the state of mind I was in okay...then my church makes an anouncement about camp meeting and so I go and I am really "agoraphobic" and so for me to go to those meetings 78 miles away, it was a big step of faith believing God or desperate for something to happen....and I truly could relate to pressing in through the crowds just to get what I needed...I would tell God all the time, "I don't understand why the stuff that happens with Oral Roberts and Benny Hinn don't happen to me." I felt completely and totally left out by God because I was so desperate. I drove the distance and got to that morning camp meeting with my uncle and not a peep through the whole service and the guy is preaching about the power of GOD all through the service and I remember what he said as clear as day, don't pray this prayer unless you mean it. "Holy Spirit, I need you, I will not stop you, I will not hinder you, I will not tell you how to move in my life, but I ask You to move in my life." My hands were raised as high I could get them and then all of the sudden I felt this urge to laugh. I brought my hands down and stuck them in my dress pocket and walked out of the back of the tabernacle and have never been able to laugh. I was about half way home and crying hard and I told my uncle that the Holy Spirit had been grieved. I cried and I cried hard.... Now I do not know which one of us grieved the Spirit me or others that I guess laughed a lot after I left but I do know that the Holy Spirit in me grieved. It became traditional to go to these services and I wanted to go anywhere where there was laughter, I was so tired of grieving and crying and depression, panic. I would have give anything to have a good laugh. I couldn't force one if I had to and all these people were around me laughing in these services and I was devestated because I thought God was leaving me out and I would be crying. I cannot tell you what that done to me. I lost perspective of reading the Word of God and my time with GOD and was seeking laughter. I begged God to name me Isaac so I could laugh. I followed this evangelist all over the place many, many miles. I would wake up in the night and cry and cry. I finally called one of the other girls and her husband and told my pastor that this man needed to be prayed for that he was very sick. I couldn't shake it. They laughed at me. They kind of said, I was out of my tree that they had just seen the evangelist and the evangelist was fine. A couple of months later, this young evangelist died and left behind two young children and a young wife. I didn't see God. I see a diversion of my attention and I seen something in this guy that I had never seen before and I was fascinated but I don't remember finding God anywhere but in my living room heartbroken and devestated and crying out to God wondering why it was like that.

I share this because this is someone who was gullible, believed all the scriptures used for the "holy laughter" and yet when I released myself to the Holy Spirit and totally surrendered that was not his way.... I later done a word study on mirth, laughter, joy and I found it is often there especially after coming out of captivity but never did it disruptive and rude.

Thank you for letting me share my experience with you.

 

[JimB]

Jim, there are a LOT of things that aren't in scripture! Marriage counseling isn't found there.... youth ministry... ouija boards (not of God, but certainly a spiritual thing - which proves that the Bible does NOT list all the things relating to the spiritual realm)... etc.etc.

So, you are not suggesting that we make this up as we go, are you? The things of the Spirit of God are there for us to understand, and they better be there, and we better heed them or we are playing with fire (lying spirits, deceiving spirits, etc.) He has, through His Word, “given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue … by his exceeding great and precious promises” (2 Peter 1.3). Those promises are His Word.

If you were to cook a meal for me I would hope you would read the recipe.

Do you think God left us here to forge our own way, calling the natural supernatural, the false truth, emotionalism liberty, and urges the leading of the Spirit without giving us guidelines?

Without the clear direction of God’s Word regarding spiritual matters we are at best blind guides of the blind.

IMO that is exactly what happened at Toronto (hysteria, barking, roaring, birthing, etc,) years ago and why the Vineyard disassociated with it. I do not know what it has become since the early-90s and will reserve opinion on that but what I know of its earliest days from eyewitnesses, it was nothing more than uncontrolled emotionalism. Discerning people recognized it immediately.

I think I've stated my beliefs (not claiming that holy laughter IS Biblical, but not denying the possibility of it existing either), and I don't see at this point how it would be beneficial to continue debating on it. We both have the right to believe as we choose. If you can show me where the Bible speaks against holy laughter, then you'll have my attention. Until then, I think I'm going to mosey along.

I am not sure which side of the issue you are on, here. Heck the Bible does not speak against pedophilia, either, or smoking crack cocaine, but we know it is wrong. Good sense tells us that.

\o/

 

[Christina M]

If you were to cook a meal for me I would hope you would read the recipe.

Since you are buying me dinner in Texas, I will cook you dinner in San Diego!..... BUT, you need to know... I am a gourmet Italian cook..... yet, I NEVER use a recipe!

Don't you think sometimes we just know things.....the word says we need no teacher?

 

[TruthSetsYouFree]

Jim, why do you want to keep going back and fourth on this?

You have no Biblical case, and you're trying to tell me that God can't give His people laughter in His presence. Why should I believe you?

 

[JimB]

Jim, why do you want to keep going back and fourth on this?

You have no Biblical case, and you're trying to tell me that God can't give His people laughter in His presence. Why should I believe you?

If you do not want me to go “back and forth” on this issue, stop returning my volleys. It takes two to go back and forth in tennis and in a discussion.

Are you just ignoring the scriptures I have taken the time and effort to offer in every post (with links), not to mention the excellent logic of my arguments , or are you simply not wanting to see my point?

Sure God gives joy. He makes me laugh, sometimes. But he does not make me do it to disrupt a service, or call attention to myself at a revival meeting, or to put my spirituality on display … whatever other reason you feel God wants you do become hysterical in a crowd. He has given me the fruit of the Spirit, self-control (Gal. 5.23). He expects me to exercise it, even at church.
And you don't have to believe me nor I you, but we must respect each other's opinions.
\o/