"Toronto Blessing"

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Remember though, that was a statement from one pagan to a group of other pagans, not a teaching to Christians.

If it was, then the Bible would be contradicting itself when it tells us that we are to judge the teachings we hear and those who teach them.

Regardless of who said it (I believe it was Gamaliel, one of the wisest Pharisee of the Jewish faith), it is still wise counsel which we should all follow. If Luke (who wrote the Book of Acts) felt it important enough to include in his account, then it should be taken seriously by wise Christians.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Now, what exactly is "carpet time"? Sorry, I wasn't raised in a church at all, and I've only attended a Pentacostal one for just over a year, and I've honestly never heard of this before.

Thanks.

I've been associated with the Pentecostal movement for 39 years and I have never heard of it either. Must be one of those new fangled expressions. I don't see any of the Apostles in the New Testament mentioning it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have never bought into this tired old Pentecostal slogan (not even when I wuz a Pentecostal). There are other ways of teaching humility than forcing us to be bizarre. Most people I know who do bizarre, attention-getting things like you mentioned are not humbled by it; they are downright PROUD of it. I just don’t see the connection between bizarre behavior and humility.

\o/

Just to be a stirrer, I would like to ask you what you would say to a person who accepted Christ or got baptised in the Spirit in a meeting like that. Would you tell them that their conversion or their gift wasn't valid because it happened in a meeting where bizarre events were happening?

 

[12volt_man]

Regardless of who said it (I believe it was Gamaliel, one of the wisest Pharisee of the Jewish faith), it is still wise counsel which we should all follow. If Luke (who wrote the Book of Acts) felt it important enough to include in his account, then it should be taken seriously by wise Christians.

So then, how do you reconcile this with the Bible's teaching to judge the teachings we hear and those who teach them, and to have nothing to do with false teachers?

Do you believe that it's ever appropriate to speak out against false teaching?

 

[12volt_man]

Just to be a stirrer, I would like to ask you what you would say to a person who accepted Christ or got baptised in the Spirit in a meeting like that. Would you tell them that their conversion or their gift wasn't valid because it happened in a meeting where bizarre events were happening?

Although I know this wasn't directed to me, I would tell them that God saves whom he please and can do that in spite of a number of circumstances.

On the other hand, don't you believe that it's reasonable that the Devil would give up a handful of people to God if it meant deceiving many more?

 

[LivingWorship]

Although I know this wasn't directed to me, I would tell them that God saves whom he please and can do that in spite of a number of circumstances.

On the other hand, don't you believe that it's reasonable that the Devil would give up a handful of people to God if it meant deceiving many more?

Gee, 12volt - that's a really bizarre thought... all I know is that God's bent on getting as many humans into heaven, and I suspect the devil's out to get as many souls lost, damned eternally.

 

[vijethanaomi]

I think i can't judge that because i didn't experience it at all..

Because God said "any one who says agains the holy spirit will not be forgiven"

By agreeing or disagreeing to the fact i don't want to judge..

 

[12volt_man]

Gee, 12volt - that's a really bizarre thought... all I know is that God's bent on getting as many humans into heaven, and I suspect the devil's out to get as many souls lost, damned eternally.

But don't you think that the Devil is smart enough to let a couple of people go so that well meaning but misguided Christians will say, "But it must be from God. People got saved!" and deceive many more?

If the Devil was some big scary monster who jumped up and waved a pitchfork at you, then nobody would follow him.

Instead, the Bible tells us that he comes as an angel of light and mimics the things of God in order to deceive people.

Everything the Devil does is couched in a thin veneer of truth.

That's why it's so important for us to know God's word and test the things we hear against it.

 

[LivingWorship]

yeah mate, I agree with you... I hadn't really considered that...

I agree, testing the spirits is paramount. There are some WoFers and charismatics on these boards who will still agree with you... even if they disagree with your view or whatever they too will strongly encourage you to test the things you see and hear.

 

[12volt_man]

yeah mate, I agree with you... I hadn't really considered that...

I agree, testing the spirits is paramount. There are some WoFers and charismatics on these boards who will still agree with you... even if they disagree with your view or whatever they too will strongly encourage you to test the things you see and hear.

Sadly, I don't believe that this is true.

Typically, when a WoFer is confronted with questionable teachings from the WoF movement, rather than thoughtfully considering those things in light of scripture, they attack the one who points it out or just excuses the teaching.

 

[JimB]

Just to be a stirrer, I would like to ask you what you would say to a person who accepted Christ or got baptised in the Spirit in a meeting like that. Would you tell them that their conversion or their gift wasn't valid because it happened in a meeting where bizarre events were happening?

Actually, I was saved in a meeting like that. But that does not mean the end justifies the means. People get saved in liturgical Episcopal meetings, too. To tell the truth, I had to work myself through a lot of the bizarreness to get to Christ the morning I was saved. The performers had nothing to do with it. I was desperate that morning and their antics made little difference.

\o/

 

[LivingWorship]

Some do, 12volt. But you'll be surprised at how balanced many of them actually are. I don't entirely hold to Wof but I appreciate the heart behind it. You'll find the same on these boards... there are great people on both sides of this debate... and there are also bad people on both sides of the debate. Brother, all I can say is keep on standing up for what you believe and keep an open heart. God bless you mate

 

[12volt_man]

Some do, 12volt. But you'll be surprised at how balanced many of them actually are.

This hasn't been my experience, either as a member in this movement (in fact, one of the reasons I'm no longer in that movement is that I was thrown out of my church for daring to question WoF teaching) or on these boards.

 

[Jillymac]

What is "hoa!" supposed to mean???

For those who were asking what "Hoa" meant - i just meant when they open their mouths they kinda make that noise i spose i could've spelt it "Hoooo" or something else, its just a noise - its not an abbreviation for anything

 

[JimB]

I would have to call it the "Toronto Mixed Blessing".

The Vineyard officially disassociated from the Toronto Mixed Blessing (thanks for the new designation) 1996 and apparent the Toronto Airport Vineyard in which the whole thing started.

A 1997 article in Christianity Today quotes John Wimber as saying:

"Toronto was changing the definition of renewal in the Vineyard. Our decision was to withdraw endorsement; their decision was to resign. At the Vineyard, we see renewal not only of individuals but of the forms and practice of the church. For instance, when an individual is stirred by God, it will be reflected in a new attitude toward witnessing and cooperating with the work the Lord is doing in his or her life. I don't have any objection to phenomenon per se. I think Jonathan Edwards has adequately addressed the issue of phenomena in revival, and I would generally take his position. However, I think if it's fleshly and brought out by some sort of display, or promoted by somebody on stage, that's abysmal. But if God does something to somebody, that's between them and God.​

”When the Toronto thing first occurred, people were reciting 1 Corinthians 14 regarding orderliness in the service. I thought about it and wrote back saying, 'Whose orderliness?' Our current culture-adapted understanding or order, or the Holy Spirit's order?​

”When babies are born, is that orderly? It's as messy as anything. Blood all over the place. The child comes out all right, but it's not developed. It's not cultured. It's not brought into the world already mature. The norm for God moving among people is a pretty messy thing. If you go back to revival literature, you can say, Wow, that's messy."​

​

​

​

~Christianity Today, July 14, 1997, pp. 46-47​

​

Wimber, I feel, was walking a tightrope. While he approved of manifestations he (and other leaders in the movement) was concerned that after three years, the Toronto network was placing undue emphasis on certain experiences at the expense of more vital things. Manifestations, and not the proclamation of the Gospel, had become the central focus of the “blessing” both in the eyes of its advocates and its critics. It was felt the emphasis had become a distraction to what should be the central aspects of any move of God in the Christian church, Jesus Christ.
IOW, the thing had at that phase degenerated into an unbalanced three-ring-circus.

I am not sure where the Toronto movement is at this phase, but I am glad the Vineyard disassociated with the “mixed blessing” as it was in 1995. Otherwise, I would be something besides Vineyard today.

\o/

 

[Child of JC]

Although I know this wasn't directed to me, I would tell them that God saves whom he please and can do that in spite of a number of circumstances.

On the other hand, don't you believe that it's reasonable that the Devil would give up a handful of people to God if it meant deceiving many more?

Dont give the devil so much credit! God is in control!

 

[Child of JC]

But don't you think that the Devil is smart enough to let a couple of people go so that well meaning but misguided Christians will say, "But it must be from God. People got saved!" and deceive many more?

If the Devil was some big scary monster who jumped up and waved a pitchfork at you, then nobody would follow him.

Instead, the Bible tells us that he comes as an angel of light and mimics the things of God in order to deceive people.

Everything the Devil does is couched in a thin veneer of truth.

That's why it's so important for us to know God's word and test the things we hear against it.

Alot more than just a few were saved! People dont gets saved because the devil allows it, they get saved because they beleive the truth and because the Holy Spirt (which is God) has convicted their hearts of their sin.

 

[12volt_man]

Alot more than just a few were saved!

It doesn't matter how many people it is. Where in the Bible are we told to judge what is true or not true based on how many people get saved?

What about all of the people who have heard Hinn's message and have been deceived?

What about the people who do get saved but who are ensnared by false teaching because of Hinn's ministry?

When do we get to the part of discernement where we actually pull out our Bibles and examine what we're hearing in light of God's word?

People dont gets saved because the devil allows it, they get saved because they beleive the truth and because the Holy Spirt (which is God) has convicted their hearts of their sin.

No, people don't get saved because of the Devil, but the Devil does work to keep people from hearing the Gospel. Even Jesus taught this. I believe that Benny Hinn has shown himself to be just one of those hinderances.

 

[12volt_man]

Dont give the devil so much credit! God is in control!

Yes, God is in control, but even Jesus told us that we're to be on the lookout for the Devil.

 

[Child of JC]

It doesn't matter how many people it is. Where in the Bible are we told to judge what is true or not true based on how many people get saved?.

Now it doesn't matter? In your post you stated that the devil allowed "a few to get saved" so he could deceive others, and when I state that it was alot more than "a few" you try and hurl the bible at ME?

What about the people who do get saved but who are ensnared by false teaching because of Hinn's ministry?

When do we get to the part of discernement where we actually pull out our Bibles and examine what we're hearing in light of God's word?.

I still say that people get saved because they hear the TRUTH, not because they hear false teaching. I dont know about Benny Hinn's ministry, but whatever happend God allowed it, and so I know it is working for his good.

No, people don't get saved because of the Devil, but the Devil does work to keep people from hearing the Gospel. Even Jesus taught this. I believe that Benny Hinn has shown himself to be just one of those hinderances.

I thought you said that the devil sometimes allows the gospel to be heard.

This may feel like an attack brother, but I'm just trying to show you that your origianl statment is not sound.