Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,128
6,906
California
✟61,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
"Judaism believes that the Torah was created before the world, thus historic Judaism came to accept that the Word (The Torah) can be legitimately viewed as a form of incarnation. Some Jewish scholars will argue that even the nation of Israel is an incarnational process, and that Ezekiel 37 speaking of the “dry bones” addresses this."
"The Incarnation from a Jewish Perspective" | Chosen People Ministries

Was/is Yashua ha Mashiach Torah (the Law) Incarnate?

In what way has the Law been done away with?

In what way was the Law Incarnate forsaken by the Father?

If the Law was forsaken, killed, and buried...was it/He not also resurrected?

Where is the Law now?
 

straykat

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
1,120
640
Catacombs
✟22,648.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Indeed he is, I think. I think this idea was probably more prominent in an older form of Judaism though, reflected in the Targums. In Aramaic, the Word was Memra (not exactly Torah, but simply the Word). In the paraphrases, Memra was used interchangeably with God, and would often show up in the same areas as the Angel of the Lord as well.. so he wasn't merely an abstract Word, but an actual Messenger of God one could see (on a sidenote, Orthodox believe this is Christ and call them OT theophanies, I suppose some Protestants do as well and call them Christophanies, but some Catholics do not).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soyeong
Upvote 0

nonaeroterraqueous

Nonexistent Member
Aug 16, 2014
2,915
2,724
✟188,987.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
thus historic Judaism came to accept that the Word (The Torah) can be legitimately viewed as a form of incarnation.

Was/is Yashua ha Mashiach Torah (the Law) Incarnate?

He was the Word, incarnate, which was logos in the original Greek. Nomos is the word (or a form of it) that would have been used to refer to the Torah (the law), I believe. I don't think the first chapter of John is to suggest that Christ was the Torah incarnate. He was not the law become flesh, but the word become flesh. I also don't think that the Jews regarded, ever, the Torah as being incarnate into human form, but that they regarded God's law as something eternal, being part of God's nature, and that putting the laws into writing was merely to make a physical form of something that always existed.
 
Upvote 0

straykat

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
1,120
640
Catacombs
✟22,648.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
He was the Word, incarnate, which was logos in the original Greek. Nomos is the word (or a form of it) that would have been used to refer to the Torah (the law), I believe. I don't think the first chapter of John is to suggest that Christ was the Torah incarnate. He was not the law become flesh, but the word become flesh. I also don't think that the Jews regarded, ever, the Torah as being incarnate into human form, but that they regarded God's law as something eternal, being part of God's nature, and that putting the laws into writing was merely to make a physical form of something that always existed.

Logos was just the best Greek term for Memra (although essentially it was the same concept: the creative agent of God). John was just a fisherman. Not a Hellenic philosopher. That was sadly one mistake some in the early church made (specifically Origen) by tacking on the Neoplatonic concept of Logos on to it, when John was just a Jew, who would have heard teachings like those reflected in their apocryphal texts (Jubilees speaks of Memra) or the Targums... and then simply gave the best Greek equivalent to what was already a Jewish idea.

MEMRA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Soyeong
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,290
5,242
45
Oregon
✟958,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
What's the difference?
The Word was long before, especially the letter of the law... Encompasses way more...

Now the Spirit of the Law could be the Word, but that's another topic/discussion...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,128
6,906
California
✟61,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
The Word was long before, especially the letter of the law... Encompasses way more...

Now the Spirit of the Law could be the Word, but that's another topic/discussion...

God Bless!

So you're saying the "letter of the law" is not the Word, but the "Spirit of the Law" is the Word?

Do you think there is a correlation here with the Law written on stone and the Law written on hearts?
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,207
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Was/is Yashua ha Mashiach Torah (the Law) Incarnate?

I don't know how to answer this. I would say he is the incarnation of messianic prophecy (found in the Law of Moses). If this is what we are talking about, then he is. Your further questions to me will assume this as the meaning for now.

In what way has the Law been done away with?

The Old Covenant, containing the Mosaic law, is done away with. However, since the perfect standard of righteousness was formally given through the Mosaic law, comprehended under the Ten Commandments, it isn't done away with. It is our moral obligation to fulfill that perfect standard of righteousness before God, which is clearly embedded in our conscience since creation, but distorted and blurred from the fall. This formal written code of moral truth convicts our dead conscience of right from wrong, and places us under the judgment of it. We are truly condemned under that legal declaration.

The Law of Moses, contained in the Old Covenant, properly deals with the nation of Israel and their covenant relationship with God in the land of Canaan. It conditioned the enjoyment of their existence in Canaan. If you obeyed it, as a Jew at that time, you were blessed. If you did not obey it, you were cursed with many maledictions. Until a throne was established, people were judged on individual basis. When the throne was established, God making his covenant with David and his offspring, they were judged according to the faithfulness of their king (as well as their own to some extent).

The New Covenant, which Christ brought, is what the Old Covenant promised and typified. It properly deals with eternal things, as opposed to temporal things; with the eternal kingdom, instead of an temporal kingdom; with a spiritual people, instead of an carnal/ethnic people; with better promises than all that would have been enjoyed in Israel as a nation in this life. True forgiveness of sins could not be attained under the Old Covenant system, only the forgiveness of transgressions committed against that particular covenant agreement with weak and temporal sacrifices from animal. These sacrifices not only atoned for sins committed against God under this Old Covenant in a temporal and external way, they pointed forward to the one True Sacrifice that atoned for sin itself before a holy God (the spiritual reality).

An unbelieving Jew could enjoy all the promises of God under the Mosaic law, and still die in their sins, because that particular covenant dealt with the carnal blessings made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

It is commonly misunderstood that because Jesus was Jewish, under the Mosaic law, that his obedience to that particular law was necessary for him to bring about the New Covenant. What is meant by him being born under the law refers to the perfect standard of God's righteousness revealed through the Mosaic law. Since it is impossible to separate the perfect standard from the Law of Moses itself, they are termed the same thing often, because they are interconnected with each other. Jesus obeyed the perfect standard of righteousness revealed in the Law of Moses (active obedience) and suffered for the sins of sinners who are condemned under that perfect standard of righteousness (passive obedience). These were prerequisite for him to bring about the New Covenant, made between him and the Father in eternity past. These were his conditions, as the Law of Moses was for Israel's kings, in order to bring about every blessing in the New Covenant to all of us in him. He earned perfect righteousness, we in him share in that status by faith, uniting with him by faith. He earned reconciliation with God and the forgiveness of sins, we share in that by faith, uniting with him by faith. The New Covenant did not do away with the Old, rather it was the fulfillment of the Old and the purpose/end of the Old. Once Christ came, it was ready to disappear for the official establishing all the promises of God in him by way of covenant.

In what way was the Law Incarnate forsaken by the Father?

God poured out his wrath against him, body and soul, what we would suffer in eternity. Since he was perfect God and perfect man, he was able to suffer for man and endure the whole weight of that eternity in three hours. God treated him as a sinner, or as the Scriptures say, "He was numbered among the transgressors."

If the Law was forsaken, killed, and buried...was it/He not also resurrected?

He was resurrected. If he did not rise, we would not be saved, because...

1. He would not have earned the title of Victor in our place, being dead.
2. He would not have credited/imputed that righteousness, being dead.

...among other things.

Where is the Law now?

The Law of Moses, or Jesus? The latter is sitting at the right hand of God, interceding for all his elect with his precious blood, ready to come and bring the whole world into judgment. The former, in your bibles.
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,290
5,242
45
Oregon
✟958,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
So you're saying the "letter of the law" is not the Word, but the "Spirit of the Law" is the Word?

The letter of the Law is part of the Word, But the Spirit encompasses more, much more... And the letter is not the way either...

Do you think there is a correlation here with the Law written on stone and the Law written on hearts?
I would direct you to these posts in this thread:

WHERE DOES IT SAY GOD'S SABBATH IS ABOLSIHED AND WE ARE COMMANDED TO KEEP SUNDAY AS A HOLY DAY?

Starting with the post above in this thread, and on that page, all my posts after it on that page (#64)...

I think they will answer a lot of your questions...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,729
10,038
78
Auckland
✟379,425.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
From Romans 8:

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

2 For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.

Just wanted to reference the verses above that contrast the two laws under discussion.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Judaism believes that the Torah was created before the world,
They believe that God used the Hebrew letters to create the world. There are 22 letters and the believe that the letters contain the basic elements needed for life. There are videos about this on youtube.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,564
18,498
Orlando, Florida
✟1,257,133.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Logos was just the best Greek term for Memra (although essentially it was the same concept: the creative agent of God). John was just a fisherman. Not a Hellenic philosopher. That was sadly one mistake some in the early church made (specifically Origen) by tacking on the Neoplatonic concept of Logos on to it, when John was just a Jew, who would have heard teachings like those reflected in their apocryphal texts (Jubilees speaks of Memra) or the Targums... and then simply gave the best Greek equivalent to what was already a Jewish idea.

MEMRA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

You can also see this development in the deuterocanon, there are hints at a kind of proto-binitarianism.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: straykat
Upvote 0

ace of hearts

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
3,507
1,149
west coast
✟39,128.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
"Judaism believes that the Torah was created before the world, thus historic Judaism came to accept that the Word (The Torah) can be legitimately viewed as a form of incarnation. Some Jewish scholars will argue that even the nation of Israel is an incarnational process, and that Ezekiel 37 speaking of the “dry bones” addresses this."
"The Incarnation from a Jewish Perspective" | Chosen People Ministries

Was/is Yashua ha Mashiach Torah (the Law) Incarnate?

In what way has the Law been done away with?

In what way was the Law Incarnate forsaken by the Father?

If the Law was forsaken, killed, and buried...was it/He not also resurrected?

Where is the Law now?
No the law wasn't resurrected.
 
Upvote 0

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you obeyed it, as a Jew at that time, you were blessed. If you did not obey it, you were cursed with many maledictions.
Moses gives us a choice and we have the same choice today. Life or death, sickness or health, blessing or curse, poverty or prosperity. Making the right choices in life draws us closer to God and His blessing for us. Making the wrong choices leads us away from God and all the results of that. The list is almost endless but we can love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, and contentment. Or we can have misery, suffering sorrow, sickness and so on. People can live a long healthy life or they can die an early death in a state of misery based on the choices that they make.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,207
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Moses gives us a choice and we have the same choice today. Life or death, sickness or health, blessing or curse, poverty or prosperity. Making the right choices in life draws us closer to God and His blessing for us. Making the wrong choices leads us away from God and all the results of that. The list is almost endless but we can love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, and contentment. Or we can have misery, suffering sorrow, sickness and so on. People can live a long healthy life or they can die an early death in a state of misery based on the choices that they make.

Well, with what Moses spoke distinctly about referred to the divine blessings toward the nation of Israel as his covenant people if they obeyed his law. I don't deny that God would bless those who obey him; however, there were unique and higher blessings to the body and life of the Jew who obeyed God's Law, because it was within the promises of that sworn covenant made between them. We will not experience the same blessings, to the same extent, that God blessed Israel. That was their distinct reward for being his covenant people at that time. Persecution is promised the Christian for being Christ's, but for Israel they would never experience any sort of persecution if they obeyed, referring to distinctions between us and them, and the nature of each other's relationship to God by way of covenant.
 
Upvote 0

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, with what Moses spoke distinctly about referred to the divine blessings toward the nation of Israel as his covenant people if they obeyed his law. I don't deny that God would bless those who obey him; however, there were unique and higher blessings to the body and life of the Jew who obeyed God's Law, because it was within the promises of that sworn covenant made between them. We will not experience the same blessings, to the same extent, that God blessed Israel. That was their distinct reward for being his covenant people at that time. Persecution is promised the Christian for being Christ's, but for Israel they would never experience any sort of persecution if they obeyed, referring to distinctions between us and them, and the nature of each other's relationship to God by way of covenant.
Yes Moses wrote for the nation of Israel so that is the first consideration. Then we look at how that applies to us today and to our generation. We (Gentiles) have a better covenant with God based on better promises. We have to look for the hidden meaning. For example we do not sacrifice animals in a temple but we still take our Priesthood very serious before God. As Peter teaches us.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,812.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
"Judaism believes that the Torah was created before the world, thus historic Judaism came to accept that the Word (The Torah) can be legitimately viewed as a form of incarnation. Some Jewish scholars will argue that even the nation of Israel is an incarnational process, and that Ezekiel 37 speaking of the “dry bones” addresses this."
"The Incarnation from a Jewish Perspective" | Chosen People Ministries

Was/is Yashua ha Mashiach Torah (the Law) Incarnate?

In what way has the Law been done away with?

In what way was the Law Incarnate forsaken by the Father?

If the Law was forsaken, killed, and buried...was it/He not also resurrected?

Where is the Law now?

The Bible consistently uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of the Torah, such as being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) and this is straightforward because it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits. Yeshua expressed the character traits of God through His actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Torah, so he is the Nefesh Elohim that is the aspect of God's being that interacts in space and time or the human personification of God's Law/character.

So Yes, Yeshua is the Torah incarnate. No, the Torah is the eternal Word of God and has never and will never be done away with. The Torah incarnate has not be forsaken by the Father. On the cross, Yeshua reference Psalm 22, which spoke prophetically on what was happening to him, and in which he was not forsaken.

The Targum is an Aramaic translation of the OT where they often paraphrased to add sense to text (Nehemiah 8:8), which gives us a good glimpse of how they understood the text at that time. For example, if they thought a passage was alluding to the Messiah, then they would directly say that. One of the things that they did in order to avoid anthropomorphizing God was to us the word "Memra" in place of human characteristics, which is also translated as "Logos" or "Word", so again the Word is the human personification of God. For example:

Targum Genesis 1:27 And the Word of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them.

Targum Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the repose of the day; and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

Targum Genesis 7:16 And they coming entered, male and female, of all flesh unto him, as the Lord had instructed him; and the Word of the Lord covered over the door of the ark upon the face thereof.

In other words, the Targum attributes all of creation to the Word of the Lord, so everything was made through the Word and without the Word there was nothing made that has been made. So there is a striking resemblance between the opening of John's Gospel and the Targum of Genesis 1, whereupon John then sequentially listed six attributes that the Word of the Lord was considered to have had, so by identifying Jesus as the Word he was definitely making a connection with an already existing concept.

Philo was an Alexandrian Jew who was roughly contemporary with Jesus, but probably never met him. He wrote:

"...the most universal of all things is God; and in the second place the Word of God (Allegorical Interpretation, II, 86)

"...the shadow of God is His Word, which He used like an instrument when He was making the world..." (Allegorical Interpretation, III, 96)

"This same Word is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race, which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race...neither being uncreated as God, nor yet created as you, but being in the midst between these two extremities..." (Who is the Heir of Divine Things, 205-6)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,604
Hudson
✟283,812.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
From Romans 8:

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

2 For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.

Just wanted to reference the verses above that contrast the two laws under discussion.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

In Romans 7:21-8:2, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, which he served with his flesh, so he straightforwardly equated God's Law with the Law of the Spirit and contrasted them both with the law of sin and death.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,729
10,038
78
Auckland
✟379,425.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Romans 7:21-8:2, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, which he served with his flesh, so he straightforwardly equated God's Law with the Law of the Spirit and contrasted them both with the law of sin and death.

Galatians chapter 3 spells out clearly that our righteousness is by faith and those trying to justify keeping the law to achieve some righteous gain are in fact under a curse.

But those trusting in His righteousness are free from the curse and enjoy the Blessings promised to Abraham and all his descendants in the family of faith in which he is the father.

Romans 4:11 following, says Abraham is... "the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised...."

So both believing Jew and Gentile have always been justified by faith only.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
 
Upvote 0