Torah Incarnate

[ace of hearts]

You seemed to be widening the scope of my question not "narrowing things down", but I know that misunderstanding is to be expected in these kind of discussions, so no need to apologize. I was just asking for your view of the relationship between YHWH and His Torah. Granted, I asked because I believe that if you honestly asked yourself this question, you cannot help, but see that He and His Torah have a relationship that may be compared to your relationship with your words that you are typing here on this forum. The only difference is, His words are perfect and He will not take them back.

Maybe I need to ask you what you mean with the word "Torah?"

What do you mean God won't take words back?

 

[Tone]

Maybe I need to ask you what you mean with the word "Torah?"

What do you mean God won't take words back?

That which was written on stones and in ink and is now written on flesh and blood.

Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Isaiah 55:11
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

"Listen, my son, to your father's instruction and do not forsake your mother's teaching [Torah]." (Proverbs 1:8)

"My son, do not forget my teaching [Torah], but keep my commands in your heart". (Proverbs 3:1)

"Blessed is the man you discipline, O LORD, the man you teach from your Torah" (Psalms 94:12)

 

[bbbbbbb]

You might find this helpful - Torah - Wikipedia

 

[ace of hearts]

That which was written on stones and in ink and is now written on flesh and blood.

Where? None of your quote support your statement.

Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Isaiah 55:11
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

"Listen, my son, to your father's instruction and do not forsake your mother's teaching [Torah]." (Proverbs 1:8)

"My son, do not forget my teaching [Torah], but keep my commands in your heart". (Proverbs 3:1)

"Blessed is the man you discipline, O LORD, the man you teach from your Torah" (Psalms 94:12)

 

[Kaon]

"Judaism believes that the Torah was created before the world, thus historic Judaism came to accept that the Word (The Torah) can be legitimately viewed as a form of incarnation. Some Jewish scholars will argue that even the nation of Israel is an incarnational process, and that Ezekiel 37 speaking of the “dry bones” addresses this."
"The Incarnation from a Jewish Perspective" | Chosen People Ministries

Was/is Yashua ha Mashiach Torah (the Law) Incarnate?

The entity known as Yashuah/Yahoshuah is the Living Word of the Most High God. When most people refer to the Word of God, they mean a canonical text. The entity Himself is the Word.

Whatever He says is set, and everything said would need to be compared against Him, and what He says. Any man or entity that contradicts Him is wrong at best.

In what way has the Law been done away with?

Going by the criteria above, there is not one place where the Word of God Himself, or the Most High God has ever done away with any law. The Redeemer was the actual sacrifice worthy to blot out our sins, and when the Redeemer came, He told us that we are to execute MERCY first. There will still be a judgment as per the Law, but our King is using mercy , so we must also. (We have a problem with blood lust, judging people when we do the same things, and relishing in the power to end life.)

In what way was the Law Incarnate forsaken by the Father?

None. If the Word of God Himself wasn't so brutally murdered for being Himself, He would have been allowed to finish Psalm 22 on the cross - which ends with praise of the Most High God despite a misunderstanding or dislike of current conditions. And then, Psalm 23 (if in order) would have solidified His position for us. We were supposed to be well-read in the Word of God to realize what He was saying on the Cross... what He was alluding to.

If the Law was forsaken, killed, and buried...was it/He not also resurrected?

Where is the Law now?

He was resurrected but we have a very dull and green understanding of "life". Right now, we are animated corpses. Humans were meant to be the juxtaposition between spirit and matter as we know it - living vessels. However, the curse of sin has removed "life" from us. Our genetics are denatured and inert (academia calls it junk DNA, but it isn't junk at all.) What we call dying is an expiration of the vessel; we don't even have our own living spirits unique to us. This is why we are to be completely new creatures. When Adam died, he died completely. All of us humans are descendants of MAN, not son of God.

The Law is where He is supposed to be - at the right hand of the Most High God. Part if His mission was to defeat sin for us. He needs to be away - exactly where He is in my opinion - because this show us that we TOO will also leave this plane of existence attempting to be hell if/when we endure until the end and stay righteous. It shows the promise wasn't empty. He is Living in communion with the Most High God.

 

[Tone]

Where? None of your quote support your statement.

Ezekiel 36:26
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Hebrews 10:16
"“This is the covenant that I shall give them after those days, says THE LORD JEHOVAH: I shall put my law into their minds, and I shall write it upon their hearts,"

 

[Tone]

Psalms 23:4
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

These are our teachers, correcting us in order to show that what they turn us from is death.

When our obedience is full, we must complete the cycle of education by teaching others.

2 Corinthians 10:6
"But we are prepared to execute the punishment of those who do not obey when your obedience is fulfilled."

This means we give hard lessons to those going down a destructive route.

If we can't see this and/or do nothing if we do, how can we say that we have learned any of our lessons?

When we complete this learning cycle, by turning from destruction ourselves, and then, teach others to do the same; this is when we are truly obedient.

Mark 9:35
"And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all."

...the servant of all is the teacher of all.

Matthew 5:19
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Following Messiah is being the Servant He was...He had to give everyone the hard lessons...lessons that caused His students to hate Him, and even kill Him...Yet, this was His love, that what He taught will be vindicated in the end, when all confess that what He said and did, He did to make His hearers turn from death and follow after life...true life...

How can we say that we are like Him and that we follow Him if we don't learn our hard lessons and, in turn, teach them to our neighbors?

John 15:12-14
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.
You are my friends if you do what I command."

 

[ace of hearts]

Ezekiel 36:26
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Hebrews 10:16
"“This is the covenant that I shall give them after those days, says THE LORD JEHOVAH: I shall put my law into their minds, and I shall write it upon their hearts,"

I don't think you noticed the coma at the end of your Hebrews quote. So my question is what is "this covenant that I shall give them? I believe it appears in the rest of the sentence found in verse 17 - "and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

 

[ace of hearts]

Psalms 23:4
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

These are our teachers, correcting us in order to show that what they turn us from is death.

When our obedience is full, we must complete the cycle of education by teaching others.

2 Corinthians 10:6
"But we are prepared to execute the punishment of those who do not obey when your obedience is fulfilled."

This means we give hard lessons to those going down a destructive route.

Unfortunately I found I can never give instruction to those on a destructive route. They simply won't listen to good advice or instruction.

 

[philadelphos]

Indeed, Let God be true and every man a liar.

Hi, I'm new here. - Firstly, how refreshing to read the truth preached, and read healthy discourse and exegesis about Torah. Thank you @Soyeong for an excellent rebuttal against anti-nomianism and separationism / replacement theology. And thank you @Carl Emerson for your constructive questions. I'm so encouraged and revitalised being here.

Right, I think some theology and church history may be helpful in this discussion...

Anti-nomianism (anti-commandment keeping / anti-'The Law') is linked closely with anti-semitism in church history... contextually and politically... it also relates to creedalism, ecumenism, and the Roman Catholicism / Babylon / Mother of Harlots. This is the dilemma with systematic theology: Practice. Man cannot replicate God's work. The Lord expressly said, "I will build my church" (Mt. 16:18) -- This is I believe where the split occurs and why there's resistance to the Torah, or confusion surrounding it, or resistance against it. Likewise, vice versa against Protestants, Evangelicals, etc.

There's 2 groups:

Group A accepts that the church is and will be built by God (OT - At Jewish Exodus), by Christ (in future - Jew & Gentile union, completing the 'Body of Christ', 'every kneed shall bow' etc) and by the Holy Spirit (at Omer/Acts).

However, Group B rejects this and has been trying to build their own church since 'Peter' / the 'Rock' / apostolic succession, i.e. Romanism & Popery, which is the same sin as the Babylonians who wanted to 'make a name for ourselves' (vs God who hates pride, Pro. 6. 17-19). i.e. like Lucifer's who's pride and desire for fame consumes him.

"For thou (Lucifer) hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (Isa. 14) -- N.b. The competing 'I will' statements, imitating Christ, and God who first said "I will make him an help meet for him." in Genesis 2.

So these 2 groups are adversaries...

For elaboration, see 'Anti-Judaism and the Council of Nicea', by Rick Aharon Chaimberlin, detailing the motivations behind the "Jewish Passover" vs "Christian Passover", prohibitions separating Christians from Jews, later attacks on Jews and synagogues, Jewish-only taxes (Fiscus Judaicus), turning Jews in 2nd-class citizens, etc.

See also details in the later Council of Laodicea, in 'NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils' by Philip Schaff, with explicit anti-nomian / anti-semitic sections, dogmatic views engrained into the Crusaders and also Protestantism in 2019...

Quote: "CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ." (Canon XXIX.)

The Council of Laodicea is rather important in relation to the Biblical narrative because the Lord expressly condemned 'The Church of Laodicea' (Rev. 3), and as we know throughout the Bible, one does not need to be physically or genetically linked to a place to be related. One can be related intellectually, ideologically, legally, etc. Hence, there are many evidences to suggest that Western Church is the spiritual descendent of Laodicea, hence the 'church of' Laodicea, historically, theologically, creedally, dogmatically, ritually, and politically...

The Lord warned, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: ... thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods ... I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich... be zealous therefore, and repent."

See also Alexander Hislop (1858), 'The Two Babylons', who has extensively covers the errors of Roman Catholicism and earlier eras.

Now, in the Protestant camp:

Systematic theologian, John Calvin, actually stood against Romanism, Babylonianism, etc, and the rejection of Jews and the Torah... Calvin "accepted the entire system of religion as handed down by Moses" (Institutes 2.7.1) which of course included the Torah / Pentateuch. He accepted also the 7th day sabbath (the number 7 symbolising God's perfection) as well as the 8th day Lord's Day (the number 8 symbolising new creation), continuing both Jewish practice and Early Church practice.

Unfortunately though, his pro-Torah view was never enacted. His full view was never practiced and his successors didn't carry on this part of his work (too focused on the 5 sola etc = creedalism). Too much politics during that period, plus cultural and practical difficulties it seems. Also because Calvin was the minority, one man overwhelmed by a national support to retain Babylonian festivities... i.e. The Germanic people wanted Christmas, and Easter, and Sunday-only worship... done 'in the name of Christ'... And such churches are the same today. Germany is the same today: It's very Christmassy in the small towns, plenty of gingerbread, mistle toe, christmas trees, etc.

But as @Soyeong helpfully points out, we must be mindful that our Lord kept the Torah, as did his followers.

There is ample support for keeping Torah, including the longest Psalm, Psalm 119, which is all about Torah. An acrostic poem, reciting the ABCs of the importance of Torah.

1. Verse 1: Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in 'the law of the Lord' (בְּתוֹרַ֥ת יְהוָֽה, b-thurth ieue, or 'ba-toraht ieue', in the Torah of Yahweh, ).
2. Verse 18: Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law (נִ֝פְלָא֗וֹת מִתּוֹרָתֶֽךָ, nphlauth m·thurth·k, or 'naflaut ma-torah-techa', things-being-marvelous from law of you).
3. Verse 29: Remove from me the way of lying (שֶׁ֭קֶר, shqr, or 'shakar', falsehood): and grant me thy law (וְֽתוֹרָתְךָ֥, u·thurth·k, or 'u-torah-techa', and·law-of·you) graciously.

(Transliteration from Scipture4all. Apostrophes are my pronunciation - Please forgive my rough transliteration )

Verse 29 is particularly noteworthy as it contrasts 'falsehood' against 'Torah', making it ever more critical to the answer the question 'What is Torah'...

Here in Sydney it's very common and popular for churches to have a dispensational view (inc. most young churches and baptistic churches) focusing heavily on the 'cross', in isolation, hyper-evangelically. Preaching repetitively about 'the cross', exaggerating it's significance overlooking the reason behind the crucifixion, i.e. the Torah, 360+ prophecies, it's parallel and timing to Exodus rituals and events, commanded by God himself...

i.e. melodramatically and morbidly over-emphasising 'Christ's suffering' and 'dying for the sins of the world', how 'no one will die for you but Christ' etc (which is horrible preaching honestly since it seems to never preach about the RISEN LORD), how 'all your sins' are 'nailed to the cross once and for all', etc. - Effectively teaching, an implied LICENSE TO SIN.

I can't stand this kind of preaching, it's very misleading. It equates the two concepts by association, equating 'crucifixion' as an absolute solution for all, all sin, all people, all things. i.e. universal atonement, or in this discussion, 'universal fulfilment of the law' for all the world.

Hence, comments earlier wondering about 'nailing' sins to the cross, etc, and how much was actually nailed to the cross, buried with Christ etc.

The motivation behind such questions is probably strongly tied to the doctrine of 'justification by faith alone' (sola fide, by faith alone)... to be be made right through 'faith' (as opposed to 'by works' - or by 'Jewish works'). --- If this is you, James 1-2 covers the insufficiency of faith without works. And these 'works' James describes relates to Torah. e.g. God's mercy, justice, liberation, of oppressed and marginalised people in particular, poor widows, orphans, and strangers (who we call 'aliens', 'asylum seekers', 'illegal immigrants', etc).

Apologies for being long-winded. Please bear with me,

The difficulty is that Scripture doesn't take such an absolute and clean cut view. It merely isolates the crucifixion as one event (passover = Exodus ritual of sacrificed lamb without blemish) in a sequence of events, and goes on to describe the unfolding of prophecy over millennia, bit by bit, according to 'seasons', 'appointed times', Moedim, dates that no one knows exactly, etc.

Hence, Paul's metaphor about 'shadow of the law' connotes length and perspective (implying time), as opposed to an abrupt 'sunset of the law'. No, not at all. The same time motif was used constantly by Paul, 'running a race', getting as much mission work & visits done as possible, etc. And salvation is described similarly also, e.g. 'Working out your salvation with fear and trembling', i.e. indicating different stages of salvation, to be ultimately confirmed by the Lord himself at the Great Judgement (Mt 7:21-23).

The Lord makes this clear by referencing both the cross (by implication) and end times prophecy (stated explicitly):

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law (τον νομον, ton nomon, the law - nominative case), or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (του νομου, tou vomou, of the law - genitive case), till all be fulfilled." (Mt. 5:18)

[Nomos (νομος) = Generic term for 'law', almost always referring to Torah / Pentateuch, in this case, distinguished from the Prophets. So, in this passage 'Torah', indeed, strictly means 'Pentateuch'. i.e. The first 5 books of Moses.]

Hence, the phrase "Till heaven and earth pass" suggests the Torah is 'eternal' but also that the Torah will lapse, as we are told there will be 'a new creation' a 'new heaven and earth' (Rev. 21.1).

How this works, I don't know. To what degree, or application, I also don't know. I'm still learning myself.

What I find interesting though is that in the phrase 'jot and tittle', a jot (Hebrew yod, like an apostrophe) represents 'the hand of God' leading the way, and a tittle is a 'thorn' at the top of the jot, much much smaller than the jot itself, similar to a serif in English font (picture Times New Roman font vs Arial) referring to the absolute perfection of God's Torah even in the tiniest parts, but also to the 'thorns and thistles' the Earth is cursed with since Adam took the fruit. Indicating that God's hand will always be involved, and that even the imperfections of this World will be used by God in his new creation... in a return to paradise and eternal sabbath rest per Creation 1, the life Adam was meant to live out eternally. Peace, paradise, and all things 'very good'.

God's eternal laws

@Soyeong When you say 'God's eternal laws', I wonder are you also implying God has 'temporal laws' ?

 

[Tone]

He accepted also the 6th day sabbath as well as the 7th day Lord's Day, continuing an Early Church practice.

What's this?

 

[bbbbbbb]

@Soyeong When you say 'God's eternal laws' are you also implying God has 'temporal laws' ?

I would venture a guess that there are a very great number here at CF who believe that God's eternal laws are limited to only the Ten Commandments. Even the Seventh Day Adventists here preach that viewpoint most vociferously.

 

[Soyeong]

@Soyeong When you say 'God's eternal laws' are you also implying God has 'temporal laws' ?

No. All of God's laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's Law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits, such the Law being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23). Jesus expressed these character traits and other fruits of the Spirit through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience the Mosaic Law, so that is what it should look like when we are in Christ and are meeting our obligation to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ, to have and to express his character traits, and by expressing God's character traits through our actions we are acting as a light testifying to the world about who He is (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Isaiah 49:6, Matthew 5:13-16). God's Law was given to teach about who He is through instructing us how to walk in His ways (Deuteronomy 10:12-13), so to love God's Law is to love who God is and to want nothing to do with God's Law is to what nothing to do with who God is. Eternal instructions for how to act in accordance with God's eternal character traits can't be ended without first ending who God is.

In regard to Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that not the least part would disappear until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished, both of which could be interpreted as referring to end times (Revelation 21:1), but I think it could be different ways of saying that it is never going to happen. For example, when Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 that he was always going to be with us until the end of the age, he was not suggesting that he was going to leave us at the end of the age, but that he was never going to leave us.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No. All of God's laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's Law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits, such the Law being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23). Jesus expressed these character traits and other fruits of the Spirit through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience the Mosaic Law, so that is what it should look like when we are in Christ and are meeting our obligation to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ, to have and to express his character traits, and by expressing God's character traits through our actions we are acting as a light testifying to the world about who He is (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Isaiah 49:6, Matthew 5:13-16). God's Law was given to teach us about who He is (Deuteronomy 10:12-13), so to love God's Law is to love who God is and to want nothing to do with God's Law is to what nothing to do with who God is. Eternal instructions for how to act in accordance with God's eternal character traits can't be ended without first ending who God is.

In regard to Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that not the least part would disappear until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished, both of which could be interpreted as referring to end times (Revelation 21:1), but I think it could be different ways of saying that it is never going to happen. For example, when Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 that he was always going to be with us until the end of the age, he was not suggesting that he was going to leave us at the end of the age, but that he was never going to leave us.

The real question is what is the relationship of the believer today to the entire Law?

 

[Soyeong]

The real question is what is the relationship of the believer today to the entire Law?

The Law is the way (Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Matthew 19:17), Jesus us the way the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Law is God's Word and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so God did not just give His Law to His people, but also sent Jesus as the living embodiment of His Law/personification of His character traits to teach us how to express them. The strength of our relationship with God is the degree that we have been made like Christ by expressing His character traits through our actions in accordance with his Law.

However, it is important to keep in mind that not every aspect of God's character can be expressed by one person, and not even Jesus stepped into the role of a judge or a Levitical priest or obeyed laws in regard to have a period or to giving birth. God's Law was given to a community and can only be obeyed by a community, so we are different parts of one body. For example, in order to obey the command to love our neighbor, we need to have a neighbor. Some laws were given only to the King, the High Priests, priests, judges, men, women, children, widows, those who are married, those with servants, those with animals, those with crops, those with tzaraat, those living in the land, strangers living among them, and to everyone.

A good portion of God's Laws were given to govern the conduct of the Levitical priesthood, which were only intended to be obeyed by Levites, and even with the Levites there were different roles, so they were set apart and teach us about God's holiness. Even then, the Levitical priests still taught the community and us how we should live as kingdom of priests (1 Peter 2:9-10) through teaching us how to put the character of God on display, how to help people navigate their atonement, how to intercede on behalf of others, and how to distribute resources to those in need.

So determining how the Law applies to us today is a matter of careful study, prayer, and leading of the Spirit, though it should be done with the attitude of looking for reasons why we get to have the delight and the privilege of putting the character of God on display rather than the attitude of looking for reasons to avoid following God's guidance.

 

[HARK!]

Was/is Yashua ha Mashiach Torah (the Law) Incarnate?

(CLV) Jn 14:6
Jesus is saying to him, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me.

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THE WAY
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(CLV) Ex 18:20
You will warn them with the statutes and the laws and make known to them the way in which they shall go and the deeds which they shall do.

(CLV) Dt 10:12
And now, Israel, what is Yahweh your Elohim asking of you, save to fear Yahweh your Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love Him and to serve Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul,

(CLV) Jos 22:5
But observe meticulously to keep the instruction and the law that M woses the servant of Yahweh enjoined on you: to love Yahweh your Elohim and to walk in all His ways, to observe His instructions, to cling to Him and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

(CLV) 1Ki 2:3
You will keep the charge of Yahweh your Elohim to walk in His ways, to observe His statutes and His instructions, His ordinances and His testimonies as written in the law of Moses, so that you may act intelligently in all that you do and everywhere that you turn around,

(CLV) Ps 119:1
Happy are those whose way is flawless, Who are walking in the law of Yahweh.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Mal 2:8
Yet you withdraw from the way. You cause many to stumble at the law. You ruin the covenant of Levi, says Yahweh of hosts.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

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THE TRUTH
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(CLV) Ps 119:142
Your righteousness is eonian righteousness, And Your law is truth.

(CLV) Mal 2:6
The law of truth, it came to be in his mouth, and iniquity, it was not found on his lips. In peace and in uprightness he walked with Me, and turned many back from depravity.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ro 2:20
a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.

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THE LIFE
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(CLV) Jb 33:30
To restore his soul from the pit, To enlighten him with the light of the living.

(CLV) Ps 36:9
For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light shall we see light.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life

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THE LIGHT
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(CLV) Jn 8:12
Again, then, Jesus speaks to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world. He who is following Me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life."

(CLV) Jb 24:13
They are among those revolting against the light; They neither recognize its ways Nor dwell in its tracks.

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 51:4
Attend to Me, My people, And, My folk, give ear to Me! For a law shall go forth from Me, And My judgment for a light of the peoples.

(CLV) 2Co 6:14
Do not become diversely yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? Or what communion has light with darkness?

(CLV) 1Jn 1:7
Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin.

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THE WORD
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(CLV) Jn 1:14
And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.


Yahshua is the living Torah!

If we walk in his ways; we walk in the Torah.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yahshua is the living Torah!

If we walk in his ways; we walk in the Torah.

Here is the problem I have with that statement...

The Torah is an imperfect attempt to enunciate the ways of God's heart to give guidance until the perfect (Jesus) comes.

Now that He has perfectly represented the heart of God among us, the imperfect Torah is no longer needed because He Himself in in our hearts.

So to me you have it backwards.

Jesus is not the living Torah...

Yes He is the Word.

No He is not the Torah.

 

[HARK!]

the imperfect Torah

Psalm 19:8

Complete Jewish Bible

8 (7) The Torah of Adonai is perfect,
restoring the inner person.
The instruction of Adonai is sure,
making wise the thoughtless.

is no longer needed because He Himself in in our hearts.

(CLV) Ga 3:24
So that the law has become our escort to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.

"Has become" is the present perfect tense.

 

[TexFire316]

"Judaism believes that the Torah was created before the world, thus historic Judaism came to accept that the Word (The Torah) can be legitimately viewed as a form of incarnation. Some Jewish scholars will argue that even the nation of Israel is an incarnational process, and that Ezekiel 37 speaking of the “dry bones” addresses this."
"The Incarnation from a Jewish Perspective" | Chosen People Ministries

Was/is Yashua ha Mashiach Torah (the Law) Incarnate?

In what way has the Law been done away with?

In what way was the Law Incarnate forsaken by the Father?

If the Law was forsaken, killed, and buried...was it/He not also resurrected?

Where is the Law now?

I have to challenge that Judaism can be boxed up in those beliefs. They are just as mixed up in what they believe as modern christian believers. Of which I am one.
The Law of the Father is in effect today as it was during the life of the Messiah, and the life of Moses. It (the Law) does not, nor could not save us, it proves to us how futile it is to believe that we can atone for ourselves. Today, we can choose to disobey God, but we have to remember that there is a price to be paid for our rebellion. Of course we will fail in our obediance, sometimes every day, but we have a mediator, the Mediator.