Torah Incarnate

[Shimshon]

Psalms 1:1-2


Jeremiah 17:7-8

Psalms 32:1-2

Jeremiah 3:12-16

 

[ace of hearts]

Really...you don't see the relationship between YHWH and His Torah?

Sure I see the relationship. Does that mean the whole world is subject to the Torah? Jeremiah says no just like Moses did.

 

[Soyeong]

Sure I see the relationship. Does that mean the whole world is subject to the Torah? Jeremiah says no just like Moses did.

Where did they so no?

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is revealed through God's Law. Gentiles are either under God's Law and are obligated to refrain from sin and are not under God's Law, have no obligation to refrain from sin, and have never needed Jesus to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.

However, God is sovereign, so all Gentiles are under God's Law and are obligated to obey it and to refrain from sin regardless of whether or not they are in a covenant relationship with Him. For example, God judged the world with the Flood for their sins, God will judge the world in Revelation, God threatened to judge Nineveh, and God judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their Lawless deeds (2 Peter 2:6-8). They didn’t get the option to choose whether or not they wanted to be under God’s Law and neither do we. The choice we do get to make is whether or not we are going to heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey.

 

[ace of hearts]

Where did they so no?

Don't you have access to the OT? You do seem to be a specialist in the law and prophets.

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is revealed through God's Law. Gentiles are either under God's Law and are obligated to refrain from sin and are not under God's Law, have no obligation to refrain from sin, and have never needed Jesus to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.

What does Paul say in Romans chap 2-8? Doesn't that agree with Moses? Please don't pretend you 've no idea what I'm talking about.

However, God is sovereign, so all Gentiles are under God's Law and are obligated to obey it and to refrain from sin regardless of whether or not they are in a covenant relationship with Him. For example, God judged the world with the Flood for their sins, God will judge the world in Revelation, God threatened to judge Nineveh, and God judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their Lawless deeds (2 Peter 2:6-8). They didn’t get the option to choose whether or not they wanted to be under God’s Law and neither do we. The choice we do get to make is whether or not we are going to heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey.

What law exactly are gentiles under? Is it the law given only to Israel? If so, how? You must show how non Israeli are subject to a law not given to them. Was murder sin before that law? Was adultery sin before that law? The law given to Israel didn't invent sin. Paul says the body of flesh isn't subject to the law.

 

[Neogaia777]

You know what Paul could have said...? How bout, "All sin is lawful for me, but no sin is ever good for anybody, ever, period, end of story" "so don't even try to think that or otherwise"... (maybe)...?

Does not ever produce good things, ever, or ever makes for a very easy, or comfortable or satisfying or content, or comfortable, or smooth ride in life, ever... Sin will get in the way of that, all of the time... Get in the way of what you really want, and what God knows you really want/need/desire, ect, and wants to give you those things, but sin can cause some problems with that sometimes...

But, does it affect ones eternal destination or Salvation, or place in the afterlife...? I'm not so sure...? But I wonder if it ever really ever does for the ones God has selected or chosen, cause those ones seem to be sealed no matter what...

God Bless!

 

[Shimshon]

Was murder sin before that law? Was adultery sin before that law? The law given to Israel didn't invent sin.

Good questions.

Romans 5
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

Sin was in the world before the law was given..... BUT is was not charged against anyone. Death reigned, but it was not even charged against Adam except to die. Being righteous but allowing sin to enter the world he was not charged, there was no judge set in place to hear the case. The law was brought in to increase sins, so that grace would increase even more. So just as sin was the focus of the law, grace is the focus of Yeshua's message. One magnified sins and led to Yeshua, the other gracefully removes our sins, and releases our charge against us under the law.

 

[Neogaia777]

Good questions.

Romans 5
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

Sin was in the world before the law was given..... BUT is was not charged against anyone. Death reigned, but it was not even charged against Adam except to die. Being righteous but allowing sin to enter the world he was not charged, there was no judge set in place to hear the case. The law was brought in to increase sins, so that grace would increase even more. So just as sin was the focus of the law, grace is the focus of Yeshua's message. One magnified sins and led to Yeshua, the other gracefully removes our sins, and releases our charge against us under the law.

And the NC is going back to the first covenant(s) in Genesis that existed before the law, where "sin was not charged against them" as far as perhaps their "eternal outcome or destination" was concerned, if they forsook the law covenant, for that covenant, maybe...

But, all that sin was said to have happen due to only "one act of unrighteousness or the transgression of Adam" only and all other sin after that was directly because of that (Adam's sin) (only)...

"Which is why by one act of righteousness or obedience by Jesus Christ, (the second and said to be last Adam or God-Man), anyway, "Which is why by one act of righteousness or obedience by Jesus Christ,to both the letter of the law and the Spirit of it that existed long before that, even all the way back to Adam, Jesus Christ did and obeyed and fulfilled as only he could or can, in order to rectify or fix or solve or resolve (or reverse?) the problem or situation...

We are under the same covenant right now as existed in Genesis, and while sin is not charged against us, death still reigns right now, and sin has it's consequences or power right now because of that, in this life, but may or may not have any bearing upon or for the believer in Jesus Christ, after that, or in the the next life, IDK..? I don't think I know and I don't think I can say, and I don't if anyone really can either, especially about another or one another...

God Bless!

 

[Soyeong]

Don't you have access to the OT? You do seem to be a specialist in the law and prophets.

Indeed I do, and that's not what it says. If you make a claim about what the Bible says, then you should be able to quote it.

What does Paul say in Romans chap 2-8? Doesn't that agree with Moses? Please don't pretend you 've no idea what I'm talking about.

Romans 2:6-8 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

These verses are fully in agreement with Moses and in favor of those doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law and are against those who do not obey it. In Romans 2:13, only the doers of the Law will be justified. In Romans 2:26, the way to tell that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6)

What law exactly are gentiles under? Is it the law given only to Israel? If so, how? You must show how non Israeli are subject to a law not given to them. Was murder sin before that law? Was adultery sin before that law? The law given to Israel didn't invent sin. Paul says the body of flesh isn't subject to the law.

God's Law refers to the Law that God has given, which everyone is under because God is sovereign, and I listed some examples where Gentiles were under God's Law and were obligated to obey it.

You are so focused on whom the Law was given to that you've lost sight of whom it was given by. There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalm 103:7, and many others, so the Law was not given as instructions for how to live as a Jew, but as instructions for how to express God's character traits, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. Jesus expressed these character traits through his actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is what it should look like when he is living in us. Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ, to have and to express the same character traits, so there is no sense in Gentiles wanting to be made like him while wanting nothing to do with what he was like.

So while the Law was given to Israel, it was never intended only for Israel, but rather it was given to Israel in part so that they would be equipped to be a light to the nations and bless them through teaching them to repent from theirs sins and how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His Law (Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:6). In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction from the nations of seeing Israel's obedience to God's Law was to marvel and how great and wise God is. In other words, the Law was intention to be used as a tool to evangelize the nations and draw them into a covenant relationship with God. There is no sense in a Gentile wanting to become a follower of God while refusing to follow the instructions that He gave for how to follow Him.

Indeed, there are many examples of God's laws being given throughout Genesis prior to when they were given. Sin was in the world before the Law was given (Romans 5:13), so there was was nothing that became sinful when the Mosaic Covenant was made or that ceased being sinful after it has become obsolete, but rather the Law revealed what has always been and will always be sinful. So if under the New Covenant you believe that we should still refrain from what God has revealed to be sin, then you should believe that we should still obey His Law.

 

[Tone]

Sure I see the relationship. Does that mean the whole world is subject to the Torah? Jeremiah says no just like Moses did.

Depends if you're just a subject or a blessed son.

A subjects groan under burdens; sons know that the Father gives them every good thing and they delight in them.

 

[Tone]

Where did they so no?

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is revealed through God's Law. Gentiles are either under God's Law and are obligated to refrain from sin and are not under God's Law, have no obligation to refrain from sin, and have never needed Jesus to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness.

However, God is sovereign, so all Gentiles are under God's Law and are obligated to obey it and to refrain from sin regardless of whether or not they are in a covenant relationship with Him. For example, God judged the world with the Flood for their sins, God will judge the world in Revelation, God threatened to judge Nineveh, and God judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their Lawless deeds (2 Peter 2:6-8). They didn’t get the option to choose whether or not they wanted to be under God’s Law and neither do we. The choice we do get to make is whether or not we are going to heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey.

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Is this guy lawless, because he breaks the Torah, or because he doesn't believe (to say the very least) in Messiah?

 

[Tone]

Depends if you're just a subject or a blessed son.

A subjects groan under burdens; sons know that the Father gives them every good thing and they delight in them.

I double posted this to make sure my update is seen.

 

[Shimshon]

Depends if you're just a subject or a blessed son.

I'm sorry, but the relationship with God and his children is not dependent on the law. It's dependent on faith in the grace Yeshua offers. Romans 4:13

 

[Tone]

I'm sorry, but the relationship with God and his children is not dependent on the law. It's dependent on faith in the grace Yeshua offers. Romans 4:13

What I am saying is that how we treat the law depends on what kind of relationship we have with the Father. So, we are in agreement. The relationship does not depend on the law, but the law does depend on the relationship.

 

[Soyeong]

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Is this guy lawless, because he breaks the Torah, or because he doesn't believe (to say the very least) in Messiah?

The Torah is God's Word and the Messiah is God's Word made flesh, so that's just two different ways of asking the same question.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm sorry, but the relationship with God and his children is not dependent on the law. It's dependent on faith in the grace Yeshua offers. Romans 4:13

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law and in Psalm 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so you can't removed grace and faith from the Law. The Law is God's instructions for how to grow in a relationship with Him. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, so we are not made righteous by our obedience to the Law, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are made righteous therefore also requires us to do what is righteous in obedience to God's Law.

 

[ace of hearts]

Depends if you're just a subject or a blessed son.

A subjects groan under burdens; sons know that the Father gives them every good thing and they delight in them.

I'm a son, not a subject nor a stranger.

 

[ace of hearts]

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Is this guy lawless, because he breaks the Torah, or because he doesn't believe (to say the very least) in Messiah?

Now that's a sneaky way to falsely accuse another, especially one who's not under or obligated to the Torah (covenant law given only to Israel).

 

[ace of hearts]

I'm sorry, but the relationship with God and his children is not dependent on the law. It's dependent on faith in the grace Yeshua offers. Romans 4:13

Right on!!!

 

[ace of hearts]

What I am saying is that how we treat the law depends on what kind of relationship we have with the Father. So, we are in agreement. The relationship does not depend on the law, but the law does depend on the relationship.

Don't get ya here.

 

[Tone]

Now that's a sneaky way to falsely accuse another, especially one who's not under or obligated to the Torah (covenant law given only to Israel).

What in the world are you at now? Are you saying I accused somebody of something?