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Tools far pre date man, evolution theory kicked in face

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davedajobauk

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I wonder who they think they can blame the tools on? Aliens? animals? Ha

The simple answer is that their imaginary dates are nonsense.

‘Predate humans’: Stone tools made 3.3mn years ago found in Kenya


oldest-stone-tools-discovery.si.jpg

http://rt.com/news/260625-oldest-stone-tools-humans/


I don't know what your question (if-any) is

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/human-origins/modern-human-evolution/when/index.html

Even the 'Apes' use tools, instinctively
and 'Man' has a need 'to tool himself up'
 
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Al T

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Perhaps the real question is one of perception?

It's true than no other species has built factories, but that doesn't negate their ability to turn an object into a rudimentary tool, does it?

I can imagine though that for those in the community who believe in Young Earth Creationism
this would be an issue....

The simple fact is that we'll never know the origin of these tools precisely - and that humans are the planets supreme tool users. (Unless there's Aliens knocking about somewhere)
 
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The Cadet

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I feel the need to point out that Russia Today is about as reliable a news source as Infowars or NaturalNews. Not a place you want to be getting your information. Not that I'm aware of any particular bias with regards to evolution, but their reporting is typically shoddy and low on details and sources.

Anyways. What's the story here? Well, we've found rudimentary stone tools in strata dated to 3.3 million BCE.

If you read the coverage of this news from The Houston Chronicle, also known as "An actual newspaper" and/or "A source whose journalists aren't so asleep at the wheel that they'd invite Liam Scheff onto the program and then let him lie without fact-checking him even once", they offer some useful context:

Since then, conventional wisdom in human evolutionary studies has supposed that the origins of knapping stone tools by our ancestors – that is, chipping away flakes from a stone to make a tool – were linked to the emergence of the genus Homo. The premise was that our lineage alone took the cognitive leap of hitting stones together to strike off sharp flakes, and that this was the foundation of our evolutionary success. Scientists thought this technological development was tied to climate change and the spread of savanna grasslands; our ancestors innovated with new tools to help them survive in an evolving landscape.

Over the last few decades, however, subsequent discoveries pushed back the date for the earliest stone tools to 2.6 million years ago (Ma) and the earliest fossils attributable to early Homo to only 2.4-2.3 Ma. By necessity, there’s been increasing openness to the possibility of tool manufacture before 2.6 Ma and by hominins other than Homo.

A series of papers published in rapid succession in early 2015 have solidified these ideas into an emerging paradigm shift in paleoanthropology: the fossil record of the genus Homo now extends back to 2.8 Ma in the Ethiopian Afar; cranial and post-cranial diversity in early Homo is much wider that previously thought, already evincing several distinct lineages by 2 Ma; and Australopithecus africanus and other Pleistocene hominins, traditionally considered not to have made stone tools, have a human-like trabecular bone pattern in their hand bones that’s consistent with tool use.

In other words, this was not exactly a bolt from the blue. Furthermore, you see passages like this:

While it is tempting to assume that these earliest artifacts were made by members of our genus Homo, we urge caution. It’s extremely rare to be able to pinpoint what fossil species made which stone tools through most of prehistory, unless there was only one hominin species living at the time, or until we find a fossil skeleton still holding a stone tool in its hand.

The key here: we aren't sure. We don't know exactly what was responsible for these tools. Some early hominin is likely (indeed, at the same dig site, they found Kenyanthropus platyops, so there's a clue right there), but we can't be sure quite yet. We also can't be quite sure what the stones were used for.

While the Lomekwi knappers certainly made sharp-edged flakes from stone cores, the tools' size and the battering marks on their surfaces suggest they were doing something different as well. And we know they were in a more wooded environment with access to various plant resources. We’re conducting experimental work to help reconstruct how the tools were used.

There are numerous interesting questions that this raises, questions that require further research to fully understand. And here's where we see the difference in attitude between a scientist and a creationist.

The scientist looks at this and rubs his hands together with glee, thinking, "Oh boy, I get to solve a mystery and learn more about the world!"
The creationist looks at this and rubs his hands together with glee, thinking, "Oh boy, I have no idea how this could have happened, therefore evolution must be wrong!"

No. Sorry. Anyone seriously wondering whether this has any impact on the status of evolution, spend five minutes and shoot an email to anyone involved with this dig and ask them whether they believe that this contradicts common descent in any significant way. I guarantee you that they will say no.
 
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lesliedellow

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It grabs me as a sick joke. Only inside your mind do those exist. You would have more credibility saying Sasquatch did it! At least thousands of people claim to have seen those. Always nice to see evolution get one right in the chops.

Dad has got a "logic" which is all his own. The only thing the existence of those tools establishes is that Australopithecus afarensis, or some other of our ancestor species, was smarter than previously imagined.
 
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Al T

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I always find it interesting to see how the 'belief' in one thing can override the 'belief' in another rather than them compliment each other.
Dad believes what he believes and nothing anyone says will change that. I kind of respect that - I don't understand it, but that's a different point.

PS RT isn't a valid source of journalism? Shock-horror!
 
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davedajobauk

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LOL

I had some chuckles (here and there) as I read 'down' this page :)

Prehistoric 'tool-making'... was maybe, not widely known to us ~before, this latest discovery
which will affirm, that at-least, one, ancient 'hominin' (his family) had such ability [wisdom]

It may, just so-happen (could we keep an open mind, on this revelationary discovery)
that this 'early-inventor's discoveries' simply, took a few tens of thousands of years, to catch-on
ie: to a time, where such-practice, is so-much more commonplace

I would guess, that the EVIDENCE for even-earlier tool-making, is OUT-THERE (somewhere)
just awaiting discovery / needing only, the erosion of covering layers of, history to become 'fact'


dave
 
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nobdysfool

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You laugh, but baboons have been known to fling rocks at humans... one day they'll take us by surprise.

It's not about a species having definitely existed, it's a theory. Like most things to do with ancient history and the tiny little remnants we find. Who knows, if the world still exists far enough into the future that society as we know it is no longer remembered, remnants of our lives may cause the exact same discussions.


If those far in the future archaeologists are anything like the ones of today, anything they find will be immediately assumed to have "some religious significance".
 
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davedajobauk

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No, what I meant to say was that the mountain of evidence supporting evolution is conclusive. It's just that the creationists keep trying to chip away at it with nothing more than ice picks.

Yes, I 'kind-of' agree with that 'thinking too'
I mean, that is the chronology of 'everything' that is the most confusing (puzzling)


:thumbsup:
 
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davedajobauk

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Great so the dates mean that the tools do not fit into the evolutionary timescale posited by science.

It is precisely the evidence and your beliefs that come into question here. If tools from clovis man happened to be a bad fit for your dating dreamscape I guess you would do the same thing. Look for monkeys that dunnit. Sad.


I guess, that Area 51 would quickly swallow the facts, if 'archeologists' were to discover
ray guns and hover scooters even-deeper

LOL
 
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MiniEmu

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If those far in the future archaeologists are anything like the ones of today, anything they find will be immediately assumed to have "some religious significance".

Naturally.
It's one of the little known joys of uncovering artefacts from long gone civilisations, wondering if it could possibly be some kind of religious artefact and how that would have fitted into what is thought to be known about the culture of the time.

Anyone who happens to be an archaeologist, I know it's a little more work and serious interpretation than I'm making it out to be.
 
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davedajobauk

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Getting down to the 'Nitty-Gritty'

The 'tool'(s) must have been buried (after-use) in soil (dated, via: scientific tests /processes)
that was itself subsequently buried by much later inundations, of soils
[chicken and the egg]
Produced by 'hands' of some creature, for intelligent purpose

Humanoids (the remains of) have been found interred (by time) in soils that have long-since
become rock that have been calculated to be 6 - 7 million years old

So, let us take the 'written word', as recordings, of, the peoples then-living, at the time that
writing was invented......and agree, that 'men' have walked upon this planet
for many millions of years, before writing, then also became 'a tool'

:)

dave
 
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dad

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This is an example of not being able to see the forest for all the trees.


I don't see monkeys constructing a tool making factory and producing tools. They may ram a stick in a tree for fruit or something...
 
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dad

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dad

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Perhaps the real question is one of perception?

It's true than no other species has built factories, but that doesn't negate their ability to turn an object into a rudimentary tool, does it?

I can imagine though that for those in the community who believe in Young Earth Creationism
this would be an issue....

The simple fact is that we'll never know the origin of these tools precisely - and that humans are the planets supreme tool users. (Unless there's Aliens knocking about somewhere)
I know the origin. Man made them. Why not face it? Are you that desperate to align with so called science that you lose contact with the obvious?
 
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dad

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No, what I meant to say was that the mountain of evidence supporting evolution is conclusive. It's just that the creationists keep trying to chip away at it with nothing more than ice picks.
All the evidence for evolving agrees with the bible and started at creation with the created kinds. Someone sold you a bridge real cheap I see.
 
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