Todays State of Israel Is Not Final Return

BABerean2 said:

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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So, if you are claiming the physical land promises along with all that, when are you moving to Israel? After all, as a good Berean who searches the scripture, you must surely know that YHWH declares that His name is profaned when the seed of Abraham are not living in the land, right? That is very clear in scripture with no ambiguity.

Nah... when I became a believer, I did not throw away my sense for good business. The promises thru the Messiah are far greater than the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The physical, earthly promises are still retained by the Hebrews. That is made clear several times in Paul's letter to the Romans. And Galations does not contradict that. We are heirs...... according to the promise... singular.... We are not heirs of the physical promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regarding the land. We are grafted in and therefore the promise (singular also) to Abraham of being the father os many nations is validated. Don't confuse promises.

Copperhead said:

So, if you are claiming the physical land promises along with all that, when are you moving to Israel? After all, as a good Berean who searches the scripture, you must surely know that YHWH declares that His name is profaned when the seed of Abraham are not living in the land, right? That is very clear in scripture with no ambiguity.

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The "heir" to the land is found below.


Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

He is the seed of Abraham found in Matthew 1:1, and Galatians 3:16.

Davy said:

Temple Mount Faithful sacrifices lamb in pre-Passover ritual

Passover sacrifices in Jerusalem by orthodox Jews like the temple mount faithful have been going on for decades. 2017 was not the first time. My link shows even one of Jerusalem's Chief Rabbi Arye Stern supporting it.

1 Chronicles 11 reveals a remnant of the ten northern tribes migrated south and joined with Judah in the days of Jeroboam, because they refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship in the north. So even back then we know there was a remnant of the ten tribes that joined with Judah and became Jews. Luke 2 shows Anna of the tribe of Asher who prophesied of Jesus and saw Him. Yet she was a Jew because of living in Judea among the Jews. Even strangers living in Judea took the name Jew.

So I wouldn't be surprised that when the kings of Assyria began their attacks on the northern ten tribes, that some of them left the north then also, and joined with Judah in the south, and became Jews.

But that does not... mean all 12 tribes of Israel were together back then, nor now. 2 Kings 17 shows the majority of the ten northern tribes taken out of the holy land by the Assyrians. The small remnants of northern tribes that left and joined with Judah cannot supplant the larger majority of northern ten tribe Israelties which did not... join with Judah.

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Actually, there are many accounts in the history books of the Tanakh of differing instances of those of the northern tribes moving and joining with the southern tribes. Even one account that was 100 years after the Assyrian conquest of the north. Archeological evidence seems to indicate that Sargon of Assyria only removed about 25,500 Hebrews from the north. He did bring in many from other lands to commingle and water down the Hebrew genealogy.

When Ezra brought his group back from Babylon, he called them Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. When Nehemiah brought back his group, he called them Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. Since these guys were eye witnesses of the events, it would be hubris on our part to say that they didn't know what they were talking about and all the tribes were not represented in the return.

BABerean2 said:

The "heir" to the land is found below.


Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

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True! Messiah is the ultimate heir and will one day rule over the land as a possession. Actually, the land is and always has been God's possession.

But the Kingdom of God is not the physical land. Again, you are mixing things.

Copperhead said:

So, if you are claiming the physical land promises along with all that, when are you moving to Israel? After all, as a good Berean who searches the scripture, you must surely know that YHWH declares that His name is profaned when the seed of Abraham are not living in the land, right? That is very clear in scripture with no ambiguity.

Nah... when I became a believer, I did not throw away my sense for good business. The promises thru the Messiah are far greater than the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The physical, earthly promises are still retained by the Hebrews. That is made clear several times in Paul's letter to the Romans. And Galations does not contradict that. We are heirs...... according to the promise... singular.... We are not heirs of the physical promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regarding the land. We are grafted in and therefore the promise (singular also) to Abraham of being the father os many nations is validated. Don't confuse promises.

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Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The Son is the heir of all things.

All things includes everything and excludes nothing.


2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

All the promises are affirmed in the Son.

All the promises include all and exclude none.

SeventyOne said:

Did you read that verse in context? One, it has nothing to do with the OP. Two, these were people trying to find their place on the registered roles to prove they belonged to Israel, but they weren't on the list. The very existence of that list contradicts your point in itself.

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I was responding to your post, not the OP.
You asked "Why is there the insertion of the requirement that the Jews have to know their individual tribal affiliation?"

I reminded you it is inserted because it's BIBLICALLY MANDATED by the terms of the Covenant.

So, Where is the list today?

& Where will you find the priests today who will Identify the rest? Ezra 2:63?

The covenant terms are clear... if you can not PROVE your unadulterated, Hebrew Genealogy, the Law of Moses considered you "defiled" and Without place in the covenant people.

Pretty simple.

Ken Rank said:

One had to come to know he is messiah in order to deny him. If we have NO UNDERSTANDING of something, then our comments concerning it mean nothing. But, you go ahead and judge them unto condemnation... that's God's will, right?

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Nne does not have to know Jesus is the messiah in order to deny he is the messiah.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, refusing to confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Anyone who says Jesus is not the messiah or the messiah has not come is a deciever and an Antichrist. That includes those men you claim are men of God.

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son.

I find it interesting you say those who reject Christ are of God and you tell someone on this board who believes Jesus, they need to repent.

Your backward.

shilohsfoal said:

Nne does not have to know Jesus is the messiah in order to deny he is the messiah.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, refusing to confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Anyone who says Jesus is not the messiah or the messiah has not come is a deciever and an Antichrist. That includes those men you claim are men of God.

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son.

I find it interesting you say those who reject Christ are of God and you tell someone on this board who believes Jesus, they need to repent.

Your backward.

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I think there is a possibility that there are many anti-christ and always has been . He does the most damage however as a professing christian while commiting the acts of his father the devil while wearing a cloak of religion . It is not lost on me that according to scriptures that christians are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers and yet in the USA , it is normal . I am not sure there is an individual anti-christ but if he is ..I am confident that he is a "christian ." ..If the church is the "body" of Jesus of Nazareth on earth ( the body which Saul/Paul persecuted ) , then why is not the anti-christ a "body" of false believers following a "jesus " which is nothing like Jesus ? Israel was often referred to as an individual ..Jacob , etc. Why can not the "man" of sin represent humanism both secular and religious humanism which exalts man above God ...Satan is not an atheist but satan does savor the things that be of man and not the things that be of God ..Ask Simon Peter . Satan is a humanist . The rights of man .

NeedyFollower said:

I think there is a possibility that there are many anti-christ and always has been . He does the most damage however as a professing christian while commiting the acts of his father the devil while wearing a cloak of religion . It is not lost on me that according to scriptures that christians are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers and yet in the USA , it is normal . I am not sure there is an individual anti-christ but if he is ..I am confident that he is a "christian ." ..If the church is the "body" of Jesus of Nazareth on earth ( the body which Saul/Paul persecuted ) , then why is not the anti-christ a "body" of false believers following a "jesus " which is nothing like Jesus ? Israel was often referred to as an individual ..Jacob , etc. Why can not the "man" of sin represent humanism both secular and religious humanism which exalts man above God ...Satan is not an atheist but satan does savor the things that be of man and not the things that be of God ..Ask Simon Peter . Satan is a humanist . The rights of man .

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1 John 2:22 Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son.

Have you ever once heard a Christian say Jesus isn't the Christ or Jesus isn't the messiah?

Think about what your saying.

Biblewriter said:

The prophesied return of Israel is repeatedly stated to be a return of all Israel, not just of the Jews. Isaiah 66 makes it very clear that this return will take place after Messiah returns, not before.

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Hi the Jews have to be there and then flee again after the abomination of desolation and the serious persecution comes against them. So both now and then regathering are prophesied.

TribulationSigns said:

never said about separated into two kingdoms. I am talking about one holy nation, one Kingdom, One Olive Tree in Christ, making up of both Jews and Gentiles. Not the reunification of the physical nation in the Middle East for ethnic Jews according to their "tribes."

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What I understand of what you are saying - a new entity of Israel, made up of Jews and Gentiles. That's your position.

But that is not what Ezekiel 37 is saying. Gentiles are not in the picture. It is reuniting of the sons of Jacob.

The names on the two sticks are going back to Genesis to paint a picture of when Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers at Judah's suggestion. And were reunited again. Because God made it happen.

Likewise, the splitting of the tribes for other reasons over time - they would be reunited into one nation - not two nations - of the descendants of Jacob - just as Joseph, Judah, and their brothers were - to no longer the northern and southern kingdoms. Has nothing to do with gentiles. Nothing to do with the church.

That part of the prophecy in Ezekiel 37 has happened. And we can see everyday in the news. And on the maps.

Davy said:

My post is in NO WAY anti-Semitic. You are only trying to use that as a political tool.

I have had enough discussions already with orthodox Jews and even Messianic Jews, who both believe Israel's restoration is happening today, as they 'promote' the idea that all twelve tribes of Israel are returning, which is not true.

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Based on your definitions it might not be true, but why do you assume only your definitions or what fits into your own bias is the only truth? I have something I can share with you that might fill in some gaps. But I am not posting it openly. You are welcome to write me privately, or not. Up to you.

Davy said:

Which is basically what my OP stated. So why did you try and dump on me in your prior post?

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Definitions. Yeshua is not returning for a bride that is scattered all over the earth, he is returning for ONE united bride. We read prophecy and we can snap our fingers in a cadence thinking everything happens on top of the other... BAM BAM BAM! But, often times one thing happens and then time passes. Look at Abraham... part of what was promised to him STILL has not happened yet. There is a gathering BEFORE messiah comes. And even before that? A drawing together of God's people, learning to live in mutual respect and understanding.

Consider Ezek. 36:16-17. There you have Ezekiel taking the two sticks (two different people groups) and in English it says he "joins them in one hand." But the word for "join" in that verse (17) is qarav which means "to draw near." In other words, Ezekiel takes the two and draws them near to one another in one hand. They remain unique, one doesn't become the other UNTIL the next two verses (18-19) where we see GOD make them echad (one) in His hand. So we are drawn near but remain who and what we are until God does the final work.... but we are ALREADY drawn near when this happens.

Blessings.

Davy said:

Are you saying an unbelieving Jew can be saved WITHOUT belief on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ???

If so, then why are you here on a CHRISTIAN forum?

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When did I say that? I quoted Zech 12:10 to somebody else already on this forum. All I am saying is that the timetable WE put on certain verses isn't in those verses. John 3:16 I would argue, show Yeshua (Jesus) as the one door... but what John 3:16 doesn't say is that you have to believe right this second, the first time you hear, the second time... the 10. It doesn't say anything like that. When a person's heart opens to the deeper truth of God is between THEM AND GOD not you, them and God.

That said.... if I am waiting for messiah to come and gather his people, establish a time of peace, rule and reign from David's throne (etc.) and that is what my Orthodox Jewish brother is also waiting for... then what is it that really separates us? The answer is the word "again." That's it... one word... I believe Yeshua came as Messiah ben Yosef the suffering servant and is coming AGAIN as Messiah ben David the conquering King. They are looking for Messiah ben David and will learn he is ALSO Messiah ben Joseph. So, we are both looking for the same guy... they just don't realize (yet) that he was here already. They will...

Davy said:

That is for the day of the Lord timing, on the day of Jesus' return. It has yet to happen. See what Paul taught in Romans 11 when the fullness of the Gentiles is up, that is when God will remove the blindness He put upon Israel in part (Jews), and then the unbelieving Jews will no longer be deceived and will come to Jesus. Because they have yet... as a majority, to come to Jesus, it shows that Zech.12:10 Scripture is still yet to be fulfilled.

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Romans 9 (esp. verses 19 on) is quoting Hosea and Isaiah verses that deal with the non-Jewish parts of Israel that are in the nations and he is dealing with them coming home. That theme continues and Romans 11 makes much more sense when you use "nations" for ethnos which Young's Literal and others have done. "Fullness of the nations" is melo hagoyim in Hebrew... which is Ephraim's blessing in Genesis 48:19. Romans is talking about us, not the Jews!

Davy said:

Warning:

There's a false teaching spread among the Churches today involving the return of Jews back to the holy land and modern state of Israel. One must understand how the unbelieving orthodox Jews are seeing their return, as they are deceived into believing God is re-establishing their kingdom of old again today.

Today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem already have the materials ready to build another temple and start up the old covenant worship again. Their Sandhedrin has started up again, and they have the temple articles made, and have been drafting Levitical priests for the temple duties. All that is not some working of a few mad men. It is pointing to Bible prophecy for the end of this world.

Christ's Church is not to fall away to this deception that is upon today's Jews.

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What do you know about orthodox Jewish debate? Are you a Jew? If not, then it's none of your business. That's what an Israeli hasidim would tell you.

The rubbish you're promulgating is nothing less than anti-semitic bovine excrement. You know nothing of which you write.

How do Orthodox Jews 'see their return' to Israel? You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out. They make aliyah. That is how they see it.

Hasidim, as well as the other citizens of Israel, work, eat, sleep, pay taxes, and vote for their representatives in the Knesset - and then some. Israel is a functioning RENEWED Jewish state. They've got a flag and everything. ARE YOU BLIND? Or perhaps you are so inflamed with false pseudo-Christian dogma (Replacement Theology) that you can't or won't see the working of the hand of God.

I've heard and read about rebuilding the temple for years. Mostly this is a con fostered by evangelical Christian roaming preachers to suck extra donations out of the pockets of gullible believers. These persons are parasites upon the body of Christ and ought not be given any credence at all. I first heard the rebuilding story forty years ago. There still isn't a temple is there? Do you know why? There are major problems with the idea.

First of all if a third temple, referred to prophetically as Ezekiel's temple, is to be constructed it must be built on the exact same location where the first two were built; Solomon's temple & Herod's temple (the one Jesus visited). That location would be the City of David NOT the temple mount.

Unfortunately, there is considerable debate by Israelis as to whether the temple mount is appropriate or not - despite archeological evidence pointing to the City of David. The debate rages on while nothing is actually accomplished.

Muslims claim all of the temple mount as their own sacred ground. In the days of Jesus, the area was used to house several Roman cohorts. Each Roman cohort was about 500 men. Ft. Antonia, also located on the temple mount, is much too small to have housed Roman cohorts as well as their support facilities and animals, yet that is the modern assumption of its function. Look at a map. It's too small. The Romans used the entire temple mount for their purposes. Go there and look. At the base of the walls there are large amounts of ancient relics (garbage tossed over the walls by Roman soldiers.) The temple mount was owned and operated by gentiles, not Jews. It still is.

Consult scripture for validation of the location. Take a look at Google maps too. The City of David is NOT within the boundary of the old city - Old Jerusalem. It's next to the Gihon spring, used by ancient priests for washings and cleanings from sacrifices as required by Mosaic Law. There is NO natural water source on the temple mount, but the City of David has such a source in the Gihon spring.

youTube has some excellent documentaries on this subject based upon recent archaeological discoveries. Check it out.

Items for a new temple have been made and warehoused, but are presently considered nothing more than museum piece replicas. All dressed up and nowhere to go. Our problem is inability to decide whether to build the temple at all.

Orthodox Jews are among the most confused of all Jews. They look to the coming of the messiah, but deny evidence that He has already come and the circumstances surrounding His return. (I personally doubt that many of them will accept Jesus the second time either - they are THAT opinionated.)

Hasidim(*) are divided among themselves as to what they really want and do not consider other Jews to be as Jewish as they themselves are. Hasidim are so opinionated they rarely debate a gentile (they'll just turn around and walk away from you). Hasidim are undecided about many things including but not limited to the third temple - Ezekiel's temple.

The matter of Israeli governance is for Israeli's to decide. That includes the construction (or not) of a third temple and where to put it. It includes what Orthodox Jews believe or don't believe or who they want to discuss it with or not. This is why the gospels repeatedly record their response to Jesus' clever responses to their accusations - they would just turn and walk away from him. They still do when confronted with an argument they can't dispute.

It is wise to watch and listen and consider what God is doing in Israel today.

I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
- God speaking to Abram as quoted in Genesis 12:3

If you cannot believe scripture, then believe what your eyes see happening in Israel today.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Hasidim or Hasidic Jews are also called Orthodox Jews. They wear long black coats and beards, long sideburns and oversized expensive hats some costing as much as $8,000 each. The line of pharisees described in the gospels did not die out. The Hasidim of today are basically unchanged Talmudic scholars (pharisees) of Jesus' day.

Many believe Jesus was a Karaite Jew because He rejected Talmudic traditions laws and ceremonies supported by the pharisees. The Son of God often argued with them - and never lost a dispute. Jesus quoted believed and lived Mosaic Law (Torah), the prophets and the writings only. He rejected the Talmudic law, ceremony and heresies promulgated by the pharisees/hasidim.