Todays State of Israel Is Not Final Return

[Douggg]

There's a false teaching spread among the Churches today involving the return of Jews back to the holy land and modern state of Israel. One must understand how the unbelieving orthodox Jews are seeing their return, as they are deceived into believing God is re-establishing their kingdom of old again today.

So you are saying the Jews over in the one nation of Israel are preparing to receive another as their messiah, anoint him the King of Israel - to re-establish the Kingdom of Israel ?

 

[jgr]

Unbelieving Jews... if an Orthodox Jew follows the commandments of the one God (out of love) and lives for the day Messiah comes and ushers in a time of peace and restoration... you are seriously calling him an unbeliever? Why? Because he lacks YOUR current understanding? That is a bit prideful, isn't it? You are using YOUR understanding (your CURRENT understanding) as the standard by which you judge others who call on the same God you do?

With the Abrahamic genome in all of us, ethnicity disappears as a criterion of chosenness (though it never was, Genesis 17:12). Therefore, what criteria do God use, and has He only ever used, to identify His Chosen People?

None other than faith and obedience in and to Him and His Son.

 

[Dale]

This is the return however there’s no mention of the Jews re-establishing the true kingdom of Israel. What I’m trying to say is Jews have returned to the Holy Land except they created a secular atheistic state using the name of Israel, however Jesus Christ will establish the true kingdom of Israel upon his return.

Israel however was and is run by Athiest Jews, the real Israel would be a theocracy and would be most likely closer to messianic Jews or Eastern Orthodox Christians then today’s Jews. Although I don’t deny there are Rabbis in the Israeli government, but the leading members of the Knesset are Athiest Jews.

The modern State of Israel is not a theocracy, which is good, but neither is it run by atheists.


Take kosher food, a strong Jewish belief, for example.

"The Israeli army is kept strictly kosher and its kitchens are carefully color coded, with two full sets of dishes."

Source:
Keeping Kosher in the IDF - Kosher Spirit



Or try this one.

Lone Soldier Sentenced to Military Jail for Eating Non-kosher Sandwich


"It is against army regulations to bring non-kosher food onto IDF bases, which are all kosher."

Source:
Lone soldier sentenced to military jail for eating non-kosher sandwich

 

[jgr]

No, this has NOTHING to do with Jewish DNA, genes, or lineage of Abraham. The New Covenant simply was not made with unbelievers in the Old Testament, but it was with the Spiritual Israel of the old dispensation. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all saved by this very same New Covenant New Birth, not blood or DNA, which you cannot seem to comprehend was the "ONLY" way of salvation. It was "within" the Old Testament and was the way by which these Old Covenant Saints were saved. Both before the cross and after it, this is how we are all saved. Continuity, which though you know perfectly well Jacob could not be saved without, you continue to talk "AS IF" it is something that didn't exist for these saints before Christ's first advent. But the "TRUTH" is, the efficacy of the death of Christ, and the saints New birth in that death, existed for the elect of Israel long before Christ actually died. Nothing has changed as far as the eternal unconditional Covenant goes.

Revelation 13:8

• "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

For Christ is the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world so that Jacob and Abraham had a part in that new birth, the New Covenant promise even as they were in Old Covenant Israel. Nothing to do with their ethnic Jewish DNA. Christ was with them, and they were raised up in Him to new life by faith, not by DNA, looking forward to the coming of Christ. Just as we are raised up in Him by faith looking backward at the coming of Christ. Not because we have Jewish DNA within Gentiles. Neither of us is there at the cross, we live in different times. But we were both there with Christ spiritually.

So to imply that the Elect of Israel in the Old Covenant times didn't have the New Covenant promise is to not understand continuity, the New Covenant, or the continuing nature of the promises wherein all who are saved, "Must" have been saved in. The New Covenant isn't made with unbelievers, no. It has never been. But what you fail to address is the external Covenant Congregation, which indeed has unbelievers in it. It's not a figment of someone's imagination, it exists by authority of scripture. Ignoring it does not make it go away. It sticks out like a sore thumb, or like a giant Olive tree.

I concur fully, and have never said that DNA was anything other than completely irrelevant, repeatedly citing Genesis 17:12 in support thereof. My point regarding Jewish DNA has been that, with it scientifically now established as being found in every human on earth, there cannot possibly be any legitimate argument that DNA is a criterion that God uses to identify His Chosen People.

Thus the consistent and unwavering message of Scripture from beginning to end, that God's Chosen People are identified solely and exclusively by their faith in and obedience to Him and His Son; is now buttressed by the discipline of science as well. And we know that science originates in God Himself.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So you are saying the Jews over in the one nation of Israel are preparing to receive another as their messiah, anoint him the King of Israel - to re-establish the Kingdom of Israel ?

LOL! No, the kingdom has already been established in Christ through the church, Jews and Gentiles, since the Cross. People redeemed from among men out of nations to Christ's spiritual kingdom, not Jews redeemed out from nations to a Middle Eastern nation called "Israel" so that the kingdom of Israel needed be established there where Christ will rule "in the future". Not going to happen. Christ already RULED through us, the church.

 

[Biblewriter]

The contemporary Jewish religiocultural community acknowledges and applauds the scientifically-established reality that Israel is genetically in all of us.

Abraham lineage

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

Therefore, how is today's Israeli distinguishable from any other member of the human race?

It is totally unacceptable in any person claiming to be a Christian teacher to appeal to alleged "scientific fact" as an excuse for denying the express statements of scripture. This is akin to appealing to evolution as a proof that the Genesis account of creation could not be correct.

 

[jgr]

It is totally unacceptable in any person claiming to be a Christian teacher to appeal to alleged "scientific fact" as an excuse for denying the express statements of scripture. This is akin to appealing to evolution as a proof hat the Genesis account of creation could not be correct.

Is God the Author of Scripture, and also the Author of scientific fact?

 

[Douggg]

LOL! No, the kingdom has already been established in Christ through the church, Jews and Gentiles, since the Cross. People redeemed from among men out of nations to Christ's spiritual kingdom, not Jews redeemed out from nations to a Middle Eastern nation called "Israel" so that the kingdom of Israel needed be established there where Christ will rule "in the future". Not going to happen. Christ already RULED through us, the church.

The Kingdom of Israel will be restored when Jesus returns to this earth, Israel and Jerusalem in particular.

Acts 1:
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

_________________________________________________________

The two sticks have been joined together into one nation - in May 14, 1948. And shown by the two maps; the present one nation covering the geography of the former two nations. And fulfilling the nation born in one day.

But it is not a Kingdom yet, because Jesus has not returned. And that Day, the Father has put in his own power.

What's to happen next the EU to evolve into that ten leader former of Government under one leader - the little horn.

Then, since Israel is land full of people coming from the nation, Gog/Magog will attack.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Kingdom of Israel will be restored when Jesus returns to this earth, Israel and Jerusalem in particular.

False. Nowhere in Scripture where Jesus will return for national Israel and a physical city of Jersualem! This is NOT a restoration that Christ talked about.

Acts 1:
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

They do not know exactly when the Lord restore the Kingdom to Israel. Not to be confused with national Israel. It was with Covenant Israel which the Old Testament Congregation once represented that fell, but Christ rebuilt the kingdom in 3 days where Church is now the New Testament representative of that kingdom! THis is the restoration of the Kingdom. Please read the next verse:

Acts 1:7-8 KJV
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

The people did not know exact when God would restore the kingdom but they did know when they receive power with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost which Christ has established His Kingdom and empowered them to bring bring Gospel to the World! This is the restoration of the Kingdom when Christ has remove the kingdom representative from fallen Old Testament Congregation and gave to the New Testament Congregation that produce fruits (Spoil Elects from the nation by the testimony of Gospel).

Sorry, there won't be a kingdom restoration for national Israel as you think!

The two sticks have been joined together into one nation - in May 14, 1948. And shown by the two maps; the present one nation covering the geography of the former two nations. And fulfilling the nation born in one day.

That is purely speculation. You do not seem to understand the purpose of the kingdom on the following verses:

Ezekiel 37:16
[16] Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

Ezekiel 37:19
[19] Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.​

Chapter 37 of Ezekiel is one of the most glorious spiritual pictures of God's plan of salvation for ALL of His People. The stick for Judah represents the Elect from the Old Testament Jewish congregation and the stick for Ephraim represents the Elect from the New Testament Gentile Congregation. These people from both congregations become one fold (Jews and Gentiles Together) with one shepherd over them with David their kind which is Lord Jesus Christ! This is talking about the established the spiritual Kingdom of Israel where "there is neither Jew nor Greek..."

The time period in view is the NT church age, after the crucifixion of Christ, which made possible the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, bringing peace, cleansing from sin and iniquity, and restoration to the Israel of God, all those chosen from the foundation of the world (Jew and Gentile alike). I hope you can see that all of the prophecies that we have looked at so far were fulfilled in Jesus Christ at the cross, and in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that followed.

If you deny that the Kingdom of Israel has established by Christ, then you may not be part of this kingdom because you have same blindness that is happening to Isreal who have rejected their Messiah.

But it is not a Kingdom yet, because Jesus has not returned.

In this way, You have denied Christ and His Kingdom. If the kingdom has not come, then why are we translated from the kingdom of darkness to His Kingdom when we are born again?

Colossians 1:12-14 KJV
[12] Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:​

This is the kingdom of Israel by the blood of the Lamb at the Cross! Once we are born again (saved) we have been delivered from Satan's kingdom to Christ's kingdom. If his kingdom has not yet come, then we are not saved today.

Selah!

What's to happen next the EU to evolve into that ten leader former of Government under one leader - the little horn.

Then, since Israel is land full of people coming from the nation, Gog/Magog will attack.

More speculations.

 

[Inkfingers]

Ah, the modern "State of Israel". Made by a power that rose out of the waters (peoples - democracy), sits on many nations and people and tongues, which died (League of Nations), and was resurrected (United Nations), which has messianic global unity, peace and security as it's supposed purpose, and which now claims dominion over Jerusalem in a "State of Israel" infamous for its support of freaks (Dana International) and sodomites (Tel Aviv Pride parade).

 

[TribulationSigns]

 

[Biblewriter]

Is God the Author of Scripture, and also the Author of scientific fact?

God is the author of all true facts. But lying mankind is the author of much of what is claimed to be scientific fact. And God warned us against relying upon what is falsely called knowledge.

 

[BABerean2]

The two sticks have been joined together into one nation - in May 14, 1948. And shown by the two maps; the present one nation covering the geography of the former two nations. And fulfilling the nation born in one day.

What you are claiming is one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church, if you think the land created by the Rothschild family and the godless United Nations, is the "Israel" of God.

The "holy nation" born is a day is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

.

 

[Douggg]

Chapter 37 of Ezekiel is one of the most glorious spiritual pictures of God's plan of salvation for ALL of His People. The stick for Judah represents the Elect from the Old Testament Jewish congregation and the stick for Ephraim represents the Elect from the New Testament Gentile Congregation. These people from both congregations become one fold (Jews and Gentiles Together) with one shepherd over them with David their kind which is Lord Jesus Christ! This is talking about the established the spiritual Kingdom of Israel where "there is neither Jew nor Greek..."

Genesis 37:26 And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood? 27 Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.


The sticks in Ezekiel 37 goes back to a replay of the reuniting of the 12 sons in Genesis. When Joseph's brothers sold him off to traders. And he ended up in Egypt. Which he and his brothers were eventually reunited. Which, God made that happen.

In Ezekiel 37, the sticks with Judah's and Joseph's names, it is talking about the reuniting of the 12 tribes into one nation in the end times... in similitude to the reuniting that took place back in Genesis.

Josephs' fate was in the hand of Ephraim; that is, all of his brothers, the whole house of Israel (Jacob).

For Judah, one stick,
his (Judah’s) companions - the children of Israel (the children of Jacob, Judah's brother who sold Joseph)

For Joseph, the second stick which in the hand of Ephraim.
his (Ephraim’s) fellows the tribes of Israel . (the brothers whose fate Jospeh was in their hands)

The stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph put together.... is like the reuniting in Genesis. But in the end times, it is talking about being one nation again, not separated into two kingdoms.

That's what it is talking about. It is not talking about the church uniting with Israel - to become "spiritual Israel". God had reunited the twelve tribes in the past. And He in the end times, He does it again.

 

[Douggg]

What you are claiming is one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church, if you think the land created by the Rothschild family and the godless United Nations, is the "Israel" of God.

The "holy nation" born is a day is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

.

BaB2, do them in the land of Israel, in Ezekiel 38 and 39, know God at the time Gog/Magog attacks? It doesn't sound like they know him that well.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.


Who's name do Jews routinely degrade?

After the Armageddon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20, and Jesus is speaking...

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

So I don't understand your complaint - when I read what it says in Ezekiel 38/39.

 

[Douggg]

If his kingdom has not yet come, then we are not saved today.

Do you say it is wrong for Christians to pray the Lord's prayer?

Your rationale is wrong. The Kingdom of God, concerning Christians, is within Christians. Which we are to conform to being in the image of Jesus, Romans 8:29.

Differently, the Lord's prayer of thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven, refers to the nations of this world coming under the dominion of the Kingdom of God. The mystery of God of that happening is when the 7th trumpet sounds and God starts dismantling Satan's mystery Babylon the Great invisible empire from having dominion over the earth.

The world is currently at enmity with God.

 

[Ken Rank]

I used to believe the same as you Ken, I was a strong Israel supporter (the modern state of Israel) until I researched deeper and had some things shown to me in the bible. Ken you will be shocked when you finally see the truth.

Christians today are being HEAVILY indoctrinated to support Jews no matter what they do - something is weird about that. To ALWAYS give them a green light and overlook all their sin is strange, even God didn't do that, yet Christians today are willing to do that in a heartbeat. Even the concept of a special genetic race of people is troublesome to me, Hitler was condemned for trying to create a supreme race of blonde hair blue eyed Germans. Everyone said Hitler was evil, yet Christians today are putting Jews in a similar category of superiority, above all other people, because they are God's so called "chosen people" - they get a green light for anything because of their special jewish genetics - again something is weird about that and strikes a strangely familiar tone to what Hitler tried to do - how ironic !

Personally I think its possible the Anti-Christ might be a Jew, think about that for a while............while you're thinking also ask yourself - if Israel murdered and killed millions & millions of people would I still support them no matter what? Is there anything they could do that would make me question their actions? Then ask yourself - am I being tricked into supporting a secular nation and it's secular politicians - for THEIR benefit? Now ask yourself - do I hate muslims a lot, because they are Israels enemies? Think of how many muslims have gone to hell because so many Christians hardly witness to them because they are enemies of the Jews. In reality Jesus wants muslims saved just as much as jews, but because Christians are indoctrinated to love Jews and hate muslims, the islamic world is going to hell in huge numbers.

I used to greatly dislike people who were against Israel in the past, I used to argue as you are now - it was an offence to me personally when people attacked the Jews. I used to stand up for them too........ but honestly - please look into the matter deeper and you will find that things are not as they seem. The modern state of Israel is about 2% Christian. The other 98% are other religions and other Gods, namely Judaism. Please come to the realisation that the religion of Judaism worships ANOTHER God, I know right now you believe they follow the Torrah (Old Testament), but if you research the matter you will find out they do not follow the Torrah anymore, they follow the Babylonian Tulmuds. These are Oral traditions of men (Pharisees) passed down the Jewish generations, and they were finally written down. These are the same type of "traditions" that Jesus spoke against when He was on earth. If you look into the matter you will discover that modern Day Jews do not follow the Torrah and are actually worshipping satan, like all other false religions, and that the Bible even calls them the "Synagogue of satan" multiple times. I know this will be shocking to you - as it was to me when I first woke up to this great deception - but its true. Jews REJECT Jesus Christ as their messiah, as such they do NOT go to heaven, and they do not have God the Father as you may believe, as I used to believe.

And the reason I decided to respond to your post is I used to rely on the same Chapter Zechariah 12 - to convince myself I was right to support the Jews (modern Israel). But that all changed when I heard the correct meaning of Zechariah 12. I kinda can't be bothered spelling it all out for you, but to make a long story short, Zechariah 12 is all PAST, it is not about the future, it is a prophecy that has already been fulfilled, if you read further down that chapter you will hopefully recognise verse 10 is talking about the First coming of Christ - He was pierced and looked upon at His FIRST coming (John 19:37 directly refers to zechariah 12:12 as being fulfilled - check it out for yourself). The mourning already happened, many in Israel mourned when Christ was crucified and the families described mourning are literally families that were alive at the time of Christs crucifixion.

Maybe if I can be bothered and have time I will spell this out for you in more clear detail, but if you do care about knowing the truth then please investigate the matter more yourself also. Before I devote anymore time I need to know what sort of person you are, because I won't waste my time on people who cannot look into things, who are stubborn and stuck in their ways.

Anyway I hope you will start to investigate the matter. I have no other purpose of posting this other than to let you know that modern Israel is a deception and I'm telling you this for your own good...... I know its offensive and I know you're strongly loyal to Israel and will feel to even look into the matter is anti-semetic..... but seriously just ask yourself - can't the truth stand up on its own? If you were to look into the matter (in faith) surely the Truth will stand up on its own because Truth can do that right? It's a bit weird when some matter cannot even be looked into because its racist or something. I mean IF its the Truth then let it stand up to examination and scrutiny, rather than people telling you that you cannot even look into the matter. A lot of this "anti-semitism" stuff is just a STRATEGY to stop people even looking into such matters. For many will say to even look into such a matter is anti-semitic. I hope you see the massive problem here - how claims of "anti-semitism" are used to cover up the truth and stop you looking into the matter.

It is not anti-semitic to investigate the claims of the Jews (to see if they are telling the truth) and it is not anti-semitic to investigate this topic..... that's my point.

.

First of all, it's very interesting that you have a complete understanding of my position(s) after having read a couple of short internet forum posts. Second, I too believe the anti-messiah, should he even be reality as Christianity interprets him, will likely be Jewish. I have also entertained the idea that Jerusalem is mystery Babylon... all the symbolism used by John in Revelation were used in conjunction with Jerusalem in the Prophets and the case is compelling. So I doubt you really have a grasp of where I am on pretty anything at this point as I really haven't shared much. I will even take a position for conversation sake, that I don't even personally hold to. Lastly... my defense of the Jewish people (not Israel, the secular nation state) is because >>GOD<< has made promises concerning Judah. The covenant is made with the House of Judah (and the House of Israel) and Judah is the Jews. The two sticks that become one in God's hand in Ezekiel 37 include "the stick of Judah." That isn't "all Jews," but it is the Jews (and their companions). So my defense of the PEOPLE is based on promises God has made, not personal beliefs Ken has. Thanks for trying to, "spell it out for me," I don't know what I would have done without you.

 

[Ken Rank]

Now ask yourself - do I hate muslims a lot, because they are Israels enemies?

Hard to take you seriously anyway when you make such ludicrous assumptions. I don't hate Muslims... and even if I did (which again I don't, I frequent two restaurants owned by Muslims and I spend time with the owners each time I go, talking and enjoy it greatly) it would be because of the radical sects who desire to convert or kill people like you and I... not because of their position on the Jewish people alone (which is also a FACTOR). You are anti-Judaic, that much is clear. But again, thanks for "spelling it out" for me.

 

[Ken Rank]

Are these Godly men you speak of in Christ?
If not,they're not Godly men.And if any of them deny Jesus as the messiah,they are anti Christ.

One had to come to know he is messiah in order to deny him. If we have NO UNDERSTANDING of something, then our comments concerning it mean nothing. But, you go ahead and judge them unto condemnation... that's God's will, right?

 

[Ken Rank]

With the Abrahamic genome in all of us, ethnicity disappears as a criterion of chosenness (though it never was, Genesis 17:12). Therefore, what criteria do God use, and has He only ever used, to identify His Chosen People?

None other than faith and obedience in and to Him and His Son.

I will say this... the number one criteria is the heart condition, period, end of story. But there is a injustice done to Scripture and to God's plan when we spiritualize Abraham's seed entirely and do not allow a literal interpretation to certain things. But I am not going to get into this because of time and because it just doesn't matter. God will do what God will do whether we know it and understand it or not.