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Featured Todays State of Israel Is Not Final Return

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Davy, Jun 25, 2018.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Warning:

    There's a false teaching spread among the Churches today involving the return of Jews back to the holy land and modern state of Israel. One must understand how the unbelieving orthodox Jews are seeing their return, as they are deceived into believing God is re-establishing their kingdom of old again today.

    Today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem already have the materials ready to build another temple and start up the old covenant worship again. Their Sandhedrin has started up again, and they have the temple articles made, and have been drafting Levitical priests for the temple duties. All that is not some working of a few mad men. It is pointing to Bible prophecy for the end of this world.

    One of their false teachings today is the supposed return of the ten lost tribes of Israel. A remnant of the ten tribes in Jeroboam's day did join with Judah and became Jews. But the majority of the ten tribes did not, but were separated from the Jews and scattered in the countries, losing their heritage as part of old Israel (see Hosea 1 & 2 which is about the ten tribes).

    The Jewish scholars of old recognized that the ten tribes were lost, some of them believing they don't exist anymore and won't be gathered, and some of them believing in final they will be gathered. One thing is for sure, there is no way they can be gathered today while Jesus has not returned, because until He does return, the ten tribes don't know who they are! They were never known as Jews in history. And in Hosea 2 God showed they would lose their heritage as Israel, that He would cease their feasts, and new moons, and sabbaths. Those things certainly did not cease among the Jews simply because the Jews did not lose their heritage as part of Israel.

    This thinking by the Jews of today's state of Israel being the final restoration God promised is a deception, and it's in prep for the coming false messiah to Jerusalem whom the deceived will worship in place of God.

    Christ's Church is not to fall away to this deception that is upon today's Jews.
     
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  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The prophesied return of Israel is repeatedly stated to be a return of all Israel, not just of the Jews. Isaiah 66 makes it very clear that this return will take place after Messiah returns, not before.
     
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  3. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is an anti-Semitic post that is void of truth. You need to stop reading things like "Breaking Israel News" and other outlets like it because they are nothing more than their version of the Weekly World News or National Inquirer. You're right about them having the materials ready to go to build the Temple... but there is no sanctioned Sanhedrin. There are a group of rabbis who call themselves that but neither the Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox, or State recognize them as such. Your comments about the lost sheep are close to truth... however, Jesus said he had not been sent but to the lost sheep and he also sent his disciples specifically to the lost sheep. So the "weight" of his message was to them. Finally... the Jews of today do NOT view this nation state called Israel as the Kingdom. Most Jews are secular, first of all, and second of all, any practicing Jew who takes his faith seriously will tell you that they await the messiah to usher in the kingdom. What you are quoting, or at least inferring, is what other CHRISTIANS write that they say the Jews believe. In other words, you're repeating error that comes from Christians not Jews.

    I am sure you don't intend to do that, but that is what you are doing. Next time, just go to a Jewish synagogue and ask them what they believe. Much easier and cuts out the middle man who is almost always wrong anyway. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  4. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In it's fullness... there is an awakening before the return though I don't believe the full restoration of the entire house of Israel happens until messiah comes.
     
  5. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is the return however there’s no mention of the Jews re-establishing the true kingdom of Israel. What I’m trying to say is Jews have returned to the Holy Land except they created a secular atheistic state using the name of Israel, however Jesus Christ will establish the true kingdom of Israel upon his return.
     
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  6. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Why is there the insertion of the requirement that the Jews have to know their individual tribal affiliation? The only one who needs to know is the one who gathered them together again. I'm certain He knows.
     
  7. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And He does... doesn't He? :) When the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, it has 12 gates, one for each of the tribes of Israel.
     
  8. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're not completely correct (or wrong) but they are not a state of atheists. While there are atheist Jews and it is a secular nation today... the Knesset has many godly men, some are even rabbis. Yehudah Glick is one of them... and with people like him in place, I tend to look at their political system a little more favorably.
     
  9. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Israel however was and is run by Athiest Jews, the real Israel would be a theocracy and would be most likely closer to messianic Jews or Eastern Orthodox Christians then today’s Jews. Although I don’t deny there are Rabbis in the Israeli government, but the leading members of the Knesset are Athiest Jews.
     
  10. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Actually, the scriptures very plainly show Judah (that is, the Jews) in the land during the seventieth week. Students of Bible prophecy have long known that they would have to return to their land in order fr these prophecies to take place. But their actual end time return was never prophesied at all. The end time scenario in the Bible simply opens with them there.

    The ONLY end time return specifically prophesied in the Bible is the return of ALL Israel. And as I pointed out earlier, Isaiah 66 makes it very plain that this return will take place AFTER the Lord comes "with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire", not before he comes.
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    True.

    They were then expelled some forty years later.
     
  12. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I kind of find your post a little troubling. I generally enjoy your views even if I don't always agree with them. But on this one... I am sorry, I just find it lacking. First of all, how do you define "leading Jews?" And to suggest that most are atheist reminds me of the comedian Steven Wright who said, "67.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot." :) Are you not aware of recent polls that show that 83% of all Israeli Jews are religious to "some degree?" Even their "leading Jew" ( Benjamin Netanyahu ) you don't have exactly an Orthodox guy, but you certainly have a religious God-fearing Jew in him. And you understand that save for their Independence Day, the only other national holidays are Pesach, Shavuot, and Sukkot... all biblical feasts. These are their NATIONAL ATHEIST holidays? Also... the idea that the coming Kingdom will look more like the Eastern Orthodox OR the Messianic Jews is almost humorous as despite your shared belief that Yeshua is messiah, you couldn't be more different in practice and tradition. Finally, to think that the coming Kingdom can only look like your current view of Scripture or the Messianic Jews current view of Scripture means God is A. confined to either of your CURRENT views and B. means no end time truth exists outside of your two sects? That is a grand statement and one, obviously, I reject.
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The contemporary Jewish religiocultural community acknowledges and applauds the scientifically-established reality that Israel is genetically in all of us.

    Abraham lineage

    DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

    Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

    Therefore, how is today's Israeli distinguishable from any other member of the human race?
     
  14. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The ancient Israelites believed in the coming of the Messiah prophesied by their prophets, this Messiah would be Jesus it was only later generations that rejected Jesus Christ. So we can say the ancient Israelites were more Christian then the Jews of the present day. The fact that Jewish holidays are celebrated doesn’t make the country itself Jewish, in Lebanon both many Christian and Islamic holidays are celebrated, yet the country is neither considered Muslim or Christian, but secular. I doubt Netanyahu is a God fearing Jew.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  15. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They belong to the Semitic family as we do, even if they do have pure Jewish genes in them, that does not grant them the kingdom of heaven. Many evangelicals falsely spread that the Jews are Gods chosen people and all Christians are obliged to support them. This is false, by that logic the Pharisees the most abhorrent blasphemers history has ever seen, are chosen by God for being Jewish and are on their way to heaven. Only those who believe in Jesus Christ and follow him (who are the Christians) are God’s chosen people. In the eyes of God an unbelieving Jew is just as bad and unrighteous as an unbelieving Muslim, Hindu, Bhuddist, or Athiest.
     
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  16. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, this has NOTHING to do with Jewish DNA, genes, or lineage of Abraham. The New Covenant simply was not made with unbelievers in the Old Testament, but it was with the Spiritual Israel of the old dispensation. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all saved by this very same New Covenant New Birth, not blood or DNA, which you cannot seem to comprehend was the "ONLY" way of salvation. It was "within" the Old Testament and was the way by which these Old Covenant Saints were saved. Both before the cross and after it, this is how we are all saved. Continuity, which though you know perfectly well Jacob could not be saved without, you continue to talk "AS IF" it is something that didn't exist for these saints before Christ's first advent. But the "TRUTH" is, the efficacy of the death of Christ, and the saints New birth in that death, existed for the elect of Israel long before Christ actually died. Nothing has changed as far as the eternal unconditional Covenant goes.

    Revelation 13:8
    • "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
    For Christ is the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world so that Jacob and Abraham had a part in that new birth, the New Covenant promise even as they were in Old Covenant Israel. Nothing to do with their ethnic Jewish DNA. Christ was with them, and they were raised up in Him to new life by faith, not by DNA, looking forward to the coming of Christ. Just as we are raised up in Him by faith looking backward at the coming of Christ. Not because we have Jewish DNA within Gentiles. Neither of us is there at the cross, we live in different times. But we were both there with Christ spiritually.

    So to imply that the Elect of Israel in the Old Covenant times didn't have the New Covenant promise is to not understand continuity, the New Covenant, or the continuing nature of the promises wherein all who are saved, "Must" have been saved in. The New Covenant isn't made with unbelievers, no. It has never been. But what you fail to address is the external Covenant Congregation, which indeed has unbelievers in it. It's not a figment of someone's imagination, it exists by authority of scripture. Ignoring it does not make it go away. It sticks out like a sore thumb, or like a giant Olive tree.
     
  17. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As for Netanyahu... we can only judge him based on our observations and since we have record of him in prayer, at the Western Wall, giving blessings for holy days... I will just let it be what it is. Regarding the ancient Israelites.... all practicing Jews await the coming messiah. Once taught there were two (ben Yosef the suffering servant and ben David the conquering king) they didn't recognize Yeshua as messiah ben Yosef... at least not all of them. Acts 21:20 actually means as many as 20,000 or more Jewish people believed he was messiah. The elite did not. Others close to them did not... but Yeshua had an impact in and on Judea that we miss from our Christian lens.

    I will say this again... a recent poll showed 83% of Jews in Israel are religious to some degree. On the other hand, according to a 2017 study by the Public Religion Research Institute, approximately 69% of Americans are Christian. So, to be consistent... if Israel is atheist with 83% being religious, then the United States at only 69% Christian must be REALLY atheist?

    We don't need to make stuff up to fit out bias or share "what we think" when the facts are there for us to see and use.
     
  18. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Afganistan formerly had and Athiest government (until America supported the Islamic terrorists to overthrow it) despite nearly 100% of Afghanistan being Muslim. When I say Israel I mean the government which is a secular democracy. Today’s Jews don’t recognize him as the Messiah while their forefathers would have.
     
  19. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In my personal view... Zech 12:10 deals with this. Many didn't recognize him at that time but if the one who came is the one who comes... and they are waiting on the one who comes... then all they really lack is an understanding that this was the same who was here before. Unless we're wrong... but we can't even entertain that idea. :)

    Regarding the 83% poll that you seem to want to avoid... you almost make it sound like the 17% are the political leaders. The breakdown is similar in the government as it is in the mainstream. They don't accept Yeshua as messiah, but that doesn't make them atheist (denying God) it just means they don't currently see what we see, again, assuming we are correct which I believe we are.
     
  20. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, they might not be atheist, but today’s Jews are not Gods chosen people. Israel is a country with a government governed by secular policies and Athiest Jews. 83% of jews believing in God doesn’t make Israel, a secular state, the authentic kingdom of God on Earth.
     
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