To those who don't believe in eternal security...

[aiki]

According to this paragraph, you agree that we have to accept Jesus in order to be saved, right? IOW's, God calls we answer, right? That is how I understand both you and scripture on this matter, if I am misunderstanding you I need you to explain what I don't get.

More or less. I would add that God calls only those He knows in His omniscience will answer.

when it says that we need to remain in Him as He is in us, it kind of is teaching that we help to maintain our salvation...

Right. I don't think we can just sit on our hands and do nothing, expecting God to move us like puppets. We are "co-laborers with Christ," right? However, we only work out what God has first worked into us:

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

We are merely vessels, or branches in the vine, that receive and transmit God's power, conduits through which God expresses Himself. I don't see this as working together with God to maintain my salvation; for that suggests I have something of my own to contribute to what God is doing in and through me. On this head, I wrote the following in a blog entry a few weeks ago:

It isn't that God "gets us off the ground" and then expects us to keep ourselves aloft. Not at all. He gets us into the air and then He sees to it that we remain there. From beginning to end our relationship with God is His doing, not ours; and so He gets all the glory for the marvelous things He does in and through us. All we do, fundamentally, is receive and transmit. We are vessels (2Ti. 2:21) into whom and through whom God communicates Himself, branches that simply abide and receive the life-giving, fruit-bearing sap of the Vine (Jn. 15:5). When this is the way we are living, good works are a natural consequence. When we are surrendered and open to the transforming power of God's Spirit, there is no need for legalistic brow-beating, for threats of lost salvation, for fear to motivate us to good works. As the apostle James explains, when we are truly born-again and walking in the Spirit, righteous living is the inevitable and natural result: our faith is unavoidably manifested in corresponding works.

is kind of like an symbiotic relationship of HS power combined with our efforts for an unbeatable combination.

I'm afraid I don't believe this - at all. If there is one thing Scripture makes crystal clear it is that we are, apart from God's empowerment, utterly incapable of being who He wants us to be. We have nothing to bring to the table when it comes to living the Christian life. And until a person realizes their complete weakness, they will not surrender and depend upon God as they ought to. They will always be trying to add their two cents to His work, and so long as they do and to the degree that they do, they diminish and foul the result. One cannot mix Self-effort with the work of God's Spirit. Self only ever produces more of itself. Only God can make us godly. A branch in the vine simply receives the life-giving sap of the vine and is strengthened thereby. So long as the branch remains in connection to the vine, it grows and produces fruit. But the branch does not struggle to do so. It just abides. No fiercely clinging to the vine; no straining to increase its size and to produce fruit. It is simply a conduit through which the life of the vine is expressed. The growth and fruit of the branch is just the natural consequence of it remaining connected to the vine and receiving - not generating - the life-giving sap of the vine.

See, the non OSASer believes that since we choose to accept Jesus we can also choose to "unaccept" Him. Your post seemed to indicate that that was not possible.

We choose to respond to God's saving work in us but the work is His, not ours. We simply receive what He has and is doing in saving us. Our salvation, then, is not centered upon our choice but upon God's work. We would not have a choice to make were it not for God working in us to see it; we would not understand the choice were it not for God enabling us to do so; we would not want to choose Him were He not working to positively dispose us to choosing Him. So, our salvation is not our doing. We simply receive what God has done. And when we do, it should be with the understanding that God takes on the responsibility to maintain what we have received from Him.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

That leaves two options, 1. you have scripture that says we cannot choose anything once we come to Christ. Which has been asked for a dozen and a half times and no one even attempts to provide a passage that says our free will is revoked upon salvation, or 2. our salvation in the first place does not require us to accept or choose to accept it. that is the two choices.

I don't see that these are the only two options. We choose after we are saved to receive from God just as we did in order to be saved. And as we receive, we grow as branches in the Vine and bear the peaceable fruit of righteousness. But the work is still all God's. He empowers and transforms us by His Spirit. We simply surrender to Him doing so and receive from Him all we need to be who He has called us to be. Our continued salvation remains God's work which He began and sustains. Now, we may choose to reject His work in us (which I think Scripture teaches is a consequence of never being truly saved in the first place) but this doesn't oblige Him to abandon us or reject us in turn.

Well, I must leave off this conversation for a bit. Will write more later.

Selah.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Nobody who understands the Biblical doctrine of eternal security claims that.

If somebody's still practicing homosexuality then that shows there is no evidence of repentance in the first place.

What you're describing is a system by which we're required to maintain our salvation but that's not what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that upon regeneration the believer's old nature is crucified and he receives a new nature and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

If the old nature is crucified then how does somebody return to it If we have a new nature that seeks to serve God and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit how does someone overpower the Holy Spirit

The answer I keep seeing here is "free will" but even with free will you can only exercise your free will to do those things that your nature allows you to do.

I might have the free will to flap my arms and try to fly but I can't fly because that's not in my nature.

An unregenerate man cannot call on the Lord for salvation under his own power because his old sinful nature does not allow him to. Conversely a regenerate man cannot walk away from the Lord because his new nature will not allow him to.

No. salvation is free and unmerited.

Thank you for attempting to explain it to me. Can you quote scripture that says we're given a new nature when were regenerated?

 

[South Bound]

Thank you for attempting to explain it to me. Can you quote scripture that says we're given a new nature when were regenerated?

I'm a little short on time but here's a good explanation until I get home

https://www.gotquestions.org/regeneration-Bible.html

 

[razzelflabben]

More or less. I would add that God calls only those He knows in His omniscience will answer.

I have to side with scripture here....John 12:32 says that He will call all men to Himself...who does all leave out?

Right. I don't think we can just sit on our hands and do nothing, expecting God to move us like puppets. We are "co-laborers with Christ," right? However, we only work out what God has first worked into us:

well, we will look at all of these, but that isn't the disagreement on the table so I will only touch on them and not really get into details.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

We are merely vessels, or branches in the vine, that receive and transmit God's power, conduits through which God expresses Himself. I don't see this as working together with God to maintain my salvation; for that suggests I have something of my own to contribute to what God is doing in and through me. On this head, I wrote the following in a blog entry a few weeks ago:

It isn't that God "gets us off the ground" and then expects us to keep ourselves aloft. Not at all. He gets us into the air and then He sees to it that we remain there. From beginning to end our relationship with God is His doing, not ours; and so He gets all the glory for the marvelous things He does in and through us. All we do, fundamentally, is receive and transmit. We are vessels (2Ti. 2:21) into whom and through whom God communicates Himself, branches that simply abide and receive the life-giving, fruit-bearing sap of the Vine (Jn. 15:5). When this is the way we are living, good works are a natural consequence. When we are surrendered and open to the transforming power of God's Spirit, there is no need for legalistic brow-beating, for threats of lost salvation, for fear to motivate us to good works. As the apostle James explains, when we are truly born-again and walking in the Spirit, righteous living is the inevitable and natural result: our faith is unavoidably manifested in corresponding works.

here is my problem with what you said "AS" it is written. Throughout scripture we are commanded to do things...like Love, yield, confess, be like minded, speak truth, do good works, etc. Now as you have it written here, those commands are meaningless because we are just vessels for God to move us around like puppets. (remember we are talking about how your words are coming across here) What I said and am saying is that there is a symbiotic relationship of sorts when it comes to walking with Christ in our salvation. That relationship is that He is the Power to our efforts...iow's all the effort in the world does no good without the power of the HS to back it up. that is consistent with the above passage and with the totality of scripture.

I'm afraid I don't believe this - at all. If there is one thing Scripture makes crystal clear it is that we are, apart from God's empowerment, utterly incapable of being who He wants us to be. We have nothing to bring to the table when it comes to living the Christian life. And until a person realizes their complete weakness, they will not surrender and depend upon God as they ought to. They will always be trying to add their two cents to His work, and so long as they do and to the degree that they do, they diminish and foul the result. One cannot mix Self-effort with the work of God's Spirit. Self only ever produces more of itself. Only God can make us godly.

you just contradicted yourself (was trying to deal with the whole paragraph at once but this is important to our understanding of one another) you say we do nothing but only God can make us godly....how can God make us anything if we are doing nothing? He can't...

A branch in the vine simply receives the life-giving sap of the vine and is strengthened thereby. So long as the branch remains in connection to the vine, it grows and produces fruit. But the branch does not struggle to do so. It just abides. No fiercely clinging to the vine; no straining to increase its size and to produce fruit. It is simply a conduit through which the life of the vine is expressed. The growth and fruit of the branch is just the natural consequence of it remaining connected to the vine and receiving - not generating - the life-giving sap of the vine.

it appears you are confusing God's commands for us to obey with some form of works righteousness and I still don't understand why you would or how you are confusing the two. Scripture clearly commands us to obey, that is doing something. Without the power of the indwelling HS that effort is meaningless but with the power of the HS it is a success every time. You can't tell me that scriptures like "live such good lives before the pagans that..." is me sitting there doing nothing and God pulling my strings so that the command has nothing to do with what God wants me to do and only about what He wants to do. It takes me putting forth some effort to obey in fact, what would you do with this passage if your words are true...John 14:15...see, there is something to do, something God asks us to do, He says, OBEY...it isn't just part of our new man, it's a commandment of God for us to live in with the help of the HS we can do what we could not do before our salvation. IOW's with the HS our attemtps to obey are successful without the HS they are filthy rags but the efforts are still there that is what God commands and scripture says.

We choose to respond to God's saving work in us but the work is His, not ours. We simply receive what He has and is doing in saving us. Our salvation, then, is not centered upon our choice but upon God's work. We would not have a choice to make were it not for God working in us to see it; we would not understand the choice were it not for God enabling us to do so; we would not want to choose Him were He not working to positively dispose us to choosing Him. So, our salvation is not our doing.

here is more of that contradiction that is bothering me...you say we have to accept or choose God but then you say, it isn't about our choosing. Now I know that some believe that we don't even have to choose but that isn't what you said, you said we have to choose then you said that our choice doesn't make a difference. This is the contradictions that will always keep me from understanding what you are trying to say because I don't believe that God is a God of contradictions. He is a God of both and but not contradictions.

We simply receive what God has done. And when we do, it should be with the understanding that God takes on the responsibility to maintain what we have received from Him.

not really disagreeing with Christ is our salvation or that God maintains our salvation...not sure why you would think that is the disagreement.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

yep...It is a work of Christ...again, this we agree on, when do we get to talk about what we disagree on?

I don't see that these are the only two options. We choose after we are saved to receive from God just as we did in order to be saved. And as we receive, we grow as branches in the Vine and bear the peaceable fruit of righteousness. But the work is still all God's. He empowers and transforms us by His Spirit. We simply surrender to Him doing so and receive from Him all we need to be who He has called us to be. Our continued salvation remains God's work which He began and sustains. Now, we may choose to reject His work in us (which I think Scripture teaches is a consequence of never being truly saved in the first place) but this doesn't oblige Him to abandon us or reject us in turn.

how this part makes it sound like you agree that we have something to put into our salvation...as to the not truly saved, there is at the moment one passage on the table waiting for a response that questions that, others can be provided as requested but the bottom line is that our beliefs should be if they are truth able to be reconciled to all the scripture not just those we want to deal with.

On the topic of OSAS belief, I have ever only seen one side of the issue reconcile all the scriptures and that is non OSAS belief. I welcome and encourage and challenge you to be the one OSAS er who does reconcile all the passaages into one understanding of OSAS theology....until then I am stuck believing that non OSAS is truth because it does reconcile all the scriptures.

 

[razzelflabben]

One of the things I have pointed out repeatedly and have been insulted repeatedly for doing so is that scripture tells us that we have a guarantee of our salvation, a down payment and if we see the evidence of that guarantee, that down payment we have nothing to worry about. If on the other hand it isn't evidenced, we need to worry...that evidence...the HS which would be revealed through the fruit of the spirit aka righteousness.

Bottom line, this discussion when approached properly is very interesting, but in the end of the matter what we decide doesn't matter, the only assurance we really have is the working of the HS in our lives to produce Love, patience, self control, etc.

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT
Posts have been removed for flaming.

Please discuss the topic and not each other.

 

[BobRyan]

One of the things I have pointed out repeatedly and have been insulted repeatedly for doing so is that scripture tells us that we have a guarantee of our salvation, a down payment and if we see the evidence of that guarantee, that down payment we have nothing to worry about. If on the other hand it isn't evidenced, we need to worry...that evidence...the HS which would be revealed through the fruit of the spirit aka righteousness.

Bottom line, this discussion when approached properly is very interesting, but in the end of the matter what we decide doesn't matter, the only assurance we really have is the working of the HS in our lives to produce Love, patience, self control, etc.

True - salvation is promised to those who believe - it is not promised to those who disbelieve by their words and actions showing that regardless of their previous - earlier claims - they are in fact at this point - an unbeliever -

 

[CodyFaith]

There is no eternal security, at least for you at the moment who says there is, saying so is a license to sin. Please read http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehood-exposed/diabolical-doctrines/eternal-security.htm

Jesus says otherwise.

John 3:36

 

[razzelflabben]

True - salvation is promised to those who believe - it is not promised to those who disbelieve by their words and actions showing that regardless of their previous - earlier claims - they are in fact at this point - an unbeliever -

pretty much

 

[BobRyan]

More or less. I would add that God calls only those He knows in His omniscience will answer.

Many are called - few are chosen -- "the chosen" who in God's foreknowledge are known to choose life and to be saved.

God calls all men everywhere to be saved --
1 Timothy 2: (YLT -- young's literal translation)
I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men:
2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,
3 for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour,
4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Jesus says otherwise.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:36 ESV

But what if someone believes but does not obey?

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
James 2:19 ESV

Answer: they are no different from the demons! So what happens to those who believe in Jesus as their Savior but do not obey Him?

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
James 2:24‭, ‬26 ESV

Answer: their faith means nothing. It is no different if I gave a little boy a puppy for his birthday...but the puppy was dead.

 

[CodyFaith]

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:36 ESV

But what if someone believes but does not obey?

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
James 2:19 ESV

Answer: they are no different from the demons! So what happens to those who believe in Jesus as their Savior but do not obey Him?

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
James 2:24‭, ‬26 ESV

Answer: their faith means nothing. It is no different if I gave a little boy a puppy for his birthday...but the puppy was dead.

ESV version. Compare the verse to the KJV. See the difference?

KJV is the only true version.

Faith comes with believing. In James it was talking how one shows they have faith, their works demonstrate one's faith.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:36 ESV

But what if someone believes but does not obey?

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
James 2:19 ESV

Answer: they are no different from the demons! So what happens to those who believe in Jesus as their Savior but do not obey Him?

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
James 2:24‭, ‬26 ESV

Answer: their faith means nothing. It is no different if I gave a little boy a puppy for his birthday...but the puppy was dead.

So now that Jesus saved you, have you worked hard enough to stay saved? Have been good enough? Or are you worried you need do more? Are you confident? Or unsure? Have you sinned since? Did you need to crucify Jesus again?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Many are called - few are chosen -- "the chosen" who in God's foreknowledge are known to choose life and to be saved.

God calls all men everywhere to be saved --
1 Timothy 2: (YLT -- young's literal translation)
I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men:
2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,
3 for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour,
4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

People cannot be saved unless God chooses them, yet God chooses people because He knows they would be saved? Sounds rather circular to me.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So now that Jesus saved you, have you worked hard enough to stay saved? Have been good enough? Or are you worried you need do more? Are you confident? Or unsure? Have you sinned since? Did you need to crucify Jesus again?

The point is this, "Savior" is a title that describes something Jesus has done. He saves. "Lord" is a title that describes who Jesus IS. When we claim to believe and accept Jesus as our Savior but disregard His "Lordship" by ignoring His commandments, we never really accepted Jesus for who He really is...the Lord. Rather, you created a man made, "golden calf" version of Jesus.

When we are "born again" our old self dies. Yet if we claim that we are born again yet refuse to "die to self" and submit to His Lordship, there is no reason to believe you were ever saved in the first place.

 

[DingDing]

Good post!

Here's my favorite verse on eternal security:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

How deeply have you looked into this verse? And are you willing to put it under careful examination?

 

[CodyFaith]

How deeply have you looked into this verse? And are you willing to put it under careful examination?

He has passed from death unto life. He has everlasting life.

It speaks for itself.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So now that Jesus saved you, have you worked hard enough to stay saved?

Yes.

Have been good enough?

Yes

Or are you worried you need do more?

No

Are you confident?

Yes

Or unsure?

No

Have you sinned since?

Yes

Did you need to crucify Jesus again?

No.

 

[DingDing]

Exactly The Bible is very clear that there are tares and false converts in the Church Not everybody who says "Lord Lord" is saved and it's silly to assume that just because one repeats a prayer that they're saved


The Bible describes four criteria to determine whether or not someone is saved:

1 Testimony
2 Doctrine
3 Fruit
4 Sanctification

...

So what happens to those who had all these things, and then they fall away? That is the question you are not addressing. What happens when saved persons fall away?

 

[CodyFaith]

Yes.


Yes


No


Yes


No


Yes


No.

So do you preach the gospel?

Infact, I'll take it a step further: What is the gospel?