To those who don't believe in eternal security...

CodyFaith

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Explain this verse. And not only explain it, but explain it honestly:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If you can't, no worries, it's really not possible to explain it any other way than an eternal security perspective. Because that's the truth.

Just as Moses lifted up the bronze serpent in the wilderness, and all who looked upon the serpent were healed, so too that anyone who looks upon the Son of Man and believes are saved. (John 3:14-15)

Come join the family of God. You're wanted. So much.
 
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South Bound

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Ephesians 4:30. Without really getting into it (in this post), let me respond with: What happens when a person is saved that God cannot undo if the person chooses to reject him in the end?

How can e regenerated man given a new nature and indwelt by the Spirit reject God?

What your question comes down to is that you believe that salvation is something we choose and, thus, can reject, as opposed to the Bible's teaching that salvation is a regenerating work done in us by the Holy Spirit.
 
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Greg J.

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What your question comes down to is that you believe that salvation is something we choose and, thus, can reject, as opposed to the Bible's teaching that salvation is a regenerating work done in us by the Holy Spirit.
Nope. What my question comes down to is, does a Christian still have free will such that he can reject God, or has that freedom been eliminated by being saved?
 
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Ephesians 4:30. Without really getting into it (in this post), let me respond with: What happens when a person is saved that God cannot undo if the person chooses to reject him in the end?
Oh...I was confused because I did not find a Ephesians 3:40. I thought that perhaps the OP meant Ephesians 3:20 or something.
 
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A free will, yes, but also a new nature and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

So back to the question you refuse to answer:

How can a regenerated man given a new nature and indwelt by the Spirit reject God, when his nature is to serve God?
Because faith is a choice that is built on trust. When someone goes through trials, that faith is tested. Unfortunately, many people don't realize how weak their faith really is until they face hardship. When they do...their faith crumbles and they no longer trust God. When they no longer trust God, they reject Him. When they reject God, like a gentleman, God will step aside. It is important to note that God never leaves. He is still there. However, His face becomes hidden from you so it becomes harder to see Him.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 1:21‭-‬26‭, ‬28‭-‬32 NIV


Notice in the scripture that the individual's first have a choice. When people choose to push God away, God will "Give you over" to the things you rejected Him for.
 
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South Bound

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Because faith is a choice that is built on trust. When someone goes through trials, that faith is tested. Unfortunately, many people don't realize how weak their faith really is until they face hardship. When they do...their faith crumbles and they no longer trust God. When they no longer trust God, they reject Him. When they reject God, like a gentleman, God will step aside. It is important to note that God never leaves. He is still there. However, His face becomes hidden from you so it becomes harder to see Him.

<staff edit>

Why do you believe that salvation is based on the amount or quality of faith and trust we have, and not on the object of our faith, as the Bible teaches?

Salvation isn't like an amusement park ride. There is no sign that says, "You must have this much faith and trust to be saved".

We have NO faith of our own and are incapable of having faith until God grants us faith upon regeneration. It is always about the object of our faith, Christ, and not how much faith we have.

Every Christian goes through hills and valleys where they have a lot of faith one day, and very little the next. Are they any more or less saved the one day than the other? Of course not! Because we know that it is Christ who saves and His faithfulness that keeps us saved, not our ability to have a given amount of faith.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 1:21‭-‬26‭, ‬28‭-‬32 NIV


Notice in the scripture that the individual's first have a choice.

Notice also, that they were unregenerate to begin with.

When people choose to push God away, God will "Give you over" to the things you rejected Him for.

They didn't have God in the first place. The unregenerate rejecting God is not an example of a saved man losing his salvation.
 
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CodyFaith

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Discussion and debate about eternal security is fine, but that still doesn't explain the verse in my post.

Instead of saying "it can't be eternal security because xyz!!!" I was more saying, then, if eternal security not be the case, try to explain that verse from your a perspective that isn't a eternal security perspective. And do so honestly.

Which of course is not possible, because the verse is very clear in it's meaning. That's why I posted it.
 
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Thank you for ignoring my question.

Your question was:
How can a regenerated man given a new nature and indwelt by the Spirit reject God, when his nature is to serve God?

Answer was:
Because faith is a choice that is built on trust. When someone goes through trials, that faith is tested. Unfortunately, many people don't realize how weak their faith really is until they face hardship. When they do...their faith crumbles and they no longer trust God.
In short...the answer is Yes.

Why do you believe that salvation is based on the amount or quality of faith and trust we have, and not on the object of our faith, as the Bible teaches?

Show me where scripture says that people who do not have faith in God are saved.


Salvation isn't like an amusement park ride. There is no sign that says, "You must have this much faith and trust to be saved".

We have NO faith and are incapable of having faith until God grants us faith upon regeneration. It is always about the object of our faith, Christ, and not how much faith we have.

Calvinism? How does one become regenerated in the first place?

Every Christian goes through hills and valleys where they have a lot of faith one day, and very little the next. Are they any more or less saved the one day than the other? Of course not! Because we know that it is Christ who saves and His faithfulness that keeps us saved, not our ability to have a given amount of faith.
I agree and that is not at all what I was saying.

What you're suggesting is works based and is not the Gospel.
Not necessarily. " Faith without works is dead." What are your thoughts on James 2?

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Philippians 2:12 NIV
http://bible.com/111/php.2.12.NIV

Notice also, that they were unregenerate to begin with.
How do you know?


They didn't have God in the first place. The unregenerate rejecting God is not an example of a saved man losing his salvation.
If they were not His, then they were not His to give over.
 
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razzelflabben

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Explain this verse. And not only explain it, but explain it honestly:

Ephesians 3:40
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
first, let's look at what each side basically believes. IOW's there are splinter groups but the basic core belief is this....1. the OSAS group believes that there is nothing that we can do to remove ourselves from God's favor once we say the sinners prayer.

2. The non OSAS group believes that if we can choose to follow Christ we can also choose not to follow Christ.

Now how this verse is reconciled with the non OSAS group...first of all your passage reference is wrong, it is Ephesians 3:20 not 40...first the context is a prayer to remain faithful to Christ. Why is such a prayer necessary if there is no chance of us falling away? See, the questions go both ways and the OSAS group refuses to answer these questions. Second. the part you seem to want to refer to is "whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption"...the Non OSAS group sees no problem here because we are sealed...but being sealed does not mean we have no choice. see, the core difference in the beliefs boils down to if we loss our right of choice or not. But things get more interesting when we look at translation issues.

Let's go to Strongs...the definition for the word used that is translated sealed is very interesting...
to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal

  1. for security: from Satan

  2. since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret

  3. in order to mark a person or a thing
    1. to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp

    2. angels are said to be sealed by God
  4. in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
    1. to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
      1. of a written document

      2. to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be
Notice that there is nothing there about removing our right to choose whom we serve. In fact, it is the things that we are told that cannot separate us that we are sealed from/to...Romans 8:38-39

If you can't, no worries, it's really not possible to explain it any other way than an eternal security perspective. Because that's the truth.
now, this is boastful and arrogant and self centered and that makes it sinful.
Just as Moses lifted up the bronze serpent in the wilderness, and all who looked upon the serpent were healed, so too that anyone who looks upon the Son of Man and believes are saved. (John 3:14-15)
this is absolutely true but that does NOT mean we no longer have any choice which is the core difference between the two understandings and I can't even count the number of times I have asked the OSAS crowd to present even one passage that says we loss our right to choose or that we cannot "fall away" which is scriptural and the best they offer is something like...but if you really believe you won't....except that isn't what scripture says nor does it answer the question presented. So maybe instead of boasting and being arrogant as you are above you should attempt to ask some questions of your position on the matter.
Come join the family of God. You're wanted. So much.
lol...thanks but I am already part of the Family of God as per His promise and the evidence of salvation that He gives to all who believe unto salvation.
 
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Discussion and debate about eternal security is fine, but that still doesn't explain the verse in my post.

Instead of saying "it can't be eternal security because xyz!!!" I was more saying, then, if eternal security not be the case, try to explain that verse from your a perspective that isn't a eternal security perspective. And do so honestly.

Which of course is not possible, because the verse is very clear in it's meaning. That's why I posted it.
The answer to this question is not entirely clear because there is scripture that supports both sides. Jesus' message about the good shepherd (John) suggests no free will. The parable of the sower (Matthew) suggest choice. The good news is that regardless of your personal position, the topic in itself is not necessary for salvation. So we all will have a chance to ask God directly.
 
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razzelflabben

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How can e regenerated man given a new nature and indwelt by the Spirit reject God?

What your question comes down to is that you believe that salvation is something we choose and, thus, can reject, as opposed to the Bible's teaching that salvation is a regenerating work done in us by the Holy Spirit.
Let me answer this by asking you a question...if we can no longer choose, why does scripture repeatedly command us to follow the way of truth? I mean, if we can't choose but to live in the new creation why would God command us to live in that new man? That is a contradiction and since God cannot lie it seems to be a stumbling block for the OSAS group of believers.

See, according to scripture we do have a new, regenerated spirit but we are responsible for it's upkeep so to speak. An upkeep that testifies to our being able to reject Christ after accepting Him.
 
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razzelflabben

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Thank you for ignoring my question.

Why do you believe that salvation is based on the amount or quality of faith and trust we have, and not on the object of our faith, as the Bible teaches?
wait a moment...that wasn't even close to what I read the posters to be saying...how about if you reword it to reflect what was said so that the discussion can be honest and truthful as God intends?
 
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razzelflabben

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The answer to this question is not entirely clear because there is scripture that supports both sides. Jesus' message about the good shepherd (John) suggests no free will. The parable of the sower (Matthew) suggest choice. The good news is that regardless of your personal position, the topic in itself is not necessary for salvation. So we all will have a chance to ask God directly.
where does the story of the Good Shepherd suggest no choice? It's a parable about the Shepherds care not the sheep's defiance
 
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Greg J.

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How can a regenerated man given a new nature and indwelt by the Spirit reject God, when his nature is to serve God?
By using his free will to reject God, just like demons did:

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. (James 2:19, 1984 NIV)

They had a kind of unity with God and an even more holy and good nature before they fell than humans do. We have a sinful nature, but they did not. Who is alive today who has a nature that cannot reject God? The reality of the nature of sin testifies that we can. That is exactly what it is working to accomplish, even in Christians—perhaps especially in Christians.

By the way, if you read my previous posts carefully, you will see that I did not assert that a saved person can become unsaved. I wrote questions because there is more to the issue than was being referred to.
it's really not possible to explain it
People have been doing that for two millenia. The conflict between intelligent people is why people are drawn to the challenge in the title.

Ephesians 4:30 is identifying sinning with grieving the Holy Spirit. The reference to being sealed is Paul's way in that verse to make reference to Christians.

Regarding the title of original post, there is a difference between being saved and believing one is saved. And the difference is important—a person that believes he is saved will not seek salvation.

“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. (John 3:14-15, 1984 NASB)

The reference to John 3:14-15 indicates that everyone who looks upon the serpent will be saved (Numbers 21:4-9), but it doesn't address the issue of what happened to the wicked people who looked upon the serpent with rejection of God in their heart. The serpents' venom may have been neutralized, but that doesn't mean, analogously, that a person is saved.

It also doesn't address the matter of what happened to those that chose not to look at the serpent. They might not have if they thought they had already done it or, in their minds, some equivalent, which regarding the analogous salvation, is the case for some people (Matthew 7:21-23).

The original post assumes that what God has sealed, he will never, ever unseal under any circumstances. Quite a lot of Scripture needs to be examined to justify that idea. It is also necessary to reconcile all the verses that indicate he won't with those that say it is possible, that God might, or that God will (e.g., Ezekiel 33:18).
 
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where does the story of the Good Shepherd suggest no choice? It's a parable about the Shepherds care not the sheep's defiance
Believe me when I say that we are in agreement. However, it is the scripture most often used to support the OSAS

When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
John 10:4‭-‬5 NIV

Now this is just one example of many. When all the examples regarding this topic are collected and reviewed. IMO the argument could reasonably go both ways depending on context. I personally have found free will to be more convincing.

Here is the evidence in support of OSAS:

(a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

(d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.


Here is the evidence against OSAS:

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

John 15:5-6 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Romans 11:19-23 "You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."

Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."

Hebrews 10:38-39 "But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

Acts 20:17,28-30 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church." ... "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

1 Timothy 1:18-21 "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander"

2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."

2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"

2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."

1 Timothy 6:9-10 "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.""

James 5:19-20 "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

Revelation 2:4-5 "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."

Revelation 3:5 "'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.

Revelation 3:16-17 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked"

Ezekiel 18:24-26 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."
 
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razzelflabben

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Believe me when I say that we are in agreement. However, it is the scripture most often used to support the OSAS

When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
John 10:4‭-‬5 NIV
I don't really like that translation of this passage, but notice it says those that are His....not those that have rejected Him. IOW's it says nothing at all about eternal security other than that we should remain in Him which is the core of the Non OSAS teaching, that we need to stay or remain in Him as He is in us.
Now this is just one example of many. When all the examples regarding this topic are collected and reviewed. IMO the argument could reasonably go both ways depending on context. I personally have found free will to be more convincing.
in the end of my study I come to one nagging question I can't seem to let go of...if we cannot refuse Christ after coming to Him, why does scripture repeatedly and clearly command us to stay in Him as He is in us? Sincee God cannot lie, this is the one thing I cannot reconcile with the OSAS teaching. The many times over I have asked it of OSAS people not a single answer of reconciliation is offered.
Here is the evidence in support of OSAS:

(a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

(d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.


Here is the evidence against OSAS:

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

John 15:5-6 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Romans 11:19-23 "You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."

Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."

Hebrews 10:38-39 "But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

Acts 20:17,28-30 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church." ... "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

1 Timothy 1:18-21 "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander"

2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."

2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"

2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."

1 Timothy 6:9-10 "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.""

James 5:19-20 "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

Revelation 2:4-5 "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."

Revelation 3:5 "'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.

Revelation 3:16-17 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked"

Ezekiel 18:24-26 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."
yep thanks for sharing it.
 
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in the end of my study I come to one nagging question I can't seem to let go of...if we cannot refuse Christ after coming to Him, why does scripture repeatedly and clearly command us to stay in Him as He is in us? Sincee God cannot lie, this is the one thing I cannot reconcile with the OSAS teaching. The many times over I have asked it of OSAS people not a single answer of reconciliation is offered.
The response that I have gotten from some Calvinism were that the Gospels and epistles were written specifically to the elect and not to everyone else. However, let's assume it is correct, why then would scripture say:

My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:19‭-‬20 NIV

Notice that James is speaking to the "elect" (brothers and sisters). Yet this passage serves as a warning to those "elect" who "wander from the truth" are at risk of death.
 
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The response that I have gotten from some Calvinism were that the Gospels and epistles were written specifically to the elect and not to everyone else. However, let's assume it is correct, why then would scripture say:

My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:19‭-‬20 NIV

Notice that James is speaking to the "elect" (brothers and sisters). Yet this passage serves as a warning to those "elect" who "wander from the truth" are at risk of death.
exactly...yet no one in the OSAS community seems to be willing to address the issue and contradiction from a God who cannot lie.
 
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