To those who don't believe in eternal security...

[YouAreAwesome]

The point is this, "Savior" is a title that describes something Jesus has done. He saves. "Lord" is a title that describes who Jesus IS. When we claim to believe and accept Jesus as our Savior but disregard His "Lordship" by ignoring His commandments, we never really accepted Jesus for who He really is...the Lord. Rather, you created a man made, "golden calf" version of Jesus.

When we are "born again" our old self dies. Yet if we claim that we are born again yet refuse to "die to self" and submit to His Lordship, there is no reason to believe you were ever saved in the first place.

So are you confident you will go to heaven? Are you confident you don't sin and He is complete LORD of every little thing in your life? Or are you worried? Maybe there's something you haven't given over? Maybe you haven't really died to self? Or do you never think these things? Do you believe you've made Him complete LORD and have proven through your work that you deserve eternal life?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So do you preach the gospel?

Yes

Infact, I'll take it a step further: What is the gospel?

The good news. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

 

[CodyFaith]

The good news. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

That's not the gospel, that's part of the NT. The gospel is in the NT though.

The gospel is that whoever believes in Jesus has his sins paid for by the blood of Christ, the Passover Lamb. The gospel is that anyone can come to Christ and believe, any one's sins can be forgiven and paid for and that no sin is too great. The gospel is that Christ came for sinners, that all were fallen. The gospel is grace, that all our works can never earn our salvation and that it is purely by God's grace and mercy we are saved.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So are you confident you will go to heaven?

yes

Are you confident you don't sin and He is complete LORD of every little thing in your life?

I know I still sin. It is not the sin that causes you to lose your salvation. It's the rejection of God's gift of salvation that causes you to loose your salvation.

Or are you worried?

No

Maybe there's something you haven't given over?

Perhaps

Maybe you haven't really died to self?

It's a process. That's what it means to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)

Or do you never think these things?

Sometimes

Do you believe you've made Him complete LORD and have proven through your work that you deserve eternal life?

I think I have room for improvement. I am not perfect and salvation is a race that requires endurance to finish to the end.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

yes

I know I still sin. It is not the sin that causes you to lose your salvation. It's the rejection of God's gift of salvation that causes you to loose your salvation.


No

Perhaps

It's a process. That's what it means to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)

Sometimes

I think I have room for improvement. I am not perfect and salvation is a race that requires endurance to finish to the end.

Ok, but does our salvation rely on our "endurance"? And what do you mean by endurance?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

And what do you mean that it is a race?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

That's not the gospel, that's part of the NT. The gospel is in the NT though.

The Gospels are in the Gospels aka Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

The gospel is that whoever believes in Jesus has his sins paid for by the blood of Christ, the Passover Lamb.

Not entirely true.

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
James 2:19‭, ‬24‭-‬24‭, ‬26 ESV

The gospel is that anyone can come to Christ and believe, any one's sins can be forgiven and paid for and that no sin is too great.

Agreed

The gospel is that Christ came for sinners, that all were fallen.

Agreed

The gospel is grace, that all our works can never earn our salvation and that it is purely by God's grace and mercy we are saved.

Not entirely true.

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
James 2:‬26 ESV

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Ok, but does our salvation rely on our "endurance"?

Absolutely

And what do you mean by endurance?

Just so that I understand the context of the question. Are you asking to see if I know or do you really not know what is meant by "endurance"?

 

[aiki]

in my experience, both sides believe that many who profess Christ are not really believing unto salvation but that doesn't address passages like...Heb. 4 where we read this.... It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, away, to be brought back to repentance....notice this is not talking about those that just profess Christ but haven't seen the change that He makes in the life of the true believer.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

I don't think this passage is speaking of genuine believers. I have met many people who have been enlightened, that is, they understand the tenets of the Gospel and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," but who do not believe to the saving of their soul. These same folk participate in church life, "tasting" of the heavenly gift in a variety of ways, but never fully yielding themselves to the truths of the Gospel. They partake of the Spirit in worship, enjoying the joyful praise of the born-again, hearing and admiring the truth of God preached from the pulpit in the power of the Spirit, and even being convicted by him at times, but never coming to full faith in Jesus and to surrender to him. And those who have been this close to the saving truth of the Gospel, who have felt the conviction of God upon them and yet turn from it - as often happens to the "tares" that stand among the "wheat" - become inured to, or inoculated against, the power of the Spirit and the redeeming truth of the Gospel. As a consequence, it becomes doubly difficult to persuade such people to a renewed interest in the faith. They've "been there, done that" and have become immunized to Christianity. It is often only when they realize they never actually were saved, that they never really had the experience of Christ that the truly regenerate have had, that they begin again to seek God out.

If salvation is not a matter of choice, then it is not a matter of choice, period.

Not at all. If you read my comments carefully, you will see that I have explained that God must work first in those who are "dead in trespasses and sins" to enable them to see the truth of the Gospel, to recognize their sinfulness, and to desire to repent. But once that is accomplished by God, the person can choose to respond positively to the work God has done in them and receive salvation. Before He has done this work, they were unable even to recognize that a choice existed or was worth considering, but once enlightened, and convicted, and motivated to repent, they both see the choice and desire to make it in favor of their Saviour. So, the idea that "salvation is not a matter of choice" is not really the view I'm espousing.

So if you along with everyone else refuse to post a single scripture that says that we revoke our free will upon salvation then you automatically must be in the second group here, right? It really is that simple to refute the non OSAS theology, present a passage that says that upon salvation we forfeit our free will or you are of that group that believes that we don't have to choose to accept and follow Christ in order to be saved. Which is it?

See above. As I have said now a number of times, God saves us, we do not save ourselves. And what He has accomplished in this regard we simply haven't the power to undo. We freely choose to receive the salvation He offers to us in Christ, but having done so, we are forever after bound by and to our choice. This is no different than any of an enormous number of free choices we make throughout our lives, the consequences of which we cannot alter however much we may wish to.

Selah.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Absolutely



Just so that I understand the context of the question. Are you asking to see if I know or do you really not know what is meant by "endurance"?

I want to know your understanding of "endurance", the kind that is required for salvation.

 

[razzelflabben]

So now that Jesus saved you, have you worked hard enough to stay saved? Have been good enough? Or are you worried you need do more? Are you confident? Or unsure? Have you sinned since? Did you need to crucify Jesus again?

strawman as you all have been told

 

[razzelflabben]

The point is this, "Savior" is a title that describes something Jesus has done. He saves. "Lord" is a title that describes who Jesus IS. When we claim to believe and accept Jesus as our Savior but disregard His "Lordship" by ignoring His commandments, we never really accepted Jesus for who He really is...the Lord. Rather, you created a man made, "golden calf" version of Jesus.

When we are "born again" our old self dies. Yet if we claim that we are born again yet refuse to "die to self" and submit to His Lordship, there is no reason to believe you were ever saved in the first place.

I want to pause over this argument for just a moment....if it was impossible for the true believe to fall away, that is the one who knows and lives in the fruit of the HS, then why does scripture say it is possible and warns us not to be one of those?

 

[razzelflabben]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

I don't think this passage is speaking of genuine believers.

okay...so the believer is NOT enlightened, have not tasted the heavenly gift, and have not become partakers of the HS and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come...then please explain who these people are that have experienced these things but aren't true believers? Before you answer let me remind you of this passage....II Corinthians 1:21-22 (HCSB)
21 Now it is God who strengthens us, with you, in Christ and has anointed us. 22 He has also sealed us and given us the Spirit as a down payment

See, my Bible tells me that the HS is the guarantee of our salvation and in the Heb. passage above, they were living in and experiencing the HS and still fell away. So you need to explain why you think the indwelling HS is not the evidence of our salvation as scripture tells us it is. It's fine and good to say "I don't think..." but showing it in scripture is a very different matter and since we all know "cause I say so" isn't a good argument, please do show why we should dismiss scripture on this matter to agree with you.

I have met many people who have been enlightened, that is, they understand the tenets of the Gospel and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," but who do not believe to the saving of their soul.

that is knowledge not enlightenment...Ephesians 1:18; Hebrews 10:32 tell us that it is more than knowledge which you are trying to say here. What is more troubling for your pov is that the passage in question talks about returning to...how does one who has been "enlightened" even in your view stop having knowledge and then return to it...did they have brain damage? Come on...you can do better than simply trying to reinvent scripture.

These same folk participate in church life, "tasting" of the heavenly gift in a variety of ways, but never fully yielding themselves to the truths of the Gospel.

so now your claim is that church where sin abounds is the heavenly gift? Really...Look at Luke 11:13 where good gifts are equated to the HS.

They partake of the Spirit in worship, enjoying the joyful praise of the born-again, hearing and admiring the truth of God preached from the pulpit in the power of the Spirit, and even being convicted by him at times, but never coming to full faith in Jesus and to surrender to him.

so, in your version of this passage, the world is the church and thus a good gift from God? How many people are hurt by the church every single day? How many people swear they will never step foot in another church because they are worse then the world? It happens all the time and is one of the biggest hinderance for most people to come to Christ. In fact just last night I was counseling a woman who has been devastated by the church and the number of stories alone I have of the rampant evil in the church is staggering. And yet your claim is that the evils in the church are a heavenly gift that these non believers are experiencing...wow...okay go on, so far I have shown you that your version is not in line with scripture.

And those who have been this close to the saving truth of the Gospel, who have felt the conviction of God upon them and yet turn from it - as often happens to the "tares" that stand among the "wheat" - become inured to, or inoculated against, the power of the Spirit and the redeeming truth of the Gospel.

and yet, let me quote this portion of the passage for you...and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit . How can one be inoculated against the power of the Spirit and the redeeming truth of the gospel when they have become partakers of that very same HS you just claimed they couldn't partake of?

As a consequence, it becomes doubly difficult to persuade such people to a renewed interest in the faith. They've "been there, done that" and have become immunized to Christianity. It is often only when they realize they never actually were saved, that they never really had the experience of Christ that the truly regenerate have had, that they begin again to seek God out.

and that means that the most troubling part of your view is that you had to rewrite the passage in order to justify your pov. At least some OSASers are brave enough to take it out of context not just rewrite it to suit their belief.

Not at all. If you read my comments carefully, you will see that I have explained that God must work first in those who are "dead in trespasses and sins" to enable them to see the truth of the Gospel, to recognize their sinfulness, and to desire to repent. But once that is accomplished by God, the person can choose to respond positively to the work God has done in them and receive salvation. Before He has done this work, they were unable even to recognize that a choice existed or was worth considering, but once enlightened, and convicted, and motivated to repent, they both see the choice and desire to make it in favor of their Saviour. So, the idea that "salvation is not a matter of choice" is not really the view I'm espousing.

okay...this is all confusing to me because we have choice but we don't have a choice which is not like the example I would give of having no other choice...so please show in scripture where our God given right to choose is taken from us upon salvation. You see, there is a huge difference between compulsion and not having a choice. I believe that scripture talks about the HS compelling us but not the idea that our choice is removed.

See above. As I have said now a number of times, God saves us, we do not save ourselves. And what He has accomplished in this regard we simply haven't the power to undo. We freely choose to receive the salvation He offers to us in Christ, but having done so, we are forever after bound by and to our choice. This is no different than any of an enormous number of free choices we make throughout our lives, the consequences of which we cannot alter however much we may wish to.

Selah.

I understand the OSAS version of salvation but you have and continue to fail to evidence some of the points in scripture. Again, the position can be made in scripture but you fail to 1. reconcile all of scripture as is illustrated above and 2. fail to show in scripture some of the finer points of your belief, like God revoking our gift of free will. Until you address these two aspects of the belief, you not dealing with the truth of scripture wherever that truth leads us on the conclusion of the matter.

 

[razzelflabben]

So are you confident you will go to heaven? Are you confident you don't sin and He is complete LORD of every little thing in your life? Or are you worried? Maybe there's something you haven't given over? Maybe you haven't really died to self? Or do you never think these things? Do you believe you've made Him complete LORD and have proven through your work that you deserve eternal life?

how about proven through the evidence of the indwelling HS rather than works per say, as the Heb. passage tells us in conjunction with the Ephesians 1:13...I mean why make it about works when the argument is NOT one of works?

 

[razzelflabben]

I think I have room for improvement. I am not perfect and salvation is a race that requires endurance to finish to the end.

actually it does require endurance...Matthew 24:13; Matthew 10:22; Luke 21:19

sorry...I was distracted and read that wrong...my apology...amen and amen

 

[aiki]

okay...so the believer is NOT enlightened, have not tasted the heavenly gift, and have not become partakers of the HS and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come...then please explain who these people are that have experienced these things but aren't true believers?

You appear here to be responding before actually reading everything I've written. Not a good way to understand another's perspective.

See, my Bible tells me that the HS is the guarantee of our salvation and in the Heb. passage above, they were living in and experiencing the HS and still fell away.

No, I don't think the people the passage describes were living in the Spirit. They had "tasted" of the heavenly gift, and the good word of God, and the powers to come, and were "partakers" of the Spirit, but one can do all of these things without ever actually being saved. I described in my last post such people, the tares among the wheat, who are nearly identical to the wheat but yet are not wheat.

One can experience the Holy Spirit in a second-hand way, being a partaker, a taster, of spiritual life, without actually entering into it. This is what tares do. They are spiritual hangers-on, counterfeit believers, who partake of the life of the Church without being genuine born-again followers of Christ. They join in worship of God, and sit under the Spirit-filled teaching of the word of God, and participate in ministries of the church but have no spiritual life of their own. This is what it means to be merely a "taster" of the things of God rather than, say, a "joint-heir with Christ" or "a new creature in Christ."

It's fine and good to say "I don't think..." but showing it in scripture is a very different matter

Right back at you. I have interpreted the Hebrews 6 passage without doing violence to any of what it says. I have explained its meaning, relating it to real-life examples. Now, you may not like my interpretation of the passage but by itself your dislike does not constitute a refutation of my interpretation. So far, apart from some poorly-associated verses, dislike is all you seem to be offering...

that is knowledge not enlightenment...Ephesians 1:18; Hebrews 10:32 tell us that it is more than knowledge which you are trying to say here.

There is no enlightenment without knowledge. What's more, there are levels of understanding, levels of enlightenment, people may have (He. 5:12, 13) concerning spiritual truth. Some understanding may be very superficial which is the sort of enlightenment I think is described in the Hebrews 6 passage. I have known many people who have understood the Gospel but who have not responded positively to it and placed their trust in Christ. These are the people described in Hebrews 6.

What is more troubling for your pov is that the passage in question talks about returning to...how does one who has been "enlightened" even in your view stop having knowledge and then return to it...did they have brain damage?

Falling away from the truth does not necessitate brain damage or a forgetting of the truth. Where do you get this thinking from? Read Romans 1. It is because people know the truth but reject it and ignore it that they come under God's judgment. I see people doing this all the time. I have a friend who is a long-time smoker. He knows his smoking habit is cancer-producing and a factor in strokes and high blood pressure. He understands the danger to himself cigarettes are but he smokes them anyway. This is exactly what those who fall away from God's truth do. No brain damage or forgetfulness required, only a willful rebellion against the truth.

Come on...you can do better than simply trying to reinvent scripture.

No reinvention on my part, only an accurate and proper interpretation of the passage. Can't say the same for you, however...So far, your responses have been surprisingly weak in their substance (though not in their tone).

so, in your version of this passage, the world is the church and thus a good gift from God?

That's not what I said, nor is such a conclusion implicit in my words. The Church, as Jesus said, contains worldly people (Matt 13:24-30) but this does not make the World the Church or vice versa.

And yet your claim is that the evils in the church are a heavenly gift that these non believers are experiencing...

Nope. This is your misconstruction of my words but this isn't what I have actually said. No where have I even hinted that the tares in the Church are a heavenly gift. Do you always argue in this blatant Strawman fashion? It makes your argument look silly, you know.

and yet, let me quote this portion of the passage for you...and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit . How can one be inoculated against the power of the Spirit and the redeeming truth of the gospel when they have become partakers of that very same HS you just claimed they couldn't partake of?

As I said, I don't think being a partaker of the Spirit in the context of the passage is what you assume it is. The word "partaker" is qualified by the word "tasted" (which is used twice, before and after "partaker") which does not carry the sense of total regeneration that we find describing the effect of genuine salvation in other places in Scripture (ie. 2 Cor. 5:17).

I don't think the passage is describing people who have partaken of the Spirit in a truly spiritually-regenerative manner but who have, instead, only been exposed in a second-hand way to His power and have been under His conviction but have resisted it. Such exposure to the things of God sometimes has the effect of inoculating people to the faith. Surely you have encountered such people. I know I have - many times.

and that means that the most troubling part of your view is that you had to rewrite the passage in order to justify your pov.

Nope, just interpret differently than you have. There is nothing you have offered so far that obliges me in any way to adjust my understanding of the Hebrews 6 passage.

At least some OSASers are brave enough to take it out of context not just rewrite it to suit their belief.

Are you trying to be obnoxious or is this unpleasant sniping something you do unconsciously?

okay...this is all confusing to me because we have choice but we don't have a choice which is not like the example I would give of having no other choice...

Now I think you're just being willfully obtuse. I have explained quite clearly my thinking. If you are having trouble following it, take some time to read my comments again.

so please show in scripture where our God given right to choose is taken from us upon salvation.

Why should I? I have not said that it is. This is just your misconstruction of my words - again.

I understand the OSAS version of salvation but you have and continue to fail to evidence some of the points in scripture.

What points are those, exactly? So far, your counter to my point of view has consisted of being willfully obtuse and/or purposefully misconstruing my words. Telling me, then, that I am "failing" with Scripture is, well, amusing.

And insofar as understanding the OSAS position is concerned, I have to say that you have shown just the opposite in your conversation with me. Instead, all you seem able to describe of the OSAS position are Strawman versions of it.

Again, the position can be made in scripture but you fail to 1. reconcile all of scripture as is illustrated above

Nope. You haven't even come close to showing I have failed in this regard.

2. fail to show in scripture some of the finer points of your belief, like God revoking our gift of free will.

Nope again. I have shown what you say I haven't. The problem is you're so steeped in your bias on this matter you can't fight clear of it sufficiently to actually take in what I'm saying.

Until you address these two aspects of the belief, you not dealing with the truth of scripture wherever that truth leads us on the conclusion of the matter.

Do you really think making these sorts of declarations obliges anyone else to agree? I get this is what you think, but you have accounted for your view so poorly and attacked mine so weakly that your statement here is just...kinda' sad.

Selah.

 

[razzelflabben]

You appear here to be responding before actually reading everything I've written. Not a good way to understand another's perspective.

No, I don't think the people the passage describes were living in the Spirit. They had "tasted" of the heavenly gift, and the good word of God, and the powers to come, and were "partakers" of the Spirit,

how pray tell do you partake of the Holy Spirit without belief unto salvation? Just for the record, your answer needs to include scripture cause I don't know of any way to partake of the HS without being a true believer from a biblical perspective.

but one can do all of these things without ever actually being saved. I described in my last post such people, the tares among the wheat, who are nearly identical to the wheat but yet are not wheat.

you did not show how they were partaking of the HS a Spirit that is given to true believers...you made a line of excuses and dismissed my rebuttal but you did not evidence in any way how one would partake of the HS that is given to all true believers without being a true believer. I am waiting for you to do this and then we can move on to other passages that say similar things.

One can experience the Holy Spirit in a second-hand way,being a partaker, a taster, of spiritual life, without actually entering into it. This is what tares do. They are spiritual hangers-on, counterfeit believers, who partake of the life of the Church without being genuine born-again followers of Christ. They join in worship of God, and sit under the Spirit-filled teaching of the word of God, and participate in ministries of the church but have no spiritual life of their own. This is what it means to be merely a "taster" of the things of God rather than, say, a "joint-heir with Christ" or "a new creature in Christ."

experiencing and partaking are not the same thing nor is being a partaker and a "taster" as I will show you...shall I call up the websters definition for you? Let's look at some key words from the Lexicon, shall we? That is how any good study of the word begins after all...

enlighten...

1. to give light, to shine
   
   
2. to enlighten, light up, illumine
   
   
3. to bring to light, render evident
   
   1. to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all
      
4. to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
   
   
   1. to instruct, to inform, teach
      
      
   2. to give understanding to
      

Notice that definition does NOT match yours and tells us that this is a true believer...but moving on...let's look into heavenly gift...heavenly means

1. existing in heaven
   
   1. things that take place in heaven
      
      
   2. the heavenly regions
      
      1. heaven itself, the abode of God and angels
         
         
      2. the lower heavens, of the stars
         
         
      3. the heavens, of the clouds
         
   3. the heavenly temple or sanctuary
      
2. of heavenly origin or nature
   

so, no, it cannot mean church for the church is not in heaven at the moment.

next we come to partakers...

1. sharing in, partaking
   
   
2. a partner (in a work, office, dignity)
   

Notice that this is not as you proclaim experiencing but rather it is sharing in, that is in partner with...now please present a single passage that shows a non believer sharing in or partnering with the HS.

for space we will leave the rest because you see, there is a right way and a wrong way to interpret scripture. The right way is to study it with intent to know what God intends through translation, the HS, and the totality of scripture. The wrong way is to twist it to say what you want it to say. I just showed you that your pov of view is wrong because of translation. Now....that being said, let me make something very clear to you. God has given every man the gift of choice, that includes but is not limited to you and what you want to believe. That being said, you are free to believe what you want but unless you bring scripture that rightly divides the word as I have done here, all you are doing is preaching your ideas and beliefs and not God's at all. So think carefully before you respond. You will either be teaching the words of God through rightly dividing the word or you will be teaching the words of man and a wise person knows which is acceptable in God's eyes to teach.

Right back at you. I have interpreted the Hebrews 6 passage without doing violence to any of what it says. I have explained its meaning, relating it to real-life examples. Now, you may not like my interpretation of the passage but by itself your dislike does not constitute a refutation of my interpretation. So far, apart from some poorly-associated verses, dislike is all you seem to be offering...

no dear you have not...you have given your opinion of what it says and failed to back it up with anything that deals with scripture. Now that is your right but don't claim to have done something you didn't because that would be lie and in Christ there is no lie. In order to back it up you need translation and totality of scripture both of which I gave to you.

As to disliking your view, heck I think anyone who is being honest would love to believe that we are saved no matter what after we come to Christ. There is comfort in knowing that we can do whatever we like and still be saved, which is the natural consequence of the OSAS theology, but that simply is not what scripture teaches at least as per any discussion I have had to date with OSAS ers. I am always open to the possiblity that I am wrong. I am always willing to change my notions to fit scripture, but saying, let me tell you what I want it to say is not the same thing as a careful biblical study that reveals God's heart and intentions for His people. So by all means, if you want to help me study it and find your version in the passage do so, that way I can confrom my beliefs to His word, but just making excuses for a different way to interpret it isn't going to cut it. The eartly church believed there was only one interpretation because there was only ONE God...I believe the same. Show in the word of God what you are saying so we can examine it or don't but know this, in me, you have the perfect opportunity to prove me wrong, you just have to do it through careful and correct interpretation not some "cause I believe this..." song and dance.

There is no enlightenment without knowledge. What's more, there are levels of understanding, levels of enlightenment, people may have (He. 5:12, 13) concerning spiritual truth. Some understanding may be very superficial which is the sort of enlightenment I think is described in the Hebrews 6 passage. I have known many people who have understood the Gospel but who have not responded positively to it and placed their trust in Christ. These are the people described in Hebrews 6.

notice what scripture says about knowledge Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction....a wisdom that leads to salvation I might add
but then again, the word in question is not knowledge but enlightenment and above you will see the definition for the word.

Falling away from the truth does not necessitate brain damage or a forgetting of the truth. Where do you get this thinking from? Read Romans 1. It is because people know the truth but reject it and ignore it that they come under God's judgment. I see people doing this all the time. I have a friend who is a long-time smoker. He knows his smoking habit is cancer-producing and a factor in strokes and high blood pressure. He understands the danger to himself cigarettes are but he smokes them anyway. This is exactly what those who fall away from God's truth do. No brain damage or forgetfulness required, only a willful rebellion against the truth.

that isn't what you said...you said that enlightenment is knowledge not the turning away from knowledge...but, I'll give you the point for clarification here. But let me ask you this...why does it say falling away not turning from? There are 24ish passages in the new testament alone that talk about turning from. Isn't it curious to you that the wording would be changed here if the intent was the same? Just saying this is where the Lexicon if very handy.

No reinvention on my part, only an accurate and proper interpretation of the passage. Can't say the same for you, however...So far, your responses have been surprisingly weak in their substance (though not in their tone).

well since I am the only one offering biblical interpretation not personal interpretation your point and attempt here to get under my skin is meaningless. If you want to present biblical interpretation, I'm totally down with that.

That's not what I said, nor is such a conclusion implicit in my words. The Church, as Jesus said, contains worldly people (Matt 13:24-30) but this does not make the World the Church or vice versa.

we all know that and agree with that. In fact, if you were using the bible to interpret the passage in question you should have talked about the true Church verses the church, the only problem with that biblical truth in conjuction with your view point is that it negates your point completely. You see, the real Church (capital C) is all true believers. But your post clearly talks about the earthly church and as such falls apart under the scrutiny that all biblical truth can hold up under. IOWs of course the church is full of hypocrites, but that very fact makes your interpretation of this passage flawed, it would only work if we were talking about the big C Church, aka all true believer, which you clearly said is not what you believe.

Nope. This is your misconstruction of my words but this isn't what I have actually said. No where have I even hinted that the tares in the Church are a heavenly gift. Do you always argue in this blatant Strawman fashion? It makes your argument look silly, you know.

???? You believe the heavenly gifts are things like praise and prayer and stuff like that which is found in the church. I showed above where that is a flawed idea on several levels.

You seem to be getting angry, maybe after this post you should take some time to pray and worship before responding so that God's peace is reigning supreme over all our communications.

As I said, I don't think being a partaker of the Spirit in the context of the passage is what you assume it is. The word "partaker" is qualified by the word "tasted" (which is used twice, before and after "partaker") which does not carry the sense of total regeneration that we find describing the effect of genuine salvation in other places in Scripture (ie. 2 Cor. 5:17).

I focused on the word partaker, let's see what the Lexicon says about "tasted" ...first the word tasted is associated with the heavenly gifts and with the word of God and it means ....

1. to taste, to try the flavour of
   
   
2. to taste
   
   1. i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
      
      
   2. to feel, make trial of, experience
      
3. to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat
   

notice that it isn't just a causual acknowledgement but an experience, a taking nourishment from, a partaking of....

I don't think the passage is describing people who have partaken of the Spirit in a truly spiritually-regenerative manner but who have, instead, only been exposed in a second-hand way to His power and have been under His conviction but have resisted it. Such exposure to the things of God sometimes has the effect of inoculating people to the faith. Surely you have encountered such people. I know I have - many times.

that is what you believe, but the passage says differently as I have shown you.

Nope, just interpret differently than you have. There is nothing you have offered so far that obliges me in any way to adjust my understanding of the Hebrews 6 passage.

why would you think I was trying to convince you otherwise? That is not my job. My job is to communicate and that is what I did and am doing. From a biblical perspective your interpretation does NOT line up with scripture as per a study that rightly divides the word. What you do with that is solely between you and God. What is between you and I is any evidence you might have that would show my interpetation in contradiction with 1. translational issues and 2. the totality of scripture.

 

[DingDing]

That's not the gospel, that's part of the NT. The gospel is in the NT though.

The gospel is that whoever believes in Jesus has his sins paid for by the blood of Christ, the Passover Lamb. The gospel is that anyone can come to Christ and believe, any one's sins can be forgiven and paid for and that no sin is too great. The gospel is that Christ came for sinners, that all were fallen. The gospel is grace, that all our works can never earn our salvation and that it is purely by God's grace and mercy we are saved.

Does your interpretation of the gospel include the notion that people, by their actions, can reject God's grace? Or, in other words, does your gospel interpretation say that a person's behavior is totally irrelevant to where they end up eternally?

 

[DingDing]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

I don't think this passage is speaking of genuine believers. ...

I'm sorry, but I think it does. A non-believer can't fall away - he can not loose what he never had.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'm sorry, but I think it does. A non-believer can't fall away - he can not loose what he never had.

that doesn't deal with what the passage says about the one falling away...you know things like partaking of the HS and tasting the heavenly gifts etc.