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Then the question is this. If God leads us to salvation, and it is God's will that none should perish (2 Peter: 3-9), then why isn't everyone lead to salvation? Is 2 Peter 3:9 a lie, or is God somehow powerless to save everyone because something is thwarting His plans?
it's just the logical conclusion of what you said....so, let's talk it through
exactly...but it is the nature conclusion to what you said about OSAS. See, the non OSASer believes that since we choose to accept Jesus we can also choose to "unaccept" Him. Your post seemed to indicate that that was not possible. That leaves two options, 1. you have scripture that says we cannot choose anything once we come to Christ. Which has been asked for a dozen and a half times and no one even attempts to provide a passage that says our free will is revoked upon salvation, or 2. our salvation in the first place does not require us to accept or choose to accept it. that is the two choices. Now I do know that some groups believe the second, that God in His Love would not ever allow anyone to "die in their sins" because that wouldn't be love. So if you along with everyone else refuse to post a single scripture that says that we revoke our free will upon salvation then you automatically must be in the second group here, right? It really is that simple to refute the non OSAS theology, present a passage that says that upon salvation we forfeit our free will or you are of that group that believes that we don't have to choose to accept and follow Christ in order to be saved. Which is it?
actually what you said in your post draws this conclusion. If salvation is not a matter of choice, then it is not a matter of choice, period. That means one of two things is true, 1. choice is not required for salvation or 2. we loss our right to choose upon salvation...which do you choose? and once you choose which of the two you are going with, I will ask you to evidence it in scripture. I'm kind of that way, I require scripture (the totality of scripture) as evidence of things that are controversial about God.
I brought this up before and no one really commented so let me point it out again....according to Romans 8, what are we predestined to....? "to be conformed to the image of His son...." that is what completes man, becoming HIS image. This is true of all mankind...to be fulfilled, to be who God created us to be, we need to be conformed to His image. Many people twist this passage to mean salvation, but that doesn't say that. In fact, who did HE NOT "foreknew"? His word says that HE knit us all together in our mothers womb...that is a foreknowing. it is important to understand what the passage really does say.
Now, when I brought this up previously I was asked how I came to the conclusion that you were saying that salvation isn't a choice...let me quote you here, "and thus quite unable to choose to be saved." That is where I get the idea from...from you saying that is what you believe. Yet we can post counter passages like...John 1:12; John 3:18; Romans 8:14; and many others which all indicate a choice. Now, this is NOT to say that God is not working in us before we accept Him but rather it is to say that God in His wisdom gave us the ability to choose and that is the sticking point when it comes to OSAS belief. If the discussion is to move forward at all, the OSAS er must show that there is no choice when it comes to salvation and you have not done that here nor have you shown in the totality of scripture how to reconcile the passages that indicate choice with those that you claim show none.
so you could answer this posters questions but not mine when I asked the same things?
when it says that we need to remain in Him as He is in us, it kind of is teaching that we help to maintain our salvation...John 15:4...scripture teaching the process of salvation or the maintenance of our salvation would be another way to say it, is kind of like an symbiotic relationship of HS power combined with our efforts for an unbeatable combination. Even Luke 10:27 tells us to Love the Lord with all our strength...that sounds to me like we have a job to do when it comes to our salvation, to actually Love with all that we are is something we contribute.
yep...not in question that I know of.
two important truths of scripture you are missing here. 1. you ask how can a crucified self return to the old nature...how can a dead come to life? You see, when it comes to the spirit, the flesh rules don't apply, scripture is clear on this. Thus you can't play the logic game and expect to know truth, rather you have to reconcile all the scriptures together to understand God's intent. 2. The HS cannot be overpowered but no one is talking about overpowering the HS. Rather they are talking about living in the God given gift of choice.
and...what? did you stop being flesh and blood when you came to Christ? What of the scripture that tells us the thoughts of a man's heart are only evil continually? Does the believer never fall prey to sin after salvation? Why are we told to confess and repent if there is no such thing as sin after coming to Christ? The real heart of my problem with OSAS theology is that it requires me to leave out too much scripture to come to the same belief and that is something I refuse to do.
let's talk about this a moment, from this comment I am not sure you understand what the new nature according to scripture means. Luke 10:27 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don't do what you want.
not what scripture says...maybe you can provide the passages that support this claim...in fact, as I showed you, scripture says that even with a new nature there is a battle raging within over who wins first place in our hearts and minds.
yep...but that isn't what is being argued against.
in my experience, both sides believe that many who profess Christ are not really believing unto salvation but that doesn't address passages like...Heb. 4 where we read this.... It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, away, to be brought back to repentance....notice this is not talking about those that just profess Christ but haven't seen the change that He makes in the life of the true believer. As well as other passages that say similar things.
yep...but not addressing the issue of the difference between OSAS and NON OSAS belief. I mean, it's good to talk about what we agree on, but what about dealing with where there is disagreement so that we can glorify God with accepting His words and not our own?
again, more about what we agree on and refusal to address where we disagree?
South Bound said:
the problem is...this all sounds wise and noble but in reality doesn't address any of the disagreements in the two different doctrines and instead addresses agreements....how about instead of making posts that sound wise in your own eyes and to those who agree with your doctrine, you all address the disagreements as they are presented and how the totality of scripture reconciles your pov?
