Tithing/Speaking in Tongues

[Andrew]

"If you want to believe satan is still alive, that's your fantasy!Ê"

No Franklin, YOU live in a fantasy world. I just wonder if there are any other Christians here in agreement with you -- that Satan and his cohorts (demons) are dead and gone -- non-existent. Prove it with scripture!

Louis,

"a;wekjr;aiejpianoiptghaioewhtioawejopirhawerawerawepiorhpawejiraweji okay..I just wrote "in tongues" it says God is great. *rolls eyes*"

you cant back up your claim with scripture that a person who speaks in tongues can't intepret also, so you just talk rubbish and roll your eyes -- are u posessed or what?

aggie03,
"so the arrival of the perfect wasn't referring to Him.Ê It was referring to His word, the Bible."

read on ... "Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood."

so you claim to understand fully, as fully as the Lord understands you? Well I'm not there yet.

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by Andrew
"If you want to believe satan is still alive, that's your fantasy!Ê" No Franklin, YOU live in a fantasy world. I just wonder if there are any other Christians here in agreement with you -- that Satan and his cohorts (demons) are dead and gone -- non-existent. Prove it with scripture! 

No Andrew, it's not me who is living in a fantasy world, I'm living in the world of reality because Jesus was a very realistic person and I am willing to take Him at His word as the truth.  I'll share some scriptural proof with you but first allow me to ask you some realistic questions about this boogy man called satan and I'm sure you will be able to answer them quite easily.  

Did Jesus come to bind Satan and destroy his power?

Would it disturb you to know that Satan can have no power over you?

Would it be upsetting to know that God has fulfilled his word and gives everlasting life now?

Is it unsettling to know we can truly overcome the world?

Would your life be more confident and victorious if you knew that Satan had no authority to accuse you before God?

Is it frightening to know there is no demon possession?

Is it dangerous to believe that our Savior has accomplished what he came to do--destroy Satan and his works?

Is it heretical to believe the Christian has eternal life, and Satan cannot touch him?


Does it destroy faith to know that God has fulfilled his word and restored man to himself despite Satan's best worst? efforts?

Does it destroy hope to know we can overcome the world because Jesus did?

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.  (Hebrews 9:26)

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;  (Hebrews 2:14) also, 1 Corinthians 15:23-28;

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.  (Revelation 12:12)

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jn 3:8) 

Andrew, I showed some scripture to you, now it's up to you, what does the authority of scripture mean to you?  When the scripture I've just shared with speaks for itself, what does it tell you?  You must be honest with your answer. Ask yourself this question: When the word of God shatters your cherished beliefs, are you willing to be shattered no matter how painful it is?  God's truth should be more important to us than personal beliefs and loyalty to that truth than loyalty to traditions and the commandments of men.  As followers of Christ we should not cling onto personal interpretations for fear of looking stupid in the eyes of others.... once a matter is clear (spiritual and scriptual) then we should be willing to change as fast as possible, relying solely upon the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.  Are you willing to make that change? 






 

 

[aggie03]

Originally posted by Andrew
"read on ... "Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood."

so you claim to understand fully, as fully as the Lord understands you? Well I'm not there yet.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make - I never said I understand everything fully.  In the verse that you cited that's Paul talking about himself. 

 

[allieisme]

Originally posted by Andrew
allieisme,

Sent you a PM on 2 tongues mp3 sermon extracts, if u are interested.

 

Just wondering if you got my PM reply? I'm not sure if anyone ever gets them, I think sometimes it doesnt work, let me know!  Thanks Andrew.

 

[aggie03]

If Satan was killed when Christ was crucified, then why is he mentioned again later as doing things that only a living being could do? This would seem to put contradictions into the Bible. Please tell me if I've misunderstood what you meant, but I don't think that any belief that causes contradictions to arise in the perfect word of God can be sound.

 

[cougan]

I will offer these words from a source of mine on the subject of demon possesion.

"In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
 "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every once of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hand? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zech. 13:1-6)
 The subject of demon possession is a difficult one. I do not pretend to know a great deal about it. I do know that the Bible teaches that there were people possessed of demons and that Christ and the apostles cast out demons. Any attempt to weaken this by saying that the recorded accounts were the result of Christ's accepting a superstition which existed during the first century must be totally rejected by those who accept his diety.
 Zechariah 13 points to Christ as a fountain, an atonement for sin. Verse 2 is a prophecy of the end of demon possession. Since it took a miraculous operation of the Spirit to cast out demons, the cessation of the miraculous would have left no means for dealing with demons if they continued beyond the period of miracles. The atonement of Christ limited the work of Satan (Matt. 12:22-30). The casting out of demons demonstrated the power of Christ over Satan. The apostles' casting out of demons demonstrated their apostolic power, proved the gospel they preached, and confirmed the claim, of Christ. When the gospel :was revealed, the faith "once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3), there was no further need of the miraculous. In the passing away of the miraculous, there also would be the cessation of demon possession.
 Notice that Zechariah not only foresaw the passing of demon possession, but also the passing of the prophets. Since prophecy stands for the entire miraculous operation of the Spirit, one should not be surprised that Zechariah combines the passing of both, the prophecy and demon possession.
 Verses 3 through 6 picture a time when there would be no genuine prophets. Thus, any claim to be a prophet would be an evident lie. Since the prophet would cease, any attempt to prophesy would produce shame. The garment worn by prophets would no longer be used as a means of deceit by false prophets. The garment identified the prophet. None wearing the garment of a prophet signified a time when there would be no genuine prophet to counterfeit. Verses 5 and 6 show the refusal to make any claim to prophesy. When questioned as to the wounds in his hands, he would lie about it by saying he had been wounded in the house of his friends. There was a practice among heathen priests of cutting themselves while attempting to prophesy, as seen in I Kings 18:28: "And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them."
 This entire section of the book of Zechariah is intended to foretell the cessation of the prophet. The picture of no one being willing to admit to being a prophet establishes this fact. The truth of the matter is, if men believe the Bible, the claim on the part of any to be a prophet or to have any miraculous gift would be marked as a lie.
 Any claim to speak in the. name of the Lord today by direct operation of the Holy Spirit is a lie (Zech. 13:3). The claim to speak in a tongue by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit is a lie. Zechariah foresaw the end of phophecy, and with it the end of the miraculous operation of the Holy Spirit. Whom shall I believe: one to whom the word of the Lord came, who is called a prophet and whose prophecy is dated (Zech. 1:1), or Pentecostals who falsely claim to have miraculous gifts? It is not difficult for me to accept both Daniel and Zechariah who, by inspiration, foresaw the cessation of the prophets, and with them the passing of miraculous gifts. Daniel 9 and Zechariah 13 confirm Paul in I Corinthians 1:5-8 and I Corinthians 13:1-13. Thus do both the Old and the New Testaments deny the claim today of Pentecostal speaking in tongues.

 

[Andrew]

allieisme,

nope, didnt get any PMs from you. so do u still want the mp3 audio sermon files?

 

[Andrew]

Franklin,

I agree with you that Satan's power was stripped off by Jesus. But that's not what we are arguing about.

You said Satan's been killed and that he doesnt exist anymore and that there are no demons/devils. That's just plain nonsense. And the scriptures you gave dont prove anything at all -- that Satan does not exist anymore.

We read in Revelations that Satan will be bound and cast into the Lake of Fire after the 1000 yr reign. So how is it he has ceased to exist?

BTW also showed you solid clear cut scriptures like

1Pe 5:8* Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

2Co 2:11* Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

This was written to the church after Christ's ascension. so when did the devil and his demons cease to exist?

John 10:10 -- The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I still see stealing, killing, destruction, like Sept 11.

 

[9-iron]

1 Corinthians 10:20

"Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrafice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons."

Paul was talking to the Corinthians about idolatry. If demons no longer exist, then why was he telling the Corinthians no to have fellowship with them????

1 Corinthians 5:5

There was one that was committing sexual immorality by sleeping with his father's wife. Verse 5 is Paul's response to the man not repenting.

"deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that hi spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ"

Again if the Satan know longer exist, Why would Paul command them to deliver this man to Satan????

Acts 5:3

Story of Ananias & Sapphira keeping back part of the proceeds from saling their land and lying about it. Here is how Peter addresses them"

verse 3 "But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?"

If Satan was dead, why did Peter address Ananias about Satan filling his heart????

Yes Christ destroyed Satan 2,000 years ago, HE also died for my sins 2,000 years ago. Are my sins no more in the sight of God, yes, if Satan defeated, yes. Do I continue to sin, yes, does Satan continue to wreck havoc in peoples lives, yes. You have to remember we are limited in time and space in this world, but God has no limitations, Satan is destroyed already, but we can't see it in the realm we live in. The gets really complicated and I don't have all the answers, but clearly the scriptures point to Satan still being alive.

 

[franklin]

   Originally posted by Andrew
  I agree with you that Satan's power was stripped off by Jesus. But that's not what we are arguing about.

Andrew, It's not a matter wheather you agree with me or not besides the scripture doesn't say satan's power was stripped as you say, it was destroyed!  There is a big difference from someone who has his authority or power stripped then that of being destoyed.  I'll quote the scripture for you again: "that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"  (Hebrews 2:14)  When you keep the scripture in it's historical setting this has already occurred in the lifetime of those that heard this message first.  Also look at 1Cor 15:26.... "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."  Death, satan or the devil go hand in hand..... I'll ask you Andrew again, was Jesus victorious when He destroyed death or not? 

  
You said Satan's been killed and that he doesnt exist anymore and that there are no demons/devils. That's just plain nonsense. And the scriptures you gave dont prove anything at all [/B]

So Andrew, what do you use to prove what you believe in?  You challeged me to prove what I was talking about with scripture, and I showed you the scriptures that validates satan defeat and now you tell me the scripture doesn't prove anything!  At the same time you haven't proven anything you believe in with any scripture!  Unless it was taken out of context and twisted to say what YOU wanted it to say!  Why don't you make up your mind, what does the authority of scriputre mean to you as I'm asking you that same question again!  I don't like the games you are trying to play and it just doesn't wash!  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.  (2Tim 3:16,17)   Read the first part of Tim, Andrew, it says inspiration of God doesn't it?  NOT the inspriation of MEN now does it? 

   We read in Revelations that Satan will be bound and cast into the Lake of Fire after the 1000 yr reign. So how is it he has ceased to exist? [/B]

thousands, tens of thousands etc, throughout the bible have always been used symbolically to mean completeness and rarely to be taken literally... you just proved the point by quoting Rev this proves that he has been destroyed! 

   1Pe 5:8* Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: ?[/B]

 

The actual defeat of satan did not take place yet when Peter wrote this inspiration, he was preparing them for that time that was still future FOR THEM .... it was not written TO US! 

  
2Co 2:11* Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
This was written to the church after Christ's ascension. so when did the devil and his demons cease to exist?[/B]

Bingo!  Satan was still in existence until the final destruction and judgement on national Israel a number of years before the end of the first century.

     John 10:10 -- The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
I still see stealing, killing, destruction, like Sept 11. [/B]

Once again you are removing the historical setting and context from the scripture and moving it thousands of years future which is not properly applying biblical hermeneutics and as for sin still existing today, go back and read my post that you are responding to and as for 911, I suppose those terrorists weren't responsible for their own actions for their mass murder, it was really the devil that made them do it then!  They didn't need any outside help from satan or anyone else to commit their murderous task on that sorriful day!  Once again I will ask you one simple question from the list I posted yesterday:

Is it dangerous to believe that our Savior has accomplished what he came to do--destroy Satan and his works?

Andrew, why is that so hard for you to accept?  Go back and read your bible in it's proper context more often and you'll be amazed at what God's word will reveal to you!  


 

 

[9-iron]

"The actual defeat of satan did not take place yet when Peter wrote this inspiration, he was preparing them for that time that was still future FOR THEM .... it was not written TO US!" 

 

WHAT?????, where in scripture did you come up with that???, you said he was defeated by Christ. So what you are saying now it wasn't a immediate defeat???? Either he was defeated by Christ at the cross or he wasn't defeated at all!!!!!!!!!!! How can say that part of the New Testament is and some is not written to us???? Either you believe it the Word in full or you might as well throw the whole thing out the window. If that is your logic, then when Paul say salvation is also for the Gentiles then it would have had to been for the Gentiles living when Paul was still on earth.

 

Bingo!  Satan was still in existence until the final destruction and judgement on national Israel a number of years before the end of the first century.

The last time I checked Isreal was still a nation. And where is that found in scripture???

I stated some scriptures above that directly state that Satan was still around after Christ left the prescence of the disciples. Based on what you have said there is a contradiction in the scriptures. If God's Word is infallible then there can be NO contradiction!!!! You have challenge Andrew to base his believes on sound biblical scripture, but then you have pulled totally unfounded theories as to when satan existence cessed.

 

[Andrew]

Franklin,

I'm not gonna discuss this any further with you cos you are a preterist and dont seem very coherent in your arguments. There's a special place for preterist discussions, and its in the Spirituality section.

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by Andrew
I'm not gonna discuss this any further with you cos you are a preterist and dont seem very coherent in your arguments. There's a special place for preterist discussions, and its in the Spirituality section.

Your just using that as one of your phoney little excuse's and copouts Andrew, face up to it!  You can put any kind of a label you want on it, it's what the bibles says, it's scripture speaking on it's own, it's Biblical teaching, and most of what you have said thus far, you haven't even been able to back up with scripture!  The only thing you have tried to support your views from has been from the traditions of men and not the authority and inspiration of scripture!  You don't even have the guts to answer any of the simple questions I asked in my post!  If it will make you feel any better, those questions I have posted in the spirituality forum under the title "Satan bound" if you want to look it up! Now what is your excuse for not discussing further?   

 

[Elnaam]

Originally posted by Andrew
Cougan,

It may take some time cos they get hundreds of e-mails daily. What about checking up on the Rienhardt Bonke thing -- Man raised from the dead video which is quite recent. The web address is here:

http://www.cfan.org/offices/usa/cfanusa.htm

I have that video--it is very good. I found the ending just as remarkable as the miracle was. 1 Million people at one of his meetings! And 1 million pledge cards returned!

 

[cougan]

Elnaam,

In that video what did they do to prove that man was dead? Did they just have some death certificate and a doctor claiming him dead? Did they jab him with a needle or cut him somewhere to show that he was truely dead? What do you mean by 1 million pledge cards returned?

Cougan

 

[Andrew]

Cougan, if I may answer...

The man was dead in the morgue for 3 days after being certified dead by the doc. If that's not dead then I dont know what is. They even interviewed the man who was going to embalm him.

There was a rally there in that country and Reinhardt Bonke was the evangelist/preacher. Attendance was about 1 million. They got about 1 million pledge cards to receive Jesus as Saviour. You shld see the part where the whole mass of a million people where shouting the name JESUS! JESUS! JESUS! It was simply awesome! That's my fav part.

 

[cougan]

I did'nt get to talk to as many people as I wanted, but I will go ahead a post the result that I have from following up the healing of this man the 9IRON posted.

The 1st person I talked to was the Baptist Preacher. This is the church this man went to. The preacher told me that this man who is a member of his church had been walking around on crutches. The preacher says he receives a call one day from this man wanting him to come over to his house because he was scared. Then the preachers tells me that when he gets over there he sees the man dancing around the room. The precher says that this man was watching TBN and that he prayed with the guy on the TV. The man that got healed said he had prayed 50 times before for the Lord to heal him but this time it happened. The Baptist preacher believes it was miracle healing. He told me he would not have believed it if he had not seen it for himself. (However he did not actually see the miracle he only saw this man after the fact) The preacher said that the mans knee poped and then he felt a warm sensation move down his leg and then he was able to feel in his foot again and walk on it. Before he had no feeling in his foot. This man had suffered a stroke about 1 year ago. The foot that had no felling had started turning in. When he was healed he regained his feeling in his foot and his foot no longer turned in. The preacher added that the man still had some problems with the other leg, specifically the knee, because he had to put all his weight on that knee so it was still bothering him. He also said that the man can walk about 3 miles now. The preacher told the man that he needs to be sure and praise God for his healing and tell people what God did for him. He then told me he did not know why some people get healed and others don't because there were other people in their church with a stroke that they were praying for that had not been healed. So this is what the baptist preacher had to say.

Next I spoke with a lady that knew him very well. In fact she took his childern to church from time to time. She confirmed that he did have a stroke and that he worked for the state. She said that he looked completely healthy to her before this healing of his. She said that he was using crutches and had a leg brace but that she could not tell for sure how bad his leg was or how much pain he had in it. She said if God healed him that was between him and God. She said that his healing was by no means a bibical miracle. She said that he is very good man but that he get a little exicted when it comes to talking about the miracelous. She said she just can't confirm how bad his leg was.

Next I talked to the man himself. This is what he had to say. He said that he had TBN on and BENNY HINN was on. He was up doing laundry not really listening to the program. But BENNY HINNS voice kept getting louder and louder in his head. So he said, well if the Lord want me to hear this program I guess I better listen. So he said he put is bad leg up on the coffee table and listened. Then it got to the end of the program and he said that BENNY HINN said if you pray right now and do it faith without doubting you will be healed. Now he said that he did'nt really beieve in the miralces that he was seeing them do on TV before. He told himself well I love praying to the Lord so I will just shut my eyes and pray as hard as I can. He told me about how his leg was bow legged and that it had decreased in size because it had not been used. He also told me that he could have a nail in his foot for 2 days and he wouldnt know it because he had no feeling in his leg. Then he told me how he went to see the doctor once a month and that he was all the way recovered from his stroke execept for his leg. He told me that the doctor said that his leg is getting worse and worse and that he would eventually end up in a wheelchair. So as he was praying for a healing he said his knee poped. Now he told me his knee poped all the time and usually would have to press on it to put it back in so he could use it. He also told me how much pain it was to pop it back into place. When it poped he just kept on praying and he felt a warth start at the top of his head and move down to his foot. He told me he saw with his own eys his leg starighten out and the feeling returned to his foot. Then he told me how he got up and dance around and how he has been giving this testiomony to everyone in town and in other towns. He told me he likes to think that he had the faith of that women that touched the hem of Jesus garment and was healed from her 12 years of bleeding. I asked him, what did you doctor say about this. He said his doctor was amazed and told him to be sure and give God the glory because you healing came from him. He said he is ready to go back to work for the state but he has to be checked out some more by the doctors before the state will let him come back to work.

Now I have stated what these different individuals said. Now I still have a few more people to talk to before I draw my final conclusion but I will state what I think at this time. The Baptist Preacher seemed sincere but he only saw this man in crutchs and then saw him after the healing. He can not confirm or deny the condition of this mans leg. No doubt this man had a stroke around year ago. The Baptist preacher says something quite intersting in the fact that this man still had problems that is that his other leg/knee was in bad shape after the healing and he implied there were other problems also that he did'nt go into. 2nd the lady who knew him very well and even said he was a very good boy, implied to me that he likes to exagerate a bit because he is so exicted about miracles. She again could not confirm or deny the condition of his leg and said that he looked very healthy to her before the healing. 3rd The man himself. Again, a very sincer sounding man and the only eyewittness of his healing. He also stated that God had put on his mind that their would be a lot of doubting Thomas out there but that he should give his testimony anyways.

Conclusion
The Baptist preacher thinks it was a miracle. The lady friend does not. The man belives a Miracle happened. I found this interesting while investigated it but I am afraid at this point in my investigation that the only thing that I can confirm is that he had as stroke a year ago or so. I can not confirm the condition of his leg nor can I confirm that he had a bibical miracle. Did something change in this mans body to allow him to regain feeling and be able to walk on it again? It seems so but when and how we just do not know. As I thought about this man I wondered if it is possible that when his knee poped that it finally poped in such a way that it either caused the blood to start flowing back to his foot or cause something to align back properly. Well whatever the answer I can say this about this man. Wheather he receive a Miracle or not at least he is giving God the credit and is proclaiming him to many people.

 

[debs]

Do u have any illnesses cougan?
If so, do u want to be healed?

 

[9-iron]

when his knee poped that it finally poped in such a way that it either caused the blood to start flowing back to his foot or cause something to align back properly.

Amazing what GOD can do isn't!!!, You can investigate it all you want, you can try to explain it all you want. You can come up with all kinds of conclusions you want, you can even explain it away, BUT the BOTTOM LINE is this: either you BELIEVE or you DON'T BELIEVE in miracles, it is that simply.

She said that he is very good man but that he get a little exicted when it comes to talking about the miracelous.

Wouldn't you if you had experienced a miracle of God??

 

Cougan I applaud your efforts, most skeptics don't even bother at least hearing the evidence for miracles, but you my friend at least took the time. But again, it comes down to a matter of believe. We can come up will all kinds of things to cause doubt or to explain away things we don't fully understand. And on another note, the account the lady gave you, seems to be off from what she has said in the past, again if she openly said he was healed by a miracle of God she would be going against the doctrined of her church, so I don't think she was completely open to you..I am impressed however by the testimony of the Baptist preacher and the man himself. Anyway I am glad you took the time.  

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by debs
Do u have any illnesses cougan?
If so, do u want to be healed?

Jesus said, it's the sick who need a doctor!