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Tithing/Speaking in Tongues

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by greekgal, Jun 10, 2002.

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  1. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Cougan,

    Why dont you talk to his doctor? I'm sure his professional/scientific opinion will bear some weight. Also, since this man saw the doc regularly, there shld be medical reports signed by his doc, X-rays, hospital stays etc. The doc wld know what his leg used to look like etc.

    I also applaud your efforts. At least you bother to find out. I pray you dont give up, and come to know Jesus as the same healer he was in the OT and NT.

    ps: will be sending u the VCDs soon. gimme some time to get things together. I have another one -- by Peter Youngren, of healing miracles in Kenya.

    God bless
     
  2. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    No debs I am a very healthy person. I very rarely get sick. In fact my whole family rarely ever gets sick. When we do get sick it just a cold or something. I almost forgot my wife has a TMJ and some type of neck problem that bothers her. Ok Debs I would love for her to be free from this pain she has. Why dont you share with me how that she may be healed. I know no better way to break my doubt than for that to happen. I certainly could not deny my wife being healed. The cards are on the table show me what you got.
     
  3. 9-iron

    9-iron Football Fan

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    The cards are on the table show me what you got.

    Only GOD can heal your wife's TMJ, not me or anyone else. I will pray for her. In fact, tommorow at church I will have our congregation to pray not only for your wife, but for you as well that you might bear witness to the healing power of GOD...
     
  4. debs

    debs Member

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    ok cougan im hearing ya loud and clear.
    it seems that youd love to believe if you could. So may God grant u the desire of your heart.
    You know in all the healings that ive been involved in its a child-like faith that God has been able to use (either to heal me or use me to heal).
    Its like u can take a little child and tell them that God can heal that person over there. They believe u and they go and touch the person and ask Jesus to heal them and God does exactly that.
    I also know that there are times in my life that God cannot use me/or heal me like that because I just dont have that simple belief: I m in a 'wanting-to-figure-it-out-in-my- head-phase'(boy that can be soooo frustrating and unsatisfying!) So not much more I can add to this, I just pray that God will teach u about himself. May He give you His Spirit of wisdom and understanding that u can know him better' Peace to you in Jesus name.....debs
     
  5. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Hey Cougan,

    I'll be posting those VCDs i told you about tomorow. I also pray that God will use these testimonies to reveal His one of his redemptive names -- Jehovah Rapha -- the Lord who heals you -- to you.

    blessings
     
  6. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Ok thanks Andrew I look forward to viewing them.
     
  7. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    What do you guys think of Benny Hinn. Do beleive he is the real thing or a fake? I just watched him preach for a hour and something very interesting happened. A woman brought her crippled daughter up to the stairs where he was. You could tell that she was crippled and not faking it. She stayed down there for awhile while he was saying these different people were being healed of different things. These people came forward and he lined them up and did his thing where he touches them and they fall back wards. None of these people had anything you could see was wrong with them. So then he finally get to the cripple girl and says he is going to lay hands on her. So I thought to myself ok here we go lets see if the crippled girl is restored. Well he lays his hands on her while her mother is holding her up and he says that he cast the demons that are binding her out in the name of Jesus. The mother is crying but guess what the girl was not restored. Benny Hinn told her that she would become whole. Basically he is saying she will be healed later. If he truely had the power of the Holy Spirit working through him it wouldnt of been any problem to make this girl whole right then and there. That would of been a true bibical Miracle if she had straightned up and was able to walk. Once again I was let down to witness a visable Miracle on someone that was Visable disabled/crippled.
     
  8. debs

    debs Member

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    Bennys the real thing.
     
  9. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    I believe Bro Benny is a man of God. He may not be called to teach (sometimes says the wrongs things and gets into trouble -- so do all of us anyway), but I have no doubt he is a God ordained healing minister -- hence his successul healing ministry. That's what he's called to do and that's what he does best.

    Cougan, you must understnd also that there is no healing minister on earth that I know of that has 100% success rate when praying for the sick. But that does not nullify the Word of God -- that healing is part of the atonement and that we are commanded to pray for the sick.

    Also, how do you know this girl doesnt get healed later. There shld be a follow up. Perhaps some days later she'll be testifying standing up. Jesus' miracles werent always immediate too. Rem how he told the blind men to go and wash in the pool of Silaom, how he told the lepers to show themselves to the priest. I think as they did those things in faith they got healed. I believe is this girl were to try to walk a little each day she wld be healed completely.

    sometimes healing takes time. a skinny paralyze leg begins to work again. blood begins to flow. the muscles start to grow back as the leg is used more. b4 it was all dead. all this takes time.

    hope u understnd what im trying to say.

    BTW: VCDs are on the way to u.
     
  10. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    I think that I am going to have to agree with Cougan here, for two basic reasons.

    First - the gifts of the Holy Spirit were given primarily to the apostles, in only one case that I can recall at the moment, were gifts given directly to anyone who was not an apostle - and then that only happened so that it would be readily apparent to the Jews that salvation was for the Gentiles also. So from this scriptural perspective it would safe to assume that once the apostles passed away that there would be no others to dispense spiritual gifts, and then once those whom they had given them to perished, no one would be left alive with these gifts. 

    This brings the second reason to importance.  There is a piece of scripture that I believe precedes the death of the apostles as the ending of the spiritual gifts: 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

    If there are gifts of prophecy they will be done away. This is the Bible stating specifically that the gift of prophecy will be done away with.  If you believe that the Bible is the word of God you can't really argue with this point (*if you don't think that the Bible is the word of God we need to start a different thread to talk about that*).  The same things are to be said about the gifts of tongues and knowledge.  They are all going to pass away - we can't argue with that no matter how much we would love for these to gifts to last forever - this is the will of God.

    So now the question is : when will they pass away?  This is also answered in that passage - when the perfect comes.

    Is this talking about God?  Obviously not - God has always been and will always be.  Christ then? See the previous answer.  Besides that, by the time that this passage was written Christ had already come and been crucified.  This is obviously referring to something else. 

    The word of God maybe?

    Let's think about that for a moment.  We know that God is light and in Him there is no darkness.  God is truth, in Him there is no falsehood.  God is perfect, in Him there is no imperfection. 

    This passage from 2 Timothy tells us that Scripture is of God.  This would mean then that all of the things that we've previously stated about God are also true about the Scripture, for anything of God would also have the same attributes as Him, else it could not be of Him. 

    If the word is perfect, and we now have the complete Bible, then the perfect has come. Thus, the end of, and the reason why there are no longer, these spiritual gifts. 
     
  11. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    See previous post to know why I think that Benny Hinn is probably not what he claims to be.
     
  12. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    aggie03,

    Your main basis for not believing that the gifts of healings or any gift of the Holy Spirit for that matter exists today or passed away with the apostles is the fact that you believe "perfect" means the Bible.

    You say the answer is in the passage itself. I agree. But your interpretation is wrong. Lets look at the key verse v12:

    12* for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I am known;

    1. It says now we see "obscurely". Is this still happening? Obviously yes, just look at all the arguments we have here, diff denominations, etc. And none of us can claim to understnd all of the Bible 100%.

    2. Then it says "and then face to face". Has this happened? Have you seen Jesus face to face? How can it mean you'll see face to face with the face of the Bible??

    3. Then it says "now I know in part". Is this still happening? Obviously. Which Christian here knows fully? Understnds fully?

    4. Notice the qualification of knowing fully -- "even as I am known fully" Who else knows us fully but Christ? So, if u say that this knowing fully has already happened, then the qualification is that you must know "perfectly" -- that's the standard -- becos it says AS you are perfectly known by Christ.

    Yes we have the Bible complete. We can learn a lot from it. But even with the Bible and all the study aids, no Christian on earth has perfect understnding, no Christian understnds AS WELL AS how Christ fully understnds us.

    So clearly the perfect has not come. So u cant use this verse to say the gifts died out with the apostles. I have used the scripture passage itself to interpret what perfect means. Let the Bible interpret the Bible.
     
  13. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    I will offer another article on this topic. It is up to wheather or not you agree with it. I did not personally write this article. It will sound a bit incomplete in the begining because I pulled this portion out that deals specifically with 1Cort 13.

    I CORINTHIANS 13
    Does I Corinthians 13 harmonize with the things. that I have presented? "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (v. 9-10) Note carefully the passage. There is the part, then there is the perfect; the fragment, then the complete. If the complete thing has arrived, then any claim to tongues (one of the "parts") is false. What is the complete thing? It is not Christ, and it is not heaven. There is no mention of Christ in the chapter. It would be strange to have such a vague reference to Christ, as this surely would be, since he is not mentioned anywhere else in the chapter. It is not heaven. Heaven is foreign to the context. There is not a single reference to heaven in the entire section that deals with the miraculous gifts (Chapters 12-14). Furthermore, heaven would destroy the contrast between the part and the complete thing. The contrast is not between the life now and the one to come, but between a part and a whole. What is the complete thing? The whole is composed of the parts: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. These three equal divine revelation. The whole, or complete thing, is the written revelation - the New Testament. The complete revelation of God was given through miraculous gifts. When the revelation was completed, the gifts ceased.

    THE APOSTOLIC "WE"
    Read carefully I Corinthians 13:9. "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part" Why did Paul use the personal pronoun "we"? He does not say, "now Ye know in part and ye prophesy in part." Compare
    this verse with I Corinthians 1:5, where he introduces the discussion of the miraculous gifts: "That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge." Notice how he uses the word "ye" in that passage. Why the personal pronoun "we" in I Corinthians 13:9? Paul's apostleship was under attack from false teachers. He uses the pronoun "we" as a reference to the apostles. He does the same thing in I Corinthians 2. The "we" in I Corinthians 2:6, 7, 12, 13, 16, and the "us" inverse 10, are all used in reference to the apostolic office. False teachers denied that Paul was equal to the rest of the apostles since he was not with Christ in his personal ministry. For this reason, Paul uses the pronoun "we" to show his equality with the other apostles. "Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed." (I Cor. 15:11) I Corinthians 2 has to do with the revelation given to the apostles. The "we" in 13:9 is an inspired "we" - a specific reference to the apostles and, therefore, the revelation and inspiration of the apostles.
    Is it not true that the apostles received the revelation in part and then wrote it in completeness? Is that not what we have today? It's plain that the pronoun "we" was intended to signify the apostles, and the revelation of the gospel through them. When that was completed, the "part" ceased. The part and the whole are tied to the apostles. When they finished their work and had given the faith "once for all delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3, ASV), the part stopped. The apostles have completed their work. We have the complete thing - the New Testament. When one admits that apostolic revelation is complete, he admits that the gifts have ceased. The "we" in I Corinthians 13:9 settles the matter as to the ones that are under consideration. Paul used that pronoun to designate specifically the apostles. There's not the slightest question about the completeness of revelation today. Therefore, there is no question left about the miraculous gifts. The work of the apostles has ceased. Their work was the revelation of the gospel of Christ. The revelation of the gospel of Christ has been completed, and therefore the gifts that the apostles had, and provided to others by the laying on of hands, has ceased. The claims of Pentecostals to be able to heal and speak in tongues is a false claim.

    I CORINTHIANS 13:12
    "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (I Cor. 13:12)
    This passage, and those just discussed, is a reference to the partial knowledge while revelation was being given through miraculous gifts, as contrasted with full knowledge when revelation was completed. When revelation was completed, the Jewish state ended. It left nothing but Christ and the church. (Rev. 10:7) When revelation was completed, one could fully know the will of God. When one looks in a mirror he does not see another, he sees himself. The American Standard version (ASV) translates it "but then shall I know fully." Question: Can one know fully the will of God today? Do we have the full will of God in the New Testament? Is there still some revelation to be added to the New Testament? The answers to these questions are clear. We do have the full revelation of God. There is to be no further revelation. Look at verse 2: "And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries . . ." (ASV) What does the "know" of verse 2 mean? It is a reference to knowledge based on divine revelation. In like manner, the "know" of verse 12 is the knowing that rests on divine revelation. We now have that in the New Testament. The "know" of Paul was knowledge in part, because revelation was in the process of being given.
    When completed, there would be no further need for the miraculous that supplied the part. Is there anything in chapter 13 to identify the "know" of verse 12? There certainly is a key to the specific knowledge under consideration.
    "And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; arid if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." (I Cor. 13:2, ASV)
    Here are both the word "know" ("understand" in KJ) and the word "knowledge." Can one determine the how of "know" and the what of "knowledge" in verse 2? Two other words identify the how of "know" and the what of "knowledge." The "gift of prophecy" tells the how, and "mysteries" tells the what.

    "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" (Eph. 3:1-6)
    Here is a further divine commentary on the "know" and the "knowledge" of I Corinthians 13:2. Notice that the words in I Corinthians 13:2 are used by Paul in these verses in Ephesians. In the place of "prophecy" in I Corinthians 13:2, Paul used the words "apostles" and "prophets." Substituting the words "apostles" and "prophets" for the word "prophecy" in the Corinthian passage, we have the exact idea given. Look at the words: Apostles and prophets made known mystery and knowledge. Here is the how of "know" in I Corinthians 13:2. It was through miraculous gifts. Here is the what that is known: the mystery. This is specific written revelation.
    Finally, Paul specifies the medium of completed revelation apostles and prophets. Does anyone have any problem with the meaning of the Ephesian passage? I think no one would contend that the revelation (miraculous) of this passage continues today or will continue in heaven. But the know; mystery, knowledge, apostles, and prophets, by the Spirit, are parallel with the same words in I Corinthians 13:2.
    Since there can be no question about the "know" and the "knowledge" of verse 2, can it be established that this is the same "know" and "knowledge" of verse 12? Keep in mind the prophecy, know,
    and knowledge of verse 2. Let us follow the thought through the chapter. "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies,
    they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." (I Cor. 13:8) Notice the things in the verse. In verses 1 and 2 we have tongues, prophecies, and knowledge. In verse 8 we have prophecy. tongues, and knowledge. 1 have already shown the meaning of "know" and "knowledge" in verse 2. Can anyone doubt that verse 8 is a reference to the same "know" and "knowledge"' There can be no mistake about this.
    Let us continue to trace our "know." "For we know in part, and we prophecy in part." (I Cor. 13:9) Here are two of our words: "know" and "prophesy." But what kind of "know"? Answer: the know of prophecy. Since the `'prophesy" was in part. the "know" was in part. The "prophesy" of verse 9 is the same prophecy that we have traced through the chapter. It is prophecy that had to do with revelation.
    "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (I Cor. 13:10) Now. watch verse 10: The word "but" is a contrasting word. What is being contrasted? It will not do to jump the track and ignore Paul's previous thoughts. There is no question but that. up to this point. Paul is discussing miraculous gifts in connection with the revelation of the gospel. The perfect (complete) is introduced by a contrasting word and does not refer to anything but the revelation of the gospel. Paul has already identified the "part" with "prophesy" in verse 9. Prophesy ties the "part" to revelation. Thus the contrast is between partial revelation, while the gospel was being revealed through the apostles and prophets. and completed revelation when the parts (miraculous gifts) would be done away.

    Now we are ready for verse 12. "I know in part" has been used by Paul in relation to prophecy or miraculous gifts (verse 9). But this is a reference to the revelation of the gospel. The "know" has been proven to be the knowing by revelation and inspiration. The "but then shall I know fully" (ASV) of verse 12 is parellel to "But when that which is perfect is come" of verse 10.. The "know in part" and the "know fully" is the same contrast as that of verses 9 and 10. A contrast between partial knowledge while revelation was being given by miraculous gifts and a completed written revelation with the cessation of gifts since they are no longer needed. Paul puts "knowing in part" with prophecies and tongues. Paul uses tongue and prophecies to equal divine revelation. Paul stated definitely that prophecies and tongues, which equal divine knowledge given by miraculous gifts, would cease (v. 8). Paul set the time of cessation of prophecies and tongues to be when revelation was completed. (v. 10). Paul illustrates the "part" as equal to childhood and the "whole" as equal to maturity or manhood. Evidently Paul did not think that spiritual gifts were the ultimate of spirituality. Paul closes his discussion by insisting that when revelation was completed one would have all that he needed. Therefore, there is no place leg for miraculous gifts today. Paul completely refutes the Pentecostal claim for spiritual gifts today. Shall we believe Paul or the claims of Pentecostals?
     
  14. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    I still dont see how having the New Testament completes revelation for mankind or the church. Yes the Bible is complete in itself.

    But the passage is not talking about a thing (the Bible) knowing fully. It is talking about US knowing perfectly AS we are known perfectly by the Lord. And that clearly, has not happened.

    Basically it boils down to this: Can we as Christians, claim to know perfectly -- as perfectly as how we are known by God -- just becos we have a Bible to read? I certainly dont claim to have complete revelation.
     
  15. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    Cougan, that was awesome.
     
  16. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    First of all, when you read the passage - where does it ever say that you shall know perfectly? Paul uses the word I for a reason. Paul was something that you, nor I, nor anyone else alive today will ever be - Paul was an apostle. Paul was given the gift of revelation (*among other things*). So doesn't it stand to common sense that when He was done receiving the things that God would reveal to Him that HE would understand completely? How could we have expected the other inspired writers to know when they were done writing the things that were of God? There had to be a way for them to know - when they understood completely.
     
  17. 9-iron

    9-iron Football Fan

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    YEAH,,,Meeting God face to face!!!!!!!!!!
     
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    aggie03,

    You are limiting that passage by saying that Paul is only talking/refering to himself and/or the 12 Apostles. I dont know how you arrived at that conclusion. Perhaps its becos you are being consistent with your theology that the gifts of God to the church was only for a time and for the Apostles alone. so u conclude that only the Apostles in the NT cld get revelation from God or operate in the gifts. that simply is not true.

    1. The Bible says God gives gifts to the church. Are we the church still?
    2. It is as the Holy Spirit wills, not "when the Apostles pass on".
    3. Paul prayed "Eph 1:17* That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:" Now why wld he do this if revelation was only the "privilege" of the 12 Apostles?
    4. The annointing within leads and guides you into all truth. How can that be if the whole church has ceased to get any revelation?
    5. finally, why do you limit revelation to mean the writing of the Bible? The Bible was not put together until much later.

    BTW: "where does it ever say that you shall know perfectly?"

    context: v9 says "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part."

    b4 u say 'we' here means the 12 Apostles, consider the fact that many others in the church prophesied too/had the gifts of prophecy, eg Agabus. so we cannot be just the apostles. "We" clearly refers to the church, and the church is still around"
     
  19. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    hey Andrew and 9Iron there is going to be a healing service in my town on the 21. This guy put an ad in the paper saying he was going to have this service and that he was waiting for God to tell him when to have it. Well God has told him to have it on the 21. He says all are welcome come with your crutches and wheelchairs. He says he has seen many many miracles. So I am going to go to this service and see with my own eyes if any miracles happen. I have not received you disk yet Andrew, Im sure it will probably take another week or so before it gets here. Anyways, why don't you guys pray that I see or experience something at this service. The way I see it, its another oppertuninty for my bibical view to be destroyed. I will of course report back in here what happens at the healing service.
     
  20. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Sure thing cougan, no problem. And I'll pray that God will reveal himself to you as Jehovah Rapha.

    BTW: who's the evangelist?
     
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