Tithing/Speaking in Tongues

[Andrew]

Cougan,

It may take some time cos they get hundreds of e-mails daily. What about checking up on the Rienhardt Bonke thing -- Man raised from the dead video which is quite recent. The web address is here:

http://www.cfan.org/offices/usa/cfanusa.htm

 

[LouisBooth]

Andrew, did you miss my question?

 

[Andrew]

Louis,

What question? I looked back at the last 3 pages and didnt see any quest addressed to me by you...?

u did ask a ? or 2 with quotes, but they aren't my quotes.

 

[LouisBooth]

Since you where addressing this..it was a general question...

"My question is this..do you ALWAYS have an interpreter to interpret this "event" and does it ALWAYS edify the church or nonbelievers. A two sentence answer will do thanks."

 

[LouisBooth]

My appologies I should have said that it was a general question to those advocating tongues in their church.

 

[Andrew]

When my Pastor speaks in tongues, he follows on in English (the interpretation).

Such "events" happens only once in a while, not at every service. And yes we are edified, encouraged/built-up.

 

[9-iron]

Cougan I sent the numbers to your private messages.

 

[franklin]

   Originally posted by hobart schmedly
1. love is not a gift [/B]

Hobart, I stand corrected, love is not a gift, however, the point Paul was making was that if someone has these gifts of the spirit and has no love he is nothing and just making a lot of noise and is puffed up and prideful ..."I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.".... "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things" ..... childish things could be referring to being over zealous for the so called gift of tongues that everyone is so frustrated about not receiving these days.  Paul was telling them this 2000 years ago! 

  
2. Paul did not say that love is greater than the gifts, he said that love is better than coveting to get the best gifts to operate [/B]

I agree, but Paul never says that the gift of speaking in languages is the greatest of the gifts, if you look in scripture it is always last on the list and as time moved on the gift of languages was slowly passing away until it isn't even mentioned in scripture any longer.  Just look in the book of Acts.... Paul always refers to tongues as a sign for unbelievers anyway, it was never intended for believers in some private prayer time.  Check out Paul's writings in 1Cor12,13 14, I'm not making it up! Speaking in tongues in private prayer is something that man made up!  It's not biblical teaching!  

  
3. The best gift is the gift that is needed to get the job done.[/B]

Again, I agree, how about the gift of helps?  It seems like that is last on the list of things that is used these days that will get the job done!  I think we need to get our prioriies in order in the body of Christ!

   Healing is useless to someone who needs a demon cast out. [/B]

I don't believe demons or the devil even exist any longer.  The scripture is clear that Christ defeated satan during the first century. So where are all these demons coming from?  Man doesn't need any help from satan to commit sin. "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
   Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."  (Js 1:14,15)

   If a person needs to be built up in their spirit, then tongues may in fact be the best gift for them. [/B]

I don't have a problem with encouraging someone who needs to have their spirit lifted up if they are feeling down or sad, but can you tell me how will speaking in an unknown language (tongue) make them feel any better especially if they don't understand a word you are saying to them?   Like Paul says, "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries....... Sorry Hobart but speaking to me in some unknown language is not going to encourage me at all, I'll probably ask you, what on earth are you talking about?  

 

[Andrew]

Franklin, if i may...

quote: "I don't believe demons or the devil even exist any longer.Ê The scripture is clear that Christ defeated satan during the first century."

How can that be?

1Pe 5:8* Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

2Co 2:11* Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

You mean scriptures such as these dont apply to Christians anymore? If your statement were true, it wld mean we are now living in a world free of evil, which is simply not the case. I still see stealing, destruction and death.

John 10:10 -- The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

----------

quote: "but can you tell me how will speaking in an unknown language (tongue) make them feel any better especially if they don't understand a word you are saying to them?Ê"

That's not what is meant. The Bible says the person himself who prays in tongues edifies his own spirit man. ie its for himself not someone else.

his praying in tongues strengthens, charges up his spirit man, not his emotions or feelings. for eg, when I'm depressed or down, and feel that I have not much confidence or faith to deal with a particular problem, I can pray in tongues and my spirit man is charged up, and I can stand my ground against Satan.

It's not the same as someone coming along to tell you happy things, to make you think happy thots, -- that's the world's system.

Of course, someone may come along and share a passage of scripture to encourage me. but the thing is, i can pray in tongues anytime anywhere. The Spirit is there 24/7 to help, but no human is available to help you 24/7.

that said, even if i were to pray for another in tongues, he can still be edified. becos it's a spiritual thing. there are cases where the person being prayed for understands what you are saying in tongues (when you dont!). sometimes, when you pray in tongues over a hurting person, he or she starts crying, and there's a release.

 

[franklin]

 My quote:
"I don't believe demons or the devil even exist any longer.Ê The scripture is clear that Christ defeated satan during the first century."

Andrew: How can that be?

How can that be?  Because that is what scripture says, that's why!  Heb2:14, 9:26; 1Cor15:26-28; 1Jn3:8 read these passages for yourself.... 

   1Pe 5:8* Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
2Co 2:11* Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
You mean scriptures such as these dont apply to Christians anymore? If your statement were true, it wld mean we are now living in a world free of evil, which is simply not the case. I still see stealing, destruction and death.
John 10:10 -- The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. [/B]

I understand what you are asking me with these passages.... as long as there are evil men in the world that doesn't mean that Satan hasn't been defeated 2000 years ago.  Man does not need any help from satan to commit sin. (James 1:14-15)

When you read the passages you quoted and others like it, you need to put them in the proper Hermeneutical perspective and historical context as to who the message was being conveyed to.  Scritpture must speak for itself. Although Satan is depicted as destroyed in Revelation 20, in chapter 21 there is still evil existing afterward! This is vitally important. How can evil exist without Satan? Because "every intent of man is to do evil" (Genesis 8:20-21). Once Satan "got the ball rolling" so to speak, man needed (needs) no help in sinning, unfortunately. THe view of Revelation is that Satan is destroyed, and the victory belongs to the saints who must abide in the presence of the Father.

   
quote: "but can you tell me how will speaking in an unknown language (tongue) make them feel any better especially if they don't understand a word you are saying to them?"
That's not what is meant. The Bible says the person himself who prays in tongues edifies his own spirit man. ie its for himself not someone else. [/B]

Paul is making that statement but he is not serious in what he is saying, he is using sarcastism or satire in what he is saying as I have posted recently. 1Cor14:2  When your praying, what language are you speaking?  If you don't know yourself what you are saying, that could be a problem, don't you think? Let me see if I can paraphrase what Paul is saying:  If your going to speak in an unknown language and no one is understanding a word you are saying, fella, why don't you go over there in that corner and talk to God, maybe He can understand what you are saying!  The gift was being abused 2000 years ago, so I can imagine what Paul would say today if he were alive and walked into some of these churches that claim they speak with that gift!  It served it's purpose then, during the first century in order for the unbelievers to be saved! 

   his praying in tongues strengthens, charges up his spirit man, not his emotions or feelings. for eg, when I'm depressed or down, and feel that I have not much confidence or faith to deal with a particular problem, I can pray in tongues and my spirit man is charged up, and I can stand my ground against Satan. [/B]

I'm sorry if you still think satan is bugging you but I wouldn't worry about him to much because he has been dashed to pieces just like Jesus promised!  I think we can trust what Jesus came into this world to accomplish!  I'm not saying we should stop praying, but once again what language are you praying in? 

   It's not the same as someone coming along to tell you happy things, to make you think happy thots, -- that's the world's system.

Of course, someone may come along and share a passage of scripture to encourage me. but the thing is, i can pray in tongues anytime anywhere. The Spirit is there 24/7 to help, but no human is available to help you 24/7.

that said, even if i were to pray for another in tongues, he can still be edified. becos it's a spiritual thing. there are cases where the person being prayed for understands what you are saying in tongues (when you dont!). sometimes, when you pray in tongues over a hurting person, he or she starts crying, and there's a release. [/B]

I'd like to cover these with you tomorrow if that is ok with you, since it is late in the evening where I am located.....  I thank you brother for responding.....

 

[9-iron]

Cougan, I am interested in what report you got from the contacts I gave you. I felt like these references were pretty fair ground. I would also like to give you the number to my pastor if you are interested. I also have some other healings to share with you if again you are interested.

Franklin ?????????? that just makes no sense!!!!!!!

 

 

[LouisBooth]

"he follows on in English (the interpretation). "

a man who speaks in tounges CANNOT be his own interpreter.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Well Franklin your obviously not a futurist and that ends up leading to your views on demons and devil not having effect in our lives. I don't believe the final coming has came yet and that demons still do exist and in fact have seen demons effect my life but this is a new topic off of tithing and speaking on tongues but I thought I must post on what was discussed and to be caught off guard by attacks from demons is nothing to tred lightly with.

 

[Andrew]

quote: "a man who speaks in tounges CANNOT be his own interpreter."

"laughs" where in the world did you get that from.
you might as well say a Christian who has the gift of knowledge cannot have the gifts of healings operating in his ministry. (The 2 usu go hand in hand).

a doctor doesnt tell the F14 pilot what the flying experience is supposed to be like. them that have ears, let them hear.

 

[cougan]

9 Iron I am still working on it. I have spoke with the baptist preacher and with the lady from the COC. I will report my findings in here when I have finished talking to all of them.

Andrew I am very sceptical of that video on that weblink you gave me especially since someone like Benny Hinn endorses it. It says that this man is going to tell what he experienced while he was dead. Again this doesnt seem bibical to me. I do wish I had 35 dollars just to throw away to examine this paticular video but I will have to see if I can find more info on it or find someone that has a copy of it elsewhere. Oh, almost forgot your preacher did respond to my email. I asked for a video but he just wants to discuss the topic of Miracles from Gods word right now it seems. I have sent him a reply back and I hope that he might come up with some video he can email me or send me.

Thanks Cougan

 

[Andrew]

" I do wish I had 35 dollars just to throw away to examine this paticular video but I will have to see if I can find more info on it or find someone that has a copy of it elsewhere."

Benny Hinn endorses it, but so do many other churches. Perhaps, you shld be more concerned with who Reinhardt Bonke is and what he has done, after all, its from his ministry, not Benny Hinn.

Anyway, not asking you to believe it. Pt is, your investigation wld be more scientific and objective if you at least watch it first, b4 writing it off. Hopefully, someone can lend you a copy of it, then you can watch and see if everything is staged or real.

quote: "Again this doesnt seem bibical to me."
didnt Jesus and the Apostles raise ppl from the dead. And its safe to assume that these people did talk about their experience after that, or that even curious people like us wld have asked them what it was like.

Do be patient with my pastor. managing a church of 7,000 is not easy. It may be good also that you relook the Word. Afterall, what good is a video if in the end one says its all professional acting? And we shld not put videos and testimonies above the Word.

I do have a copy of the video on VCD. Hey just remembered!!! I have another one, of another local church, where a woman with one leg shorter (she was wearing braces) had her leg lengthened! She was also freed from mind-numbing pain caused by her condition. There's no close-up of her leg extending. but you can see the pastor leading her up, walking her to and fro on the stage, until her obvious limping disappears. She takes her braces off later and you can see her legs are equal in length. It's a beautfiul testimoni cos someone in that congregation who had just gone shopping gave her a pair of new shoes in that same service, which fit her exactly. (She had to wear special heeled shoe becos of her condition.)

Hey, if you are really interested, gimme your mailing address and I'll send them to you! becos i truly want you to believe that God is still in the miracles business!

note they are in Video CD format. u need a video-CD player and the church is called Lighthouse Evangelism in Singapore, u can check them out here:

http://www.lighthse.org.sg/

 

[aggie03]

I guess that I'll start off by talking about tounges:

"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

-- 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

I guess that we should start with what the verse tells us plainly.  First it says that the gifts of prophecy and tounges and knowledge (divine revelation) will be done away with.  That's written in pretty much clear and understandable english.  So then the question becomes when are these things going to be done away with?  The end of the verse provides us with that information - the things that are partial (i.e. the gifts that we've already mentioned) will be done away with then the perfect arrives.  What is perfect?  Well the simple answer is God.  God is perfect, in Him there is no darkness.  We also know from 2 Timothy 3:16,17 that the Bible is the word of God.  With this axiom, it then stands to reason that because the Bible is of God, then it also must be perfect.  God always has been and always will be - so the arrival of the perfect wasn't referring to Him.  It was referring to His word, the Bible.  We have received the Bible, it is perfect, so now the imperfect, the partial gifts are done away with.  There is no more speaking in tounges, there is no more prophecy, there is no more raising from the dead.  Why???  These things aren't necessary any longer. 

In the early church, when the Bible wasn't around yet, one of the only ways of proving the power of God was with these awesome acts.  The apostles filled the void, the lack of knowledge with their writings, and now we have all that we need to know to reach heaven in the Bible.  We have the perfect word of God - what else do you need (besides common sense)?

 

[aggie03]

Now we'll get to the tithing issue:

Perhaps one of the best places that we can look (the Bible is the best place, though) is in the New Testament church during the first century.  This is an excerpt from a book called the First Apology by Justin Martyr.  He was a historian as well as a Christian in the early church of Christ. 

 

"And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit..."

-- Justin Martyr, First Apology Chapter 67

In the first century church each gave according to what they thought fit - eac gave according to their own ability.  This isn't surprising at all, because this is exactly what we are commanded to do.  There is no command for tithing in the New Covenant, only a command to give what we are able to give with a cheerful heart.  The first century church did this because they had the best guides that we could have everasked for - Christ and the apostles.

So as far as tithing goes - is there biblical support for it?  In the Old Covenant, yes -- in the New Covenant, no, most certainly not.  Are we still commanded to give? Yes, with a cheerful heart.  Is there a set limit on much we should give - each according to his ability. 

 

[franklin]

  Originally posted by Project 86
Well Franklin your obviously not a futurist and that ends up leading to your views on demons and devil not having effect in our lives.

Did it ever occur to you that it might be your heart that causes you to sin?  Satan's days were numbered during the first century and he knew it and he was defeated just as Jesus promised!  If you want to believe satan is still alive, that's your fantasy!  I choose to take Jesus at His word and believe Him!  What does the authority of scripture mean to you?

  I don't believe the final coming has came yet and that demons still do exist and in fact have seen demons effect my life but...... I must post on what was discussed and to be caught off guard by attacks from demons is nothing to tred lightly with. [/B]

Maybe you need to dig deeper into the scriptures and realize that Christ was victorious and dashed satan to pieces as the scripture is so clear!  If he wasn't defeated, then Christ was not victorious.  Just because he has been defeated, doesn't mean evil is still not an influence in the world. Do you think that George Washington has an influence on American politics?  Is he still alive?  In the same way satan doesn't need to be alive in order to be an influence on men to commit evil and sin. (James1:14-15)

 

[LouisBooth]

"where in the world did you get that from.
"

The bible. a;wekjr;aiejpianoiptghaioewhtioawejopirhawerawerawepiorhpawejiraweji okay..I just wrote "in tongues" it says God is great. *rolls eyes*