Radrook

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Time Dilation

The fascinating thing about traveling at close to the speed of light is time dilation-the experiencing of time at a slower rate for those on board than for those remaining back on Earth.

For example let’s consider the ratio of Earth time to ship time if we travel at 99% light speed.

At that rate it has been estimated that each day on our ship would equal a year on Earth. So a trip to our closest star system, the Alpha Centaury, which is approx four light-years distant, would be experienced as merely four days on our ship but as four years back on Earth.

Of course this isn’t factoring in the acceleration and deceleration times that such a trip would require in order to gradually build up momentum. So the crew would not experience such a drastic time dilation effect uniformly throughout the voyage. Only as the acceleration increases would the time discrepancy become more severe and the time dilation or stretching on our ship become enormous.

In any case, lets say that in our trip to the Alpha Centari system our ship takes a day for accelerate and another to gradually decelerate. That still leaves us with two ship days of time dilation at 99% speed of light on our trip to the alpha centaury system. That means that while the crew experiences two days Earth experiences two years during that same period of time. Which is neat for the crew since it significantly reduces the severe psychological stress that long duration space travel entails.

A farther destination:

For farther destinations things get a bit more creepy. For example, if the destination is 365 light years distant, then at the rate of a ship day for each Earth a year, we would reach the place in one ship year. Unfortunately, that would amount to approx 365 years on Earth.

Upon arrival, perhaps a regular year might be spent exploring the region. But with an additional ship year added in the return trip, it would increase the total round trip to approx 730 Earth years. That is similar to a person from the year 1287, 205 years before Columbus traveled to the Americas, suddenly being transported to our present time of 2017 after traveling for two years..


Other Consequences:

Of course such a phenomenon would increase the human ability to reach distant places in the cosmos via the lifespan extension. People back on Earth would be born and would die over and over as we calmly would remain untouched. Traveling at 99% the speed of light and aging only a day for every earth yea would have us age only a year for the 365 years back on earth.

But it does have a certain rather bitter downside. It requires the crew to be willing to sacrifice all relationships and the hopes of returning to the familiar Earth they left behind since many a drastic unpleasant thing can happen politically and environmentally during 730 years.


One Religious Perspective:

One sci fi film, starring Charlton Heston had the Earth overrun with apes upon their return.

Of course believers in the biblical promises would never expect such an eventuality. What they would expect would be to find Earth transformed into a global paradise instead as Bible prophecies indicate.




























 
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essentialsaltes

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One sci fi film, starring Charlton Heston had the Earth overrun with apes upon their return.

Spoiler Warning!

(Just kidding. No one has to put spoiler warnings on 50 year old movies.)
 
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timewerx

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Hopefully, before Captain "Left-Everything-Behind" completes his or her mission, we would have invented the faster-than-light Starship, rendezvous with his or her ship and bring them either home or to their destination a lot sooner and still return with everyone of their loved ones still alive and well! :)
 
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Radrook

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Hopefully, before Captain "Left-Everything-Behind" completes his or her mission, we would have invented the faster-than-light Starship, rendezvous with his or her ship and bring them either home or to their destination a lot sooner and still return with everyone of their loved ones still alive and well! :)


That is one possible scenario that didn't happen to the crew who wound up desperately fighting gorillas, chimps, and orangutans in the film: Planet of the Apes. But, true, I have come across that concept before and it does sound within the realm of the possible.


BTW
If I were a crew member of such a ship and they did know how to intercept and prevent us from undergoing the consequences of such a drastic time dilation, I would definitely be grateful. It would indeed be ironic if they just callously chose to ignore us out of some morbid curiosity or based on a materialistic reluctance to spend the necessary funds on a rescue mission.

As a former employer of mine said just prior to firing me after I had humbly requested a very small raise. "You know! Money makes people do very funny things sometimes."
 
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timewerx

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That is one possible scenario that didn't happen to the crew that wound up fighting gorillas, chimps, and orangutans in the Film Planet of the Apes. But, true, I have come across that concept before and it does sound within the realm of the possible.


BTW
If I were a crew member of such a ship and they did know how to intercept and prevent us from undergoing the effects of such a time dilation I would definitely be grateful. It would indeed be ironic if they just chose to ignore me and let me and my crew proceed on course just out of some morbid curiosity or plain reluctance to spend the necessary funds on a rescue mission.

I think it would be wise to prepare for such contingency for any future interstellar voyage.

There should be provisions for docking and even the ability to mechanically join with another ship.

Especially if the ship carrying a huge payload or large # of passengers and impractical to transfer them to another ship. The ship must be able to attach modular upgrades/ship sections, including the possibility to upgrade, attach a faster-than-light propulsion during flight.

As a former employer of mine said just prior to firing me after I had humbly requested a very small raise. "You know! Money makes people do very funny things sometimes."

He definitely did something a normal person wouldn't do!
 
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Radrook

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I think it would be wise to prepare for such contingency for any future interstellar voyage.

There should be provisions for docking and even the ability to mechanically join with another ship.

Especially if the ship carrying a huge payload or large # of passengers and impractical to transfer them to another ship. The ship must be able to attach modular upgrades/ship sections, including the possibility to upgrade, attach a faster-than-light propulsion during flight.



He definitely did something a normal person wouldn't do!

Good ideas! They would be the normal and humane thing to do as well.
 
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timewerx

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Good ideas! They would be the normal and humane thing to do as well.

Yea, another good idea is actually hold off any interstellar voyage until faster-than-light propulsion technology is invented. It would save us a lot of money and trouble in the meantime which could actually be used to fund research on faster-than-light tech.

Otherwise, it's really hilarious, sending off a ship to another star at 50% or 99% speed of light, only to be overtaken, and possibly hauled aboard the new FTL starship 20 years later. So much for the last goodbyes and farewells!^_^
 
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timewerx

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Of course this isn’t factoring in the acceleration and deceleration times that such a trip would require in order to gradually build up momentum.

I've read in a book somewhere, I think the same book "Colonization of Space" which included NASA plans for interstellar voyage few decades ago.

They calculated it will take the crew 2 years to gradually accelerate to above 90% the speed of light at an acceleration rate that will be equal to Earth's gravity.....

At 99+% speed of light, the time dilation will be significant that they will need to maintain that speed for only a short period of time before beginning another 2 year deceleration rate matching the Earth's gravity.

So it's not actually very bad for the crew..... Only slightly above 4 year flight time elapsed for them at any destination in the galaxy and experiencing normal gravity for the majority of the trip.

The only very bad thing is that everyone you knew alive when you left, is likely to be gone when you return.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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A farther destination:

For farther destinations things get a bit more creepy. For example, if the destination is 365 light years distant, then at the rate of a ship day for each Earth a year, we would reach the place in one ship year. Unfortunately, that would amount to approx 365 years on Earth.

Upon arrival, perhaps a regular year might be spent exploring the region. But with an additional ship year added in the return trip, it would increase the total round trip to approx 730 Earth years. That is similar to a person from the year 1287, 205 years before Columbus traveled to the Americas, suddenly being transported to our present time of 2017 after traveling for two years..
For that trip, you'd have to accelerate continuously at 16g on the outward leg, so you wouldn't arrive in any fit state to explore anything...
 
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Petros2015

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Einstein theorized that a ship approaching the speed of light would actually gain Mass, so the more and more energy would be required to make it go faster and faster, making it more and more massive, requiring more energy, etc. That's why you can't break the boundary.

Why would it gain Mass of all things?

Well, it's like when you are in a swimming pool with a friend. As you start to lift them up out of the pool, at first they don't weigh that much, but the higher you lift them out of the water, the heavier and heavier they get. They aren't actually gaining mass, but the more you lift them up, the less the buoyancy of the water is there to help you lift them.

So I think that's what would happen to a ship as it approached light speed. It would be forsaking the buoyancy of the universe. If it started with any mass at all, it would become so massive that it would collapse into a black hole before it hit light speed. Kind of a big deterrent. It looks to me like God doesn't like hackers. :)
 
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timewerx

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So I think that's what would happen to a ship as it approached light speed. It would be forsaking the buoyancy of the universe. If it started with any mass at all, it would become so massive that it would collapse into a black hole before it hit light speed. Kind of a big deterrent. It looks to me like God doesn't like hackers. :)

It will not actually become a black hole.

A black hole must have an Event Horizon at **rest speed** against the local frame of reference. Therefore a starship that doesn't have an event horizon at rest speed cannot be black hole at any speed.

Also a Starship going the near the speed of light may not become massive enough to become or acquire some of the (dangerous) properties of a black hole.

The space around such starship will collapse into "layers" and form a space-time "tunnel" where the ship might actually be able to exceed the speed of light against an outside frame of reference.

It's a phenomenon called "Frame Dragging" or "Lense-Thirring Effect"..

It is first speculated in spinning black holes where the Event Horizon have acquired tangential velocity that is faster than the speed of light! :o

These black holes don't acquire infinite mass and therefore, infinite gravity to eat the entire Universe.

It only means space-time gives way near objects with significant mass traveling at very close the speed of light and it may enable Faster-than-Light speeds if you have a ship that can get very close to the speed of light.
 
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Radrook

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Einstein theorized that a ship approaching the speed of light would actually gain Mass, so the more and more energy would be required to make it go faster and faster, making it more and more massive, requiring more energy, etc. That's why you can't break the boundary.

Why would it gain Mass of all things?

Well, it's like when you are in a swimming pool with a friend. As you start to lift them up out of the pool, at first they don't weigh that much, but the higher you lift them out of the water, the heavier and heavier they get. They aren't actually gaining mass, but the more you lift them up, the less the buoyancy of the water is there to help you lift them.

So I think that's what would happen to a ship as it approached light speed. It would be forsaking the buoyancy of the universe. If it started with any mass at all, it would become so massive that it would collapse into a black hole before it hit light speed. Kind of a big deterrent. It looks to me like God doesn't like hackers. :)
Well, it does seem like he did set a very strict speed limit doesn't it? On the other hand, we thought the same about the sound barrier at one time and now we are easily doing Mach three and more.

The sound barrier or sonic barrier is a popular term for the sudden increase in aerodynamic drag and other effects experienced by an aircraft or other object when it approaches supersonic speed. When aircraft first began to be able to reach close to supersonic speed, these effects were seen as constituting a barrier making supersonic speed very difficult or impossible.

In dry air at 20 °C (68 °F), the sound barrier is reached when an object moves at a speed of 343 metres per second (about 767 mph, 1234 km/h or 1,125 ft/s). The term came into use in this sense during World War II, when a number of aircraft started to encounter the effects of compressibility, a number of unrelated aerodynamic effects that "struck" their aircraft, seemingly impeding further acceleration. By the 1950s, new aircraft designs routinely "broke" the sound barrier.[N 1]
Sound barrier - Wikipedia

Not that I consider them of equal difficulty since one was solved via modified aircraft design and the other demands far more.
 
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loveofourlord

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I've thought about doing a short story about this, first colony ship sent to a distant star, going like 90% the speed of light, they arrive there, and humanity colonized the planet long ago and is now a vast empire, as they found ways to travel there using wormholes and such.

And there is a problem with the catch up to them idea, space is VAST your looking for a small ship over a long distance, hoping you don't just zip past it. It be like trying to find a microbe that started a journey to new york from LA while driving past it, only way to maybe find it is go slow enough to view it in wich case your journey will be much longer.

This came up in stargate universe, a group of humans got behind during a disaster, and the crew of destiny offered to drive them to the destination planet, but they would have to wait decades or centuries for the others to arrive, as it be impossible even knowing the path to find a single ship in that far a distance.

Maybe if you know the aproximate speed and such you can find them, but still alot of things can slow down or change direction and make finding pretty insane. Plus with time dialation figures can be thrown off and such.
 
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timewerx

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Well, it does seem like he did set a very strict speed limit doesn't it? On the other hand,

At that time, they didn't know that there are blackholes/pulsars where the event horizon or local space was moving very close or even *beyond* the speed of light.

Einstein probably already had a thought about it but probably didn't had time to explore the possibility.

In fact, the theory of "Frame-Dragging" which describes the blackholes that spin faster than light is based on Einstein's General Relativity.

we thought the same about the sound barrier at one time and now we are easily doing Mach three and more.

Not that I consider them of equal difficulty since one was solved via modified aircraft design and the other demands far more.

Supersonic flow in fluids actually has properties analogous to a black hole :)

Sonic black hole - Wikipedia
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.
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Radrook

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I've thought about doing a short story about this, first colony ship sent to a distant star, going like 90% the speed of light, they arrive there, and humanity colonized the planet long ago and is now a vast empire, as they found ways to travel there using wormholes and such.

And there is a problem with the catch up to them idea, space is VAST your looking for a small ship over a long distance, hoping you don't just zip past it. It be like trying to find a microbe that started a journey to new york from LA while driving past it, only way to maybe find it is go slow enough to view it in wich case your journey will be much longer.

This came up in stargate universe, a group of humans got behind during a disaster, and the crew of destiny offered to drive them to the destination planet, but they would have to wait decades or centuries for the others to arrive, as it be impossible even knowing the path to find a single ship in that far a distance.

Maybe if you know the approximate speed and such you can find them, but still alot of things can slow down or change direction and make finding pretty insane. Plus with time dilation figures can be thrown off and such.

Seems as if are you going to concentrate on the hopes and difficulties experienced during the voyage leading up to the shocking realization that they had travelled in vain. In such a story the main task is to convince your reader about the utter impossibility or mind-boggling extreme difficulty in intercepting that ship.

Once that is established, and reader credibility has been gained, then the rest of the story will flow in the reader's mind without a hitch. However, if the doubt about the impossibility of intercepting that ship remains, then the reader will be subconsciously distracted and the story will lose impact.

So the first thing is to research and prepare the indispensable mathematical part. Such essential data might be smoothly introduced into the story via casual conversations where concerns are expressed between or among crew members. Or perhaps a flashback to a preflight discourse where crew members wee apprised of the dangers involved might be used.

Just some suggestions from a fellow writer.
 
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Radrook

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At that time, they didn't know that there are blackholes/pulsars where the event horizon or local space was moving very close or even *beyond* the speed of light.

Einstein probably already had a thought about it but probably didn't had time to explore the possibility.

In fact, the theory of "Frame-Dragging" which describes the blackholes that spin faster than light is based on Einstein's General Relativity.




Supersonic flow in fluids actually has properties analogous to a black hole :)

Sonic black hole - Wikipedia
.
.
.

Fascinating article! Thanks!
 
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Radrook

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You guys realize you're drudging through concepts written of in SF decades ago, right?

Isaac Asimov
Robert Heinlein
Larry Niven
Jack Haldeman
Jerry Pournelle
et cetera

That's why reading extensively and researching to see if indeed a story is sufficiently original is essential before submitting it for publication. If indeed it is either identical or much too similar, then a way to make the story unique in some way is necessary. So if rejection slips are the result at least it can't be blamed on lack of originality.

I read a short story, I think it was by Isaac Asimov, where an interstellar ship is indeed overtaken and passed on its journey there and passed again as it returned to Earth. It had been designed during their time dilation. The crewmembers were baffled and identified it as a comet or incandescent meteor. So yes, I am aware that the concept has been used.

Actually, one of the things that kept me from taking that story seriously was the lack if explanation as to why the more advanced ship could approach so close and not detect the less advanced one. So to me that story is seriously flawed.


BTW
Please note that I don't ignorantly post the thread subject of time dilation under the misguided impression that it is the latest news.
 
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loveofourlord

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Seems as if are you going to concentrate on the hopes and difficulties experienced during the voyage leading up to the shocking realization that they had travelled in vain. In such a story the main task is to convince your reader about the utter impossibility or mind-boggling extreme difficulty in intercepting that ship.

Once that is established, and reader credibility has been gained, then the rest of the story will flow in the reader's mind without a hitch. However, if the doubt about the impossibility of intercepting that ship remains, then the reader will be subconsciously distracted and the story will lose impact.

So the first thing is to research and prepare the indispensable mathematical part. Such essential data might be smoothly introduced into the story via casual conversations where concerns are expressed between or among crew members. Or perhaps a flashback to a preflight discourse where crew members wee apprised of the dangers involved might be used.

Just some suggestions from a fellow writer.

Oh yeah, there are some good arguments why it might not work, or might work just something interesting to think about.
 
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