dad

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Time Dilation

The fascinating thing about traveling at close to the speed of light is time dilation-the experiencing of time at a slower rate for those on board than for those remaining back on Earth.

For example let’s consider the ratio of Earth time to ship time if we travel at 99% light speed.

At that rate it has been estimated that each day on our ship would equal a year on Earth. So a trip to our closest star system, the Alpha Centaury, which is approx four light-years distant, would be experienced as merely four days on our ship but as four years back on Earth.

Of course this isn’t factoring in the acceleration and deceleration times that such a trip would require in order to gradually build up momentum. So the crew would not experience such a drastic time dilation effect uniformly throughout the voyage. Only as the acceleration increases would the time discrepancy become more severe and the time dilation or stretching on our ship become enormous.

In any case, lets say that in our trip to the Alpha Centari system our ship takes a day for accelerate and another to gradually decelerate. That still leaves us with two ship days of time dilation at 99% speed of light on our trip to the alpha centaury system. That means that while the crew experiences two days Earth experiences two years during that same period of time. Which is neat for the crew since it significantly reduces the severe psychological stress that long duration space travel entails.

A farther destination:

For farther destinations things get a bit more creepy. For example, if the destination is 365 light years distant, then at the rate of a ship day for each Earth a year, we would reach the place in one ship year. Unfortunately, that would amount to approx 365 years on Earth.

Upon arrival, perhaps a regular year might be spent exploring the region. But with an additional ship year added in the return trip, it would increase the total round trip to approx 730 Earth years. That is similar to a person from the year 1287, 205 years before Columbus traveled to the Americas, suddenly being transported to our present time of 2017 after traveling for two years..


Other Consequences:

Of course such a phenomenon would increase the human ability to reach distant places in the cosmos via the lifespan extension. People back on Earth would be born and would die over and over as we calmly would remain untouched. Traveling at 99% the speed of light and aging only a day for every earth yea would have us age only a year for the 365 years back on earth.

But it does have a certain rather bitter downside. It requires the crew to be willing to sacrifice all relationships and the hopes of returning to the familiar Earth they left behind since many a drastic unpleasant thing can happen politically and environmentally during 730 years.


One Religious Perspective:

One sci fi film, starring Charlton Heston had the Earth overrun with apes upon their return.

Of course believers in the biblical promises would never expect such an eventuality. What they would expect would be to find Earth transformed into a global paradise instead as Bible prophecies indicate.

No one moves anywhere near that speed nor could they. Why engage in wild speculation?
 
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Radrook

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No one moves anywhere near that speed nor could they. Why engage in wild speculation?
The human mind can't be shackled in the way you are demanding. Of course one can shackle one's own mind that way. But why demand it of others?

BTW
As a Christian, do you think angels are incapable of moving at that speed? Or are angels also part of your wild speculations category? Just curious since you do say that nobody you believe exists can move at those velocities and you do claim to be a Christian. So that automatically rings a bell.
 
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Radrook

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The issue would be that you identified that planet as earth.
The final scene in one of the films identifies it as Earth. That's the part where Charlton Hesston comes upon the wrecked Statue of Liberty. The sequel shows the NY subway system were the Mutant humans were holed up. Later, the two apes who escape Earth's destruction travel to the past and inform humans on Earth what awaits them in the future. So there is absolutely no question that the planet depicted is Earth. Obviously you didn't see the films.
 
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dad

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The human mind can't be shackled in the way you are demanding.
Truth and reality don't shackle the mind they free it.

BTW
As a Christian, do you think angels are incapable of moving at that speed?
They can get there with no time or space involved I assume.

Or are angels also part of your wild speculations category?
They are as real as you.

Just curious since you do say that nobody you believe exists can move at those velocities and you do claim to be a Christian. So that automatically rings a bell.
Human bodies have limits regardless of religion. Not being able to travel at light speed is, far as I know, one of them.
 
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Radrook

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Truth and reality don't shackle the mind they free it.

They can get there with no time or space involved I assume.

They are as real as you.

Human bodies have limits regardless of religion. Not being able to travel at light speed is, far as I know, one of them.

I never suggested attaining light speed.
I suggested percentages of light speed.

I never said that truth shackles the mind.
I said that shackling the imagination as you suggested shackles the mind.

BTW
Truth is reached via use of the imagination. Lobotomizing ourselves by calling the employment of imagination of possibilities silly is anti-scientific.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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The speed of light is "1" in natural units because the meter is described as the distance light travels in a certain amount of time. It "turns out" light travels one meter in one third of one ten millionths of a second.

Fine.

This figure, then, means that in about 300,000,000 seconds, we get "c." That is a constant; it doesn't necessarily mean we can't have tachyons along with bradyons. It just means in the media chosen it is measured that a photon has a speed of "1".

Also, recall that speed is not velocity, and that any component of the velocity can be greater than "c," or even complex. If v = c•[0, (5/2), i(1/4)] then the speed is "c." But, v is greater than "c" in one coordinate. This is related to phase and velocity, where the actual wave packets can travel faster than the speed of light for a specific medium. The "speed" of light is allegedly constant, while the energy is stored in the momentum and frequency of the photon so that there is no change in the speed limit, but the phase velocity can increase beyond "c" for high frequencies.

The Cherenkov effect is an example of FTL travel in a medium. Photons incident upon deuterium slow, and because of the density of heavy water the speed of light in deuterium is about 3/4 that of "c." But, neutrinos can already travel relativistically, and they allegedly do not interact with much matter (very LOW cross section, very high mean free path) so the speed of the neutrino is actually faster than "0.75c" - the speed of light in deuterium. Because of this, the neutrino breaks the light barrier, and gives off a "photonic boom" of blue light.

The neutrino speed magnitude is still smaller than "c" in a vacuum - the alleged speed limit of a photon.



I happen to be of the camp that purports E = mc^2, and E^2 = (mc^2)^2 + (pc)^2 is heavily flawed, and that there is no "limit" to how fast elementary particles can travel in any medium. Field theory is trying to reconcile the suspicious aspects of SR, and QM. This implies Maxwells Equations would need to be altered - which isn't too farfetched seeing as though the equations beg to be mathematically coupled (but, no monopoles exist, allegedly.)
 
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dad

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I never suggested attaining light speed.
I suggested percentages of light speed.
You said this

"The fascinating thing about traveling at close to the speed of light.."

You can't travel close to the speed of light either. Truth be told.
I never said that truth shackles the mind.
I said that shackling the imagination as you suggested shackles the mind.
Simply put, imagining you can travel close to light speed frees nothing.


Truth is reached via use of the imagination.
Absurd. Jesus is the truth, and it is obtained by the word of God.

Lobotomizing ourselves by calling the employment of imagination of possibilities silly is anti-scientific.
Jesus is unscientific. Vain imagination and filthy dreaming ain't no great thing. Man's wisdom is a joke.
 
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Radrook

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You said this

"The fascinating thing about traveling at close to the speed of light.."

You can't travel close to the speed of light either. Truth be told.
Simply put, imagining you can travel close to light speed frees nothing.


Absurd. Jesus is the truth, and it is obtained by the word of God.

Jesus is unscientific. Vain imagination and filthy dreaming ain't no great thing. Man's wisdom is a joke.
I never claimed that humans are presently capable of travelling at close to the speed of light.
It is not a claim. It is an example used to illustrate what would happen if we could attain that velocity. Nothing more.

There is nothing filthy about using the imagination in hypotheticals. Where does the Bible say that using the mind to advance and make life easier is filthy?

Jesus created the universe and all the mathematical laws which govern it and Jesus is anti scientific? Yikes! You are reaching some very strange conclusions based on premises which are not supported by the Bible. Who taught you such things?
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Very low cross section, surely?

Good catch. I am lysdexic (dyslexic) so sometimes a minor detail is flipped.

Or, sometimes I am just wrong :) . In this case, it was dyslexia i.e. neutrinos have low cross section, very high MFP at 1 LY of lead.
 
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dad

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I never claimed that humans are presently capable of travelling at close to the speed of light.
It is not a claim. It is an example used to illustrate what would happen if we could attain that velocity. Nothing more.
You can't speak of the impossible as if it were possible. Physical man cannot move that fast.
There is nothing filthy about using the imagination in hypotheticals. Where does the Bible say that using the mind to advance and make life easier is filthy?
That depends if we take it to the extreme and imagine a big bang rather than creation etc etc. That is filthy.
Jesus created the universe and all the mathematical laws which govern it and Jesus is anti scientific?
You have no idea what time is like in the far universe or laws were like on earth 5000 years ago, of if math applies to the far universe, or spiritual etc etc. Therefore what you think of as science is a small little temporary limited thing, and God is not bound by it in any way!

Yikes! You are reaching some very strange conclusions based on premises which are not supported by the Bible. Who taught you such things?
All my premises are supported by the bible who told you anything else?
 
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Radrook

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You can't speak of the impossible as if it were possible. Physical man cannot move that fast.
That depends if we take it to the extreme and imagine a big bang rather than creation etc etc. That is filthy.
You have no idea what time is like in the far universe or laws were like on earth 5000 years ago, of if math applies to the far universe, or spiritual etc etc. Therefore what you think of as science is a small little temporary limited thing, and God is not bound by it in any way!

All my premises are supported by the bible who told you anything else?
--------------------------------------------------

Comment:

You can't speak of the impossible as if it were possible. Physical man cannot move that fast.

Response:

That depends on what is being tagged impossible and why.

Many things previously considered impossible are now taken for granted. So one has to be very careful to arbitrarily tagging things as utterly impossible. Especially without providing reasons why.
--------------------------

Comment:

That depends if we take it to the extreme and imagine a big bang rather than creation etc etc. That is filthy.


Response:
There is absolutely nothing incompatible between a Big Bang and the belief in the existence of an almighty God who initiated it.
-----------------------------

Comment:
You have no idea what time is like in the far universe or laws were like on earth 5000 years ago, of if math applies to the far universe, or spiritual etc etc.

Response:

I made no speculations on how things are in heaven.

1 Corinthians 2:9 NIV
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--

I made no speculations about how things are beyond our detectable universe.

I made no claims about how things were 5000 years ago.

----------------------------------------------------

Comment:

Therefore what you think of as science is a small little temporary limited thing,

I never claimed that science has limitless ability to know everything or accomplish everything.

Ecclesiastes 8:17 NIV
then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend

-------------------------------------------

Comment:

and God is not bound by it in any way!

I never claimed that God is bound by his own laws of nature.

Daniel 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he does according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say to him, What do you?
---------------------------------------------------

Comment:

All my premises are supported by the bible who told you anything else?

Response:

My study of the Bible tells me something else.
 
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dad

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--------------------------------------------------

Comment:



Response:

That depends on what is being tagged impossible and why.

Many things previously considered impossible are now taken for granted. So one has to be very careful to arbitrarily tagging things as utterly impossible. Especially without providing reasons why.


A quick search showed this

"
Universal Speed Limit
Particles that have mass require energy to accelerate them. The closer to the speed of light you get a particle, the more energy is required to go faster. This is because the particles themselves get more massive in proportion to the increased velocity. In short, the faster you go, the heavier you get.

Thanks to this inconvenient truth, if you wanted to accelerate a single electron to ‘light speed’, you would need an infinite amount energy due to the electron becoming infinitely heavy. There isn’t enough energy in the entire universe to propel just a single electron to the speed of light."


Why Can’t Anything Go Faster Than The Speed Of Light?

There is absolutely nothing incompatible between a Big Bang and the belief in the existence of an almighty God who initiated it.
Yes, Scripture!
I made no speculations on how things are in heaven.
Well, we can leave it at the far universe then. But for all science knows, (or not) there is some spiritual aspect to deep space also!

I made no claims about how things were 5000 years ago.
Great. Science does though.

I never claimed that science has limitless ability to know everything or accomplish everything.
Who in their right mind would?



I never claimed that God is bound by his own laws of nature.

We can add to that angels. The spiritual realm, even when it touches earth. The past and future. Deep space.

Not much left eh?

My study of the Bible tells me something else.

You claim my premises are not supported by the bible, so you need to show how. A specific example or two. Good luck with that.
 
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Radrook

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A quick search showed this

"
Universal Speed Limit
Particles that have mass require energy to accelerate them. The closer to the speed of light you get a particle, the more energy is required to go faster. This is because the particles themselves get more massive in proportion to the increased velocity. In short, the faster you go, the heavier you get.

Thanks to this inconvenient truth, if you wanted to accelerate a single electron to ‘light speed’, you would need an infinite amount energy due to the electron becoming infinitely heavy. There isn’t enough energy in the entire universe to propel just a single electron to the speed of light."


Why Can’t Anything Go Faster Than The Speed Of Light?

Yes, Scripture!
Well, we can leave it at the far universe then. But for all science knows, (or not) there is some spiritual aspect to deep space also!

Great. Science does though.


Who in their right mind would?





We can add to that angels. The spiritual realm, even when it touches earth. The past and future. Deep space.

Not much left eh?



You claim my premises are not supported by the bible, so you need to show how. A specific example or two. Good luck with that.

I never claimed that electrons or humans can be accelerated to the speed of light.
I said that humans might be able to travel at significant percentages of it which is true also for electrons in a particle accelerator.
Questions and Answers - How fast do electrons move?

BTW

About my putting forth an effort at refuting your religious beliefs? No thanks. Those are your beliefs and you have a right to them.
 
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dad

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I never claimed that electrons or humans can be accelerated to the speed of light.
I said that humans might be able to travel at significant percentages of it which is true also for electrons in a particle accelerator.
Questions and Answers - How fast do electrons move?

BTW

About my putting forth an effort at refuting your religious beliefs? No thanks. Those are your beliefs and you have a right to them.
You may not claim my beliefs are against Scripture except in a gossipy, false and unsupportable way. As for human bodies travelling intact as fast as electrons....good luck with that.
 
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Radrook

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You may not claim my beliefs are against Scripture except in a gossipy, false and unsupportable way. As for human bodies travelling intact as fast as electrons....good luck with that.

I am not on the science forum to refute another person's religious beliefs. I merely stated that I have never seen anything in the Bible that condemns science. If indeed you believe that the Bible is anti science then I guess we disagree.

As for electrons travelling at high speeds, please read the following excerpt and other info.

How fast do electrons move?

... you can get the electron up to 90% of the speed of light. But to get it to 99.9% (just another 9.9%), you need a total of over 11 million eV! One way of looking at this is that the electron gets "heavier" (more massive) as it goes ever faster. So it's harder to push it faster. At Jefferson Lab, a typical energy for the electrons in the beam is 4 GeV which is 4 billion eV. That means the electron is traveling at 99.9999992% of the speed of light. Close but still not 100%.

You may wonder how fast the electrons are whizzing around in the atoms around you. A good example (and the most simple to calculate) is the hydrogen atom which is in all our water. A calculation shows that the electron is traveling at about 2,200 kilometers per second. That's less than 1% of the speed of light, but it's fast enough to get it around the Earth in just over 18 seconds.
Questions and Answers - How fast do electrons move?

Interesting Article on Electron speeds.
http://wiki.c2.com/?SpeedOfElectrons


In a particle accelerator an electron has been propelled to a little over 99% the speed of light.
 
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dad

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I am not on the science forum to refute another person's religious beliefs.

Then don't say my ideas are not biblical, and run away with no support. You said this

"My study of the Bible tells me something else."

Either pony up or...you know.



I merely stated that I have never seen anything in the Bible that condemns science. If indeed you believe that the Bible is anti science then I guess we disagree.
Since the bible says the opposite of science about creation then you cannot claim it supports science on origins issues at all...the opposite in fact. Choose sides. This day if you will. If God be God He created like His word says.



In a particle accelerator an electron has been propelled to a little over 99% the speed of light.
I am not an electron...you? Some atoms get hot as the sun also...so? I don't. Nor do I travel 99% the speed of light...even 1%! Let's get real.
 
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Radrook

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Then don't say my ideas are not biblical, and run away with no support. You said this

"My study of the Bible tells me something else."

Either pony up or...you know.



Since the bible says the opposite of science about creation then you cannot claim it supports science on origins issues at all...the opposite in fact. Choose sides. This day if you will. If God be God He created like His word says.



I am not an electron...you? Some atoms get hot as the sun also...so? I don't. Nor do I travel 99% the speed of light...even 1%! Let's get real.

Why don't you pony up and provide biblical support for your assertion? Or you know?

Not presently travelling at a certain speed doesn't mean inability to travel at such a speed. right now you are travelling 65,000 miles per hour around the sun. That's dozens of times faster than a bullet. Or do you oppose that assertion because you believe that the Earth is flat and we are not circling the sun? If so then I guess we disagree.

BTW
I never claimed that people are electrons. You brought in the electron as evidence that it can't be accelerated to light velocity. The problem is I never made that claim. I speak only in terms of significant percentages of light velocity for human space travel since I know that superluminal speed is impossible for things having mass.

Also, I don't consider every claim made by science to be absolutely 100% scientific. A great deal is based on conjecture motivated by wishful thinking. If indeed science makes a statement that contradicts the Bible-I will side with the bible-so you are totally mistaken in your assumption.
 
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dad

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Why don't you pony up and provide biblical support for your assertion? Or you know?
What assertion? I quoted your false empty claim that my ideas were opposed to the bible.

Not presently travelling at a certain speed doesn't mean inability to travel at such a speed. right now you are travelling 65,000 miles per hour around the sun. That's dozes 9f times faster than a bullet. Or do you oppose that assertion because you believe that the Earth is flat and we are not circling the sun? If so then I guess we disagree.

Light moves at what, about 671 million miles per hour? Call us when you can move half that fast eh?
BTW
I never claimed that people are electrons. You brought in the electron as evidence that it can't be accelerated to light velocity. The problem is I never made that claim. I speak only in terms of significant percentages of light velocity for human space travel since I know that superluminal speed is impossible for things having mass.
You brought up electrons when you were asked about man travelling near light speed...as if that helped you. Be honest.


Also, I don't consider every claim made by science to be absolutely 100% scientific. A great deal is based on conjecture motivated by wishful thinking. If indeed science makes a statement that contradicts the Bible-I will side with the bible-so you are totally mistaken in your assumption.
Jesus made all things including the earth, and Gen says it was here before the sun. That kills the BB theory. You agree with me or science?
 
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What assertion? I quoted your false empty claim that my ideas were opposed to the bible. Light moves at what, about 671 million miles per hour? Call us when you can move half that fast eh?
You brought up electrons when you were asked about man travelling near light speed...as if that helped you. Be honest.
Jesus made all things including the earth, and Gen says it was here before the sun. That kills the BB theory. You agree with me or science?
Remark:
What assertion?

Response:
Your assertion that the Bible is opposed to science.

------------

Remark

I quoted your false empty claim that my ideas were opposed to the bible.

Response
The idea that the Bible is opposed to science is opposed to the Bible.
-----------

Remark:


Light moves at what, about 671 million miles per hour? Call us when you can move half that fast eh?

Response:

Are you claiming that it is impossible for matter to move at 50% the speed of light? Protons have been accelerated at 99%c Are you claiming that such protons underwent some kind of deleterious change that indicates that gradual acceleration of a human to that speed would kill the person?

---------------------------------------------------------

Remark
You brought up electrons when you were asked about man travelling near light speed...as if that helped you. Be honest.

Response:
I have a different recollection.
---------------------

Remark:

Jesus made all things including the earth, and Gen says it was here before the sun. That kills the BB theory. You agree with me or science?

Response:
I don't disagree with the Bible, I disagree with your interpretation of that part of it and wit your assumption that it is anti science. I guess we simply have different theological understandings of Genesis and the Bible in general.



BTW
Please remember that many great scientists have been Christians who have not seen any incongruity between their belief in the Bible and the scientific method.
 
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