Are God's Ten Commandments good or bad for Christians?

  • Yes. (they are included in God's the Law of Love, and in the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33)

    Votes: 16 94.1%
  • No they are not good

    Votes: 1 5.9%
  • Some of them are good

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    17

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,207
913
Visit site
✟96,894.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
That's nonsense. The SDA have this peculiarity, some may call a fetish, about God's finger. What comes from God's mouth written on parchment is just as important as what comes from God's finger written on stone. What was written on parchment and what was written on stone were both written during the time of Moses and make up the law of Moses (the old covenant) in its entirety. Again, this is a SDA teaching just like being able to keep the law of Moses without being circumcised. People would have been stoned for such teachings during the time of Christ.

Acts 15 is referring to the law of Moses. And the law of Moses, "the law" for short (Act 15:24), includes the Sabbath. Christians do not have to observe it.
The law of God was given that way to Moses as an object lesson in its eternal nature and and the ceremonial law was given the way it was to demonstrate it's temporary nature.

Now let's look at the results of the NC.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

What were to be the results of the NC? Everyone who participated in it was to know God by having His law written in their hearts.

Now let's look at the exact parallel in Jesus' prayer for His disciples in John 17.

John 17: 1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So what is salvation based upon? Law keeping? Nope. It's based upon knowing God personally. Not knowing about God but actually having a personal relationship with Him

So where have I twisted anything? This is the Adventist teaching of righteousness by faith in a nutshell in which works are the result of faith, not the cause of it. Why? Because when we know God we find out, personally, how loving, kind, just, and merciful He really is.

I'll even give you a quote from Ellen White's writings to demonstrate this.

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with
Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our
thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to
His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our
own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest
delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege
to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience.
Through
an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with
God, sin will become hateful to us.
As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will
take hold of the Strong for strength. But we are not to place the
responsibility of our duty upon others, and wait for them to tell us
what to do. We cannot depend for counsel upon humanity. The Lord
will teach us our duty just as willingly as He will teach somebody
else. If we come to Him in faith, He will speak His mysteries to us
personally. Our hearts will often burn within us as One draws nigh
to commune with us as He did with Enoch. The Desire of Ages p. 668
 
Upvote 0

Canuckster

Active Member
Nov 21, 2022
181
47
57
Calgary
✟29,071.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The law of God was given that way to Moses as an object lesson in its eternal nature and and the ceremonial law was given the way it was to demonstrate it's temporary nature.

Now let's look at the results of the NC.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Many don't understand that that's the new covenant with the "house of Israel and with the house of Judah". That's not the same as the new covenant that's made between Christ and His brethren, His Father's children, "Christians", in a world ruled by Satan. The new covenant with house of Israel and with the house of Judah will be made with the physical remnants of the two houses after Christ returns, binds up Satan and rules the earth. It will be easy to follow because it will be written on their hearts in a world free from Satan’s influences and the wicked men who were under his control.

At that time all those who were under the new covenant with Christ, (Christians who overcame in Satan's world) will have been either resurrected into spirit at His coming, or changed into spirit if they were alive at His coming. They will be spirit kings ruling with Christ, be of the same substance as Christ, His brethren, and share in His rule, in different capacities depending on the size of their reward, Luke 19:15-26. At that time the new covenant with Christ and His Father's children ("Christians" overcoming in a world ruled by Satan) will have been fulfilled/completed.

The other nations of the world during Christ’s rule, will not be under that new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, but they will be required to come up year to year to keep the feast of Tabernacles and pay tribute to the King, otherwise they’ll get no rain.

That being said, Acts 15 is solid scriptural evidence that Christians do not have to keep the old covenant (the law of Moses which includes the Sabbath) to be saved.
 
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
4,837
1,016
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟111,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Many don't understand that that's the new covenant with the "house of Israel and with the house of Judah". That's not the same as the new covenant that's made between Christ and His brethren, His Father's children, "Christians", in a world ruled by Satan. The new covenant with house of Israel and with the house of Judah will be made with the physical remnants of the two houses after Christ returns, binds up Satan and rules the earth. It will be easy to follow because it will be written on their hearts in a world free from Satan’s influences and the wicked men who were under his control.

At that time all those who were under the new covenant with Christ, (Christians who overcame in Satan's world) will have been either resurrected into spirit at His coming, or changed into spirit if they were alive at His coming. They will be spirit kings ruling with Christ, be of the same substance as Christ, His brethren, and share in His rule, in different capacities depending on the size of their reward, Luke 19:15-26. At that time the new covenant with Christ and His Father's children ("Christians" overcoming in a world ruled by Satan) will have been fulfilled/completed.

The other nations of the world during Christ’s rule, will not be under that new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, but they will be required to come up year to year to keep the feast of Tabernacles and pay tribute to the King, otherwise they’ll get no rain.

That being said, Acts 15 is solid scriptural evidence that Christians do not have to keep the old covenant (the law of Moses which includes the Sabbath) to be saved.

Thus the catastrophic error of hyper-dispensationalism.
 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,207
913
Visit site
✟96,894.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Many don't understand that that's the new covenant with the "house of Israel and with the house of Judah". That's not the same as the new covenant that's made between Christ and His brethren, His Father's children, "Christians", in a world ruled by Satan. The new covenant with house of Israel and with the house of Judah will be made with the physical remnants of the two houses after Christ returns, binds up Satan and rules the earth. It will be easy to follow because it will be written on their hearts in a world free from Satan’s influences and the wicked men who were under his control.

At that time all those who were under the new covenant with Christ, (Christians who overcame in Satan's world) will have been either resurrected into spirit at His coming, or changed into spirit if they were alive at His coming. They will be spirit kings ruling with Christ, be of the same substance as Christ, His brethren, and share in His rule, in different capacities depending on the size of their reward, Luke 19:15-26. At that time the new covenant with Christ and His Father's children ("Christians" overcoming in a world ruled by Satan) will have been fulfilled/completed.

The other nations of the world during Christ’s rule, will not be under that new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, but they will be required to come up year to year to keep the feast of Tabernacles and pay tribute to the King, otherwise they’ll get no rain.

That being said, Acts 15 is solid scriptural evidence that Christians do not have to keep the old covenant (the law of Moses which includes the Sabbath) to be saved.
I can see we have no common ground for further discussion. So long.
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,158
327
Midwest
✟106,805.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Please provide one scripture that has a Thus saith the Lord that we no longer need to keep the Sabbath commandment. His faithful followers kept the Sabbath after His death according to the commandment Luke 23:56 when His covenant was ratified at the Cross- It Is Finished- nothing could change- Jesus never corrected them once about not keeping the Sabbath. He commissioned His apostles to observe everything He commanded before ascending back to heaven Mat 28:18-20 and the apostles observed every Sabbath Acts 13:42-44 Acts 18:4 decades after the cross because they were servants of Christ as we should be.
Please provide one new covenant scripture from after Jesus rose from the dead where the apostles/disciples demanded that Gentile Christians keep the Jewish sabbath.

Paul did command the Gentile Christians to pay no attention to the Judaizers who troubled them to keep the festivals, new moons, and sabbaths of the Jews.


Colossians 2:16 So let no one (Judaizer) judge you (Gentiles) in food or in drink, or regarding a (Jewish) festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some
(Judaizers) who went out from us have troubled you (Gentiles) with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment

Galatians 1:7 which is not another; but there are some
(Judaizers) who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Galatians 5:12 I could wish that those
(Judaizers) who trouble you (Gentiles) would even cut themselves off (castrate themselves)!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Canuckster
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,158
327
Midwest
✟106,805.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Gen 2:2-3 is the 7th day sanctified as a Holy Day for mankind - and Ex 20:11 confirms it.
The 7th day sabbath was for God to command as He desired. God commanded the 7th day sabbath for the Israelites only.

God commanded the seventh day sabbath for the Israelites as a sign between God and the Israelites of their covenantal sanctification through circumcision.


Genesis 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Exodus 31:13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.


God never commanded the Gentiles to keep any sabbaths of the Jews.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Canuckster
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,158
327
Midwest
✟106,805.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
7th day Sabbath:
For "ALL Mankind" Is 66:23
Specifically includes gentiles Is 56:6-8
GENTILES ask for 'more gospel preaching to be scheduled the NEXT Sabbath" Acts 13. And they do this AFTER the Jews leave.


In the OT -- any gentile that did not accept the religion of Abraham was pagan. They did not have to become Jews but they needed to worship the God of the bible - and Synagogues is where we find those gentiles in the NT
Is 66:23
From new moon to new moon,
and from sabbath to sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
says the Lord.


This is in the past. This second temple, also known later as Herod's temple, was first built after Cyrus freed the Israelites and helped them to return to Israel. We know that in Herod's temple, Gentiles (all flesh) were allowed to worship God in the outer court of this temple known officially as the Court of the Gentiles.

However, we Christians do not celebrate the new moons or sabbaths of the Israelites nor will we Christians worship God in any future temple of the Israelites. We Christians are God's temple. This status will never change.


2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will live in them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Isaiah 56:6-8 was also fulfilled during the second temple age:


Isaiah 56:6–8
Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
(converts to Judaism)
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him Others
(Gentiles} besides those who are gathered to him.

Link Court of Gentiles in Herod's temple:​
Herod’s temple, destroyed along with the rest of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70, contained four separate “courts,” separated from one another and each designed for a different purpose: the Court of the Gentiles, the Court of the Women, the Court of Israel (or the Court of Men), and the Court of Priests. The Court of the Gentiles is referred to as “the outer court” in Revelation 11:2.
The Court of the Gentiles was the outermost courtyard and the only area of the temple where non-Jews were allowed. As its name implies, the Court of the Gentiles was accessible to Gentiles, foreigners, and those who were considered impure. There, worshippers could mill about, exchange money, and even buy animals for sacrifices. It was from the Court of the Gentiles that Jesus, on two occasions (John 2:11–12; Matthew 21:12–13), drove out the money changers, declaring, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers” (Matthew 21:13). The Court of the Women, the only area of the temple complex in which women could worship, contained the poor boxes. One of these boxes was where the poor widow offered her two mites (Luke 21:1–4). Ceremonially clean Jewish men could enter the Court of Israel, and the Court of Priests, where the altar stood, was accessible only to Levitical priests.
BobRyan GENTILES ask for 'more gospel preaching to be scheduled the NEXT Sabbath" Acts 13. And they do this AFTER the Jews leave.
These Gentiles are Gentile converts to Judaism. After the Jews left the synagogue, the Gentile converts to Judaism ask for more Gospel preaching on the next Sabbath. No uncircumcised Jew or Gentile was allowed in the Jewish synagogues. That is why Paul circumcised Timothy. Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him into the synagogues. Timothy's mother was a Jewess and Timothy was an uncircumcised Jew according to Jewish law.
Acts 13:43 When the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who spoke to them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,158
327
Midwest
✟106,805.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The church you belong to admits there is no scripture authority of the change in the Sabbath, it is a mark of the authority of the catholic church. God’s Sabbath contains His seal and it is the sign the we belong to Him Eze 20:20. God said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, man says we can do what we want instead, Jesus said to live by His every Word Mat 4:4 thats where we should place our faith.
You believe in Scripture alone. I do not.

We Catholics have the oral tradition of the apostles. In this oral tradition is the command to keep holy Sunday the Lord's Day.


2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet


How did the early Christians worship every week on the Lord's day? Here is an excerpt from an early letter that shows us how the early Christians worshipped:

Justin Martyr FIRST APOLOGY, circa 153-155 A.D., CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things,

Jesus Christ taught the early Christians to worship on Sunday.

John 21:25 But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,277
10,577
Georgia
✟907,900.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Is 66:23
From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the Lord.


This is in the past. '
Shall does not mean "DID" it mean in the future it will happen... in the NEW Earth --

Is 66:
22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth,
Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
So will your descendants and your name endure.
23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come
to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go out and look
At the corpses of the people
Who have rebelled against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be extinguished;

Rev 21 describes the New Earth and it is AFTER the Rev 20 future millennium - future to John's day... future still to our day.

============== short interruption
Praising God for the post of @Jan001 as an example of someone posting in opposition to my POV - who:
1. Does NOT resort to ad hominem pejoratives as if doing so would make his/her case.
2. Does go directly to the inconvenient texts that I point to as making the case for my POV
3. Does NOT attempt to derail the topic to some other agenda.

Well done Jan001 !!
============== resume
This second temple, also known later as Herod's temple,
Has nothing to do with is 66:22-24 and the New Earth where aLL MANKIND WILL come before God from Sabbath to Sabbath to worship.
BobRyan GENTILES ask for 'more gospel preaching to be scheduled the NEXT Sabbath" Acts 13. And they do this AFTER the Jews leave.
These Gentiles are Gentile converts to Judaism.
They were converts to the religion of the Bible but were not Jews, were not circumcised. They are called "God fearers" by Paul in Acts 13 which is the term that the Jews used for gentiles that worship the true God but are not circumcised and do not participate in the feasts etc.


After the Jews left the synagogue, the Gentile converts to Judaism ask for more Gospel preaching
The conversion was to the teaching of the Bible regarding the God of the Bible - they were not circumcised as Paul notes.

NO OT text says that gentiles had to be circumcised to worship the God of the Bible.

GOD FEARERS in Acts 13 -- were not circumcised gentiles... they were uncircumcised believing Gentiles who worshiped the one true God. So they could worship God in the Synagogues but they could not worship in the Temple and could not participate in feasts like Passover.

Acts 21:27 When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who instructs everyone everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides, he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place!” 29 For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they thought that Paul had brought him into the temple.

from: God-fearer - Wikipedia

God-fearers (Koinē Greek: φοβούμενοι τὸν Θεόν, phoboumenoi ton Theon)[1] or God-worshippers (Koinē Greek: θεοσεβεῖς, Theosebeis)[1] were a numerous class of Gentile sympathizers to Hellenistic Judaism that existed in the Greco-Roman world,[2][3][4][5] which observed certain Jewish religious rites and traditions without becoming full converts to Judaism.[1][2][3][5][6][7][8] The concept has precedents in the proselytes of the Hebrew Bible.

Many of these Greco-Roman sympathizers to Hellenistic Judaism, which had a monotheistic or henotheistic Pagan background, were worshippers of Caelus (the Roman name/equivalent to Yahweh).[9] Some modern scholars of Judaic studies, such as A. Thomas Kraabel, believe the God-fearers named in the New Testament (such as Cornelius the Centurion) to be a fictional invention of the Acts of the Apostles.[2] More generally, God-fearing has come to mean someone who is honestly religious.

========================

As Acts 15 notes - it is not NON-Christian Jews that were teaching that gentiles could not be saved unless they were circumcised - rather it was CHRISTIAN Jews that were making up that new rule.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,277
10,577
Georgia
✟907,900.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You believe in Scripture alone. I do not.
On the contrary - we believe in testing all doctrine and tradition by scripture alone
.
Just as we see in :
Mark 7:7-13
Acts 17:11
2 Tim 3:16

We Catholics have the oral tradition of the apostles. In this oral tradition is the command to keep holy Sunday the Lord's Day.
We both agree you do not have one single text that makes that statement about week day 1 or Sunday as connected to the term "Lord's Day"
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
Those traditions are listed in the NT text - and you and I both know you do not have one single text saying "week day 1 is the Lord's day" as noted on this other thread

Most of us here would agree that the resurrection was on week-day-1 -- (what we call Sunday today).

However when it comes to the New Testament and the weekly day of worship found there --

1. Not ONE text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not ONE text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not ONE text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not ONE text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not ONE text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not ONE text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not ONE text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

Those points are irrefutable - and you can see how they are avoided in the opposing posts ....

What we DO Find in the NT is
1. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
2. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
3. "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
Where "The first commandment WITH a promise is - Honor your father and mother(Ex 20:12) " Eph 6:2

We also find this in the NT
1. "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
2. there is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9
3. The "Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also" Heb 4:2
4. the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12
5. Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ in Matt 17 - even before the cross.

=========== by contrast EVERY reference to the weekly Sabbath in the NT refers to the seventh day of the week - Saturday

Acts 18:4 4 And he (the Apostle Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

======================================

If this is the case - then keeping week-day-1 instead of the seventh day -- as either "the new Sabbath" or as your own personal "Lord's day" is a preference or a later tradition rather than something that comes to us from the actual New Testament.

No wonder - almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today - the list includes;
  • The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
  • The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
  • Voddie Baucham
  • C.H. Spurgeon
  • D.L. Moody
  • Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
  • D. James Kennedy
  • R.C. Sproul
  • (others...)
* - unit of TEN in verbatim unchanged form or else "edited" by man's tradition


Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight.
Does not say "we meet every week day 1" for worship.
Does not say "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
Does not say "week day 1 is the new Sabbath"
Does not say "week day 1 is a holy day"
Does not say "we meet together on week day 1 in memory of the resurrection of Christ"
1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come.
To "put aside - by himself - alone -- at home" some funds at the start of every week is not the same as
"we meet every week day 1" for worship.
"week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
"week day 1 is the new Sabbath"
"week day 1 is a holy day"
"we meet together on week day 1 in memory of the resurrection of Christ"

Revelation 1:10 I was in the spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
is not the same as
"we meet every week day 1" for worship.
"week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
"week day 1 is the new Sabbath"
"week day 1 is a holy day"
"we meet together on week day 1 in memory of the resurrection of Christ"
How did the early Christians worship every week on the Lord's day? Here is an excerpt from an early letter that shows us how the early Christians worshipped:

Justin Martyr
Is not even remotely a Bible text.
Jesus Christ taught the early Christians to worship on Sunday.

John 21:25 But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
Does not say

"we meet every week day 1" for worship.
"week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
"week day 1 is the new Sabbath"
"week day 1 is a holy day"
"we meet together on week day 1 in memory of the resurrection of Christ"

And of course - the problem with "assuming" that no-non-Bible writer - Christian near the first century could possibly be in error -- was already spelled out for us here --

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: HIM
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,277
10,577
Georgia
✟907,900.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Justin Martyr -

Justin Martyr is a convenient non-Bible source for affirming week-day-1 observance than is actual scripture - but he is in fact a recently converted pagan who still mixes pagan references with his doctrine as follows:


" But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday), and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." ( The First Apology of Justin, chapter 67. Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol. 2, pp. 65, 66.)"​

======================

Paul says we need not "wait" until the second century to see error springing up.
in Acts 20 -- His Caveat Emptor for Christians of the first century

25 “And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face. 26 Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. 28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.​
 
Upvote 0

Canuckster

Active Member
Nov 21, 2022
181
47
57
Calgary
✟29,071.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Different times, conditions and circumstances require different covenants/contracts. The new covenant between the House of Israel and the House of Judah during the time of Christ’s future rule when Satan is bound and his followers are removed from power, is not going to be the same as the old covenant between God and the children of Israel during the times, conditions and circumstances of Moses, before they were divided into the house of Israel and a house of Judah, when the Lord, who became the Christ, ruled over them as a nation through Moses, within established borders within Canaan, while Satan ruled the world and they were surrounded by Satan’s followers and at war with them.

The times, conditions and circumstances during the centuries the children of Israel lived within Egypt, were not suitable or practical for God to make up any covenant or contract identical to the one established with them under Moses. He had to wait until they were under His complete control and dependency during the time of the manna, where He would test them with only one clause, the Sabbath rest, of a large covenant that was soon to come.

The times, conditions and circumstances during the times of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not the same as the times, conditions and circumstances of the children of Israel under Moses. For Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were sojourners dwelling in tents with social and business dealings with the various inhabitants they encountered. They found themselves in a variety of situations where it wouldn’t have been suitable or practical for God to make up any covenant identical to the one established with the children of Israel under Moses, and impose it on them. That’s why there’s no scriptural evidence/record of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the children of Jacob up until the time of the manna, of a 7th day Sabbath observance/rest, or any other Sabbath observances.

When we come to the various and changing times, conditions and circumstances over and entire planet ruled by Satan over the last 2,000 years since Christ, those varied and changing conditions are not the same as the times, conditions and circumstances of the children of Israel under Moses, nor are they the same as when Christ’s rules the whole world when Satan is bound and his followers are removed, nor are they the same as the times during Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It would not be suitable or practical for God, now being a Father of many children, to impose any of the covenants that were with the children of Israel, the house of Israel and the House of Judah during Christ’s rule, or Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, on all His children (Christians) that are from every nation and tongue spanning the entire planet ruled by Satan, over 2,000 years of constant upheaval and change. Thus the new covenant in Christ’s blood, between God the Father and His children (Christians) is not the same as the other covenants and is made suitable for His Children that dwell over the entire planet, under different regimes, different cultures, different circumstances in a world ruled by Satan.

So what we have is certain men over these latter times have taken it upon themselves to make their own covenants. These covenants are made up of the various clauses and segments of covenants that God made, clauses and segments that they find practical to observe for the times and circumstances they are in. Then they impose these man made covenants on Christians, saying they have to follow them to be saved. And because it turned out that making up covenants have become such a lucrative business, it’s going to continue until there’s no longer any business incentive to do so.

Acts 15 is solid scriptural evidence backed by the Holy Spirit, that Christians are not required to burden themselves with circumcision and the law of Moses, which includes the Sabbath.
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,158
327
Midwest
✟106,805.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Shall does not mean "DID" it mean in the future it will happen... in the NEW Earth --

Is 66:
22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth,
Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
So will your descendants and your name endure.
23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come
to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go out and look
At the corpses of the people
Who have rebelled against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be extinguished;

Rev 21 describes the New Earth and it is AFTER the Rev 20 future millennium - future to John's day... future still to our day.
When Isaiah prophesied in chapter 66 in the 700s BCE, this new heavens and new earth were still in the future. However, it was fulfilled with the building of the second temple in about 516 BCE, which Herod later renovated and enlarged during his reign when he added the plaza which is called the Temple Mount today.

The "new heavens and the new earth" are a metaphor for a change in "authority and/or religious system". It is not meant to be literal. No one will be having descendants/children (Isaiah 66:22) after Jesus comes again.


Has nothing to do with is 66:22-24 and the New Earth where aLL MANKIND WILL come before God from Sabbath to Sabbath to worship.
There are no individual sabbath days in eternity. There are no days except for "TODAY". There is no concept of "time" in eternity. It is always the present. It is always "TODAY". We all will be enjoying the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. We will all worship God continually. God will be our only temple.

Revelation 21:22 I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
They were converts to the religion of the Bible but were not Jews, were not circumcised. They are called "God fearers" by Paul in Acts 13 which is the term that the Jews used for gentiles that worship the true God but are not circumcised and do not participate in the feasts etc.

The conversion was to the teaching of the Bible regarding the God of the Bible - they were not circumcised as Paul notes.

NO OT text says that gentiles had to be circumcised to worship the God of the Bible.

GOD FEARERS in Acts 13 -- were not circumcised gentiles... they were uncircumcised believing Gentiles who worshiped the one true God. So they could worship God in the Synagogues but they could not worship in the Temple and could not participate in feasts like Passover.
I agree that not all God-worshippers were circumcised. Cornelius is a good example. However, no uncircumcised person could enter into the synagogues. That was why Timothy was circumcised by Paul, so that he could enter the synagogues with Paul. Jews and uncircumcised Gentiles could not worship together. Jews did not even worship with Samaritans. To worship with an uncircumcised male was forbidden. They were forbidden to eat together. Peter ate with Gentiles. The Jewish converts to Christianity did not like that.

Acts 11:2-4 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him, 3 saying, “Why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?” 4 Then Peter began to explain it to them, step by step, saying,
Acts 21:27 When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who instructs everyone everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides, he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place!” 29 For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they thought that Paul had brought him into the temple.
It is true that no uncircumcised non-convert to Judaism could enter into any court of the temple except for the outer court which was called the Court of the Gentiles.

Exodus 12:48 If an alien who resides with you wants to celebrate the passover to the Lord, all his males shall be circumcised; then he may draw near to celebrate it; he shall be regarded as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it;
As Acts 15 notes - it is not NON-Christian Jews that were teaching that gentiles could not be saved unless they were circumcised - rather it was CHRISTIAN Jews that were making up that new rule.
True.

The non-Christian Jews actually believed that no uncircumcised Gentile could ever be saved. They believed that only persons who practiced Judaism could be saved.


1 Thessalonians 2:13-16 We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last.
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,158
327
Midwest
✟106,805.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
On the contrary - we believe in testing all doctrine and tradition by scripture alone
.
Just as we see in :
Mark 7:7-13
Acts 17:11
2 Tim 3:16
Show me one Scripture that states that we must test all doctrine and tradition by Scripture alone. The three you quoted above absolutely do not state this.
We both agree you do not have one single text that makes that statement about week day 1 or Sunday as connected to the term "Lord's Day"
You are correct.
But we also know that the Christians worshipped God on Sunday the first day of the week and called it the Lord's Day. We know this because of the teachings of the early leaders of Christ's Church.

What is the pillar and ground of bulwark of the truth? Is it Scripture alone?

No, Scripture is not the pillar and bulwark of the truth. It is the Church.


1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Hebrews 13:7; 17-18 Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. ..17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with sighing—for that would be harmful to you. 18 Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.


You may continue to worship on Saturdays, but I will continue to worship on Sundays because that is what Jesus taught the early church leaders to do and that is why they have been teaching and doing this continually now for 2000 years. :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,158
327
Midwest
✟106,805.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Paul says we need not "wait" until the second century to see error springing up.
in Acts 20 -- His Caveat Emptor for Christians of the first century

25 “And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face. 26 Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. 28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.​
Yes, the wolves are busy still today speaking such perverse things as faith alone and Scripture alone. :)

I've enjoyed corresponding with you but it is time for me to move on to other OPs.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,277
10,577
Georgia
✟907,900.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
BobRyan said:

Paul says we need not "wait" until the second century to see error springing up.
in Acts 20 -- His Caveat Emptor for Christians of the first century


25 “And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face. 26 Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. 28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
Yes, the wolves are busy still today speaking such perverse things
No doubt. Even to this very day we have strong opposition to the approved "sola scriptura" testing practice that we see in Acts 17:11

"they studied the SCRIPTURES daily TO SEE IF those things spoken to them by the APOSTLE Paul - WERE SO" Acts 17:11
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,277
10,577
Georgia
✟907,900.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Show me one Scripture that states that we must test all doctrine and tradition by Scripture alone.
Acts 17:11 says to test by scripture. It says they tested by scripture alone if we accept it as it reads. If you want to reject that and instead show us that Acts 17:11 says "They studied the scripture and the teachings of their magisterium daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO" -- please do show us that - in the text.

Mark 7:7-13 tests tradition against scripture alone

You believe in Scripture alone. I do not.
On the contrary - we believe in testing all doctrine and tradition by scripture alone
.
Just as we see in :
Mark 7:7-13
Acts 17:11
2 Tim 3:16

We Catholics have the oral tradition of the apostles. In this oral tradition is the command to keep holy Sunday the Lord's Day.
We both agree you do not have one single text that makes that statement about week day 1 or Sunday as connected to the term "Lord's Day"
You are correct.

But we also know that the Christians worshipped God on Sunday the first day of the week and called it the Lord's Day.
Are you now arguing that at least one time in all of history they met on seek-day-1? Acts 2 says they met every day of the week for a short while. But all the "week after week" worship services in the NT - are for the weekly Sabbath. And if you can show weekly week-day-1 worship services now would be a good time to show what text of scripture that is.

Same is true for anyone in the NT calling week-day-1 (the term used in the New Testament for Sunday) - being called "the Lord's Day"

We know we have not one text calling the first day of the week the Lord's day.
We know that they break bread "every day" in Acts 2 - but that did not make every day reserved as a holy day for no secular work.

We also know that all of the weekly days of worship in the NT are the 7th day Sabbath and that includes Acts 13, Acts 17 and Acts 18:4
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,277
10,577
Georgia
✟907,900.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You may continue to worship on Saturdays, but I will continue to worship on Sundays
Indeed that is how religious liberty works... praising God for religious liberty!

And you?
because that is what Jesus taught the early church leaders to do
A text to that effect would be nice at this point.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,277
10,577
Georgia
✟907,900.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
No, Scripture is not the pillar and bulwark of the truth. It is the Church.
The nation-church traditions in Acts 17:11 told them to reject Paul's teaching as being heresy.
Yet they ignored their church magisterium in Acts 17:11 and chose to "study the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- WERE SO" -- praise God!
1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Does not say "scripture is the church"

Mark 7:7-13 tradition of the nation-church magisterium of Christ's day - slam hammered by Christ - "sola scriptura"

7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
 
Upvote 0