Thoughts on this quote.

[Erinwilcox]

I was in a thread "Once saved always saved?" and the following was written.

And the tragedy of Calvinism, is that NONE of its adherents can know for certain he or she is saved; for only perseverance until DEATH proves whether one was "GOOD SOIL" (demonstrated BY perseverance), or "BAD-soil" (which BELIEVED for a time --- perhaps a whole LIFE) --- but eventually falls away.

Is it a tragedy of Calvinism or a big misunderstanding? My Bible says to make your calling and election sure. So while I would never say, "Oh yes. I'm a Christian, I'll never doubt it (that would be sin, you know). I can sin as much as I want, ignore God as much as I want, but I'm still SAVED!" I believe that as Calvinists we can make our calling and election sure by looking at the fruits of a true Christian. By their fruit ye shall know them. We can pray to God for assurance. He will withhold from us no good thing. And it is good to know that if God has saved us, then we will persevere until death.

 

[lmnop9876]

I was in a thread "Once saved always saved?" and the following was written.

Quote

And the tragedy of Calvinism, is that NONE of its adherents can know for certain he or she is saved; for only perseverance until DEATH proves whether one was "GOOD SOIL" (demonstrated BY perseverance), or "BAD-soil" (which BELIEVED for a time --- perhaps a whole LIFE) --- but eventually falls away.

Is it a tragedy of Calvinism or a big misunderstanding? My Bible says to make your calling and election sure. So while I would never say, "Oh yes. I'm a Christian, I'll never doubt it (that would be sin, you know). I can sin as much as I want, ignore God as much as I want, but I'm still SAVED!" I believe that as Calvinists we can make our calling and election sure by looking at the fruits of a true Christian. By their fruit ye shall know them. We can pray to God for assurance. He will withhold from us no good thing. And it is good to know that if God has saved us, then we will persevere until death

mmmmmm. (just had to say that!)

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I was in a thread "Once saved always saved?" and the following was written.

And the tragedy of Calvinism, is that NONE of its adherents can know for certain he or she is saved; for only perseverance until DEATH proves whether one was "GOOD SOIL" (demonstrated BY perseverance), or "BAD-soil" (which BELIEVED for a time --- perhaps a whole LIFE) --- but eventually falls away.




Is it a tragedy of Calvinism or a big misunderstanding? My Bible says to make your calling and election sure. So while I would never say, "Oh yes. I'm a Christian, I'll never doubt it (that would be sin, you know). I can sin as much as I want, ignore God as much as I want, but I'm still SAVED!" I believe that as Calvinists we can make our calling and election sure by looking at the fruits of a true Christian. By their fruit ye shall know them. We can pray to God for assurance. He will withhold from us no good thing. And it is good to know that if God has saved us, then we will persevere until death.

Big misunderstanding. We as Reformed trust solely on the Merits of Christ for salvation. Nothing could be more assuring than the immeasurable merits of Christ.

 

[Erinwilcox]

Selah!

 

[Jon_]

I was in a thread "Once saved always saved?" and the following was written.

That has to be a Ben Johnson quote.

Is it a tragedy of Calvinism or a big misunderstanding? My Bible says to make your calling and election sure. So while I would never say, "Oh yes. I'm a Christian, I'll never doubt it (that would be sin, you know). I can sin as much as I want, ignore God as much as I want, but I'm still SAVED!" I believe that as Calvinists we can make our calling and election sure by looking at the fruits of a true Christian. By their fruit ye shall know them. We can pray to God for assurance. He will withhold from us no good thing. And it is good to know that if God has saved us, then we will persevere until death.

Well, since the decree of election is a part of God's hidden decree, technically no one can know their ultimate destiny. But God does not leave us without assurance. We are assured of our calling and election through our works of righteousness in the name of Christ. Moreover, the Holy Spirit testifies of our calling in our hearts, assuring us of our justification before the Father.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[jonas3]

Is it a tragedy of Calvinism or a big misunderstanding? My Bible says to make your calling and election sure. So while I would never say, "Oh yes. I'm a Christian, I'll never doubt it (that would be sin, you know). I can sin as much as I want, ignore God as much as I want, but I'm still SAVED!" I believe that as Calvinists we can make our calling and election sure by looking at the fruits of a true Christian. By their fruit ye shall know them. We can pray to God for assurance. He will withhold from us no good thing. And it is good to know that if God has saved us, then we will persevere until death.

Well, since the decree of election is a part of God's hidden decree, technically no one can know their ultimate destiny. But God does not leave us without assurance. We are assured of our calling and election through our works of righteousness in the name of Christ. Moreover, the Holy Spirit testifies of our calling in our hearts, assuring us of our justification before the Father.

Regenerate individuals have been given faith upon regeneration. It is their faith that is their assurance, because faith IS assurance. Regenerate individuals do not have assurance through their, “works of righteousness in the name of Christ”, but through the work of Christ alone in His establishment of a perfect righteousness in which He has imputed to all those who believe (i.e. who are regenerate), as it is written, “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference” – Rom 3:22. The righteousness of God, which is by faith, or the faithfulness of Jesus Christ (i.e. in His establishment of a perfect righteousness by keeping God’s law and being without sin), is unto all (i.e. given to all) and upon all (i.e. rest upon all) that believe (i.e. that are regenerated). Believers ONLY find assurance in what Christ did for them. Believers ONLY know they are saved because they have faith; namely, they believe the gospel.

If one has faith, then one has assurance of their salvation, since assurance is the essence of faith. If one claims to have faith, but doesn’t know if they’re saved, then they don’t have faith, and they do not believe the gospel. In Hebrews chapter 11:1 we read,

“Now faith is the substance [i.e. confidence] of things hoped for, the evidence [i.e. assurance] of things not seen.” – Heb 11:1.

The evidence of faith is assurance in the promises of God. God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. That is a sure and certain promise of God; therefore, those who have been given faith believe in the promises of God with full assurance. They do not doubt their salvation because they know that what God has promised to do will come to pass. They will be saved, because God has promised to save all those who are in Christ.

Christians never place their assurance in their own, “works of righteousness in the name of Christ”. Christians have NO confidence in their own works. They are never assured by their works. They are assured by the Holy Spirit, which has given them faith, as it is written, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have PEACE with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" - Ro 5:1. And again, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God” – Ro 8:16. Christians are assured of their salvation by the faith they have received upon regeneration, and the Holy Spirit bears witness to them that they are the children of God.

Furthermore, I would like to comment on what Jesus said when He said, “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” – Mat 7:20. Jesus here is NOT talking about “good works”, but rather He is talking about DOCTRINE. The “fruit” CANNOT be outward appearance or good works. For starters, Jesus immediately said after this verse that, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many WONDERFUL WORKS?” – Mat 7:22. We see that many false Christians do many “wonderful works”; therefore, one would be greatly deceived by calling someone a Christian solely based upon their “good works”.

The picture of the fruit is an analogy to doctrine. Good fruit, is right doctrine; whereas, bad fruit, is false doctrine. Jesus Christ warned His disciples of this very same thing, "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." - Mat 16:6. What is this leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Were Christ’s disciples to beware of their works? What was the fruit by which the disciplines KNEW these false prophets? It is later explained, "...he [Jesus] bade them [His disciples] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the DOCTRINE of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. - Mat 16:12. The Pharisees and the Sadducees where the most learned, most religious, most righteous, and the most pious people during the time that Jesus walked the earth, and yet, they were the biggest threat to the doctrine of Christ and the truth of the gospel. They did appear unto men as righteous sheep, but inwardly they were ravening wolves, false prophets, bearing false doctrine! Furthermore, it is written, "27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." - Mat 23:27-28. If a person judges someone to be Christian by their beautiful outward appearance of righteousness, then they will NEVER be able to “know them”. Christians only judge by the gospel, and Christians never find assurance in good works, but in truth. Christians know that they are saved because of their God given faith.

-jonas

 

[Erinwilcox]

Furthermore, I would like to comment on what Jesus said when He said, “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” – Mat 7:20. Jesus here is NOT talking about “good works”, but rather He is talking about DOCTRINE. The “fruit” CANNOT be outward appearance or good works. For starters, Jesus immediately said after this verse that, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many WONDERFUL WORKS?” – Mat 7:22.

Can anyone else shed more light on this interpretation? I have never heard this before. I was always taught that the fruit was the fruit of the Spirit.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn015.html#2

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn015.html#2http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn015.html#2
If every branch that had incorrect doctrin was purged, then what about the Arminians? Are all of them to be purged?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom007.html#4

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom007.html#4http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom007.html#4
Do we bring forth doctrine unto God or the works of righteousness (that He causes us to do) for His own glory?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal005.html#22

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal005.html#22http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal005.html#22
Are Christians not know for having the fruit of the Spirit?

We see that many false Christians do many “wonderful works”; therefore, one would be greatly deceived by calling someone a Christian solely based upon their “good works”.

I realize this. But, I would NEVER say such a thing-that would be heresy. However, good works can be a sign of salvation.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam002.html#20

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam002.html#20http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam002.html#20

Faith without works is dead. You cannot have one without the other. You cannot live without water, you cannot have faith without works. The works are the fruit of the faith.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam002.html#18

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam002.html#18http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam002.html#18
This is what I was trying to communicate in my last post regarding this subject.

 

[CCWoody]

Is it a tragedy of Calvinism or a big misunderstanding?

The tradegy is that there are people who go their whole lives without the assurance of the Scriptures that they can rest in their salvation. They are constantly working ON their salvation with fear and trembling instead of working OUT their salvation with fear and trembling. As such, they would assuredly deny that we can know that we have eternal life, despite the fact that this is precisely and exactly what we are told in the Word of God:

1Jo 5:13 GB
(13) These things haue I written vnto you, that beleeue in the Name of that Sonne of God, that ye may knowe that ye haue eternall life, and that ye may beleeue in the Name of that Sonne of God.

 

[Jon_]

Can anyone else shed more light on this interpretation?

Pay no attention to Jonas, Erin.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[CCWoody]

Can anyone else shed more light on this interpretation?

I would take what jonas says with a grain of salt.

 

[JesusPhreek]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt proof of your salvation shown in your actions? Dont we feel the inclination to do right things because we have been saved thru the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[Erinwilcox]

Thanks, Jon. I thought as much, but I wasn't sure. I only knew that I'd NEVER heard anything like that before (and I was an Arminian for twelve long years in many different kinds of churches).

 

[jonas3]

Thanks, Jon. I thought as much, but I wasn't sure. I only knew that I'd NEVER heard anything like that before (and I was an Arminian for twelve long years in many different kinds of churches).

Let me say a few more things.


“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” – James 2:26

If a man says that he has faith, but does not have any accompanying good works, then his faith is a dead faith. If a man has true faith, then his works will show forth this faith. The works do not justify a man’s profession of faith and make the faith real, but rather, the works show forth that a man has real faith. There exists no Christian who has true faith, and does not have good works. And what are good works? They are the keeping of God’s commandments, which naturally flow from a regenerate person; therefore, all who have true faith have good works.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” – 1Jn 2:4.

God’s people strive to keep His commandments because of the truth, or the Spirit, that is in them. On the contrary, we can know that the truth is NOT in a person (i.e. they’re unregenerate) if they profess to believe in Jesus Christ, but have no regard for His commandments. Now, I want to clarify something. By someone's lawless form of life we may know that they are unregenerate and not Christians; however, simply by someone's "law-keeping", or by their "good deeds" we CANNOT know if they are a true Christian. There are many whose lives appear to conform to the law of God who are yet unregenerate. These people may have a "form of godliness" (2Tim 3:5), but they are unregenerate. The end of the "good deeds" of the unregenerate is death, because they think their works are acceptable for their salvation, or that God is pleased by their doing of them, even when they deny the gospel. Therefore, we can know that someone is unregenerate if they have no regard for God’s commandments, which is what the apostle John is saying in the above verse, but we CANNOT know that someone is regenerate simply by their commandment keeping (i.e. good works).

Christians judge righteous judgment by the gospel. As it is written,

“3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” – 2Cor 4:3-4

Christians can know who is presently lost (i.e. unregenerate) if that person does not believe the gospel, which is God’s promise to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. Certainly “fruit” is not just representative of doctrine throughout Scripture, but in the context of Matthew 7, which is what we were talking about, we know the FALSE PROPHETS by their doctrine, just like Jesus told His disciples to beware of the DOCTRINE of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees (Mat 16:12). The Pharisees and the Sadducees did MANY “wonderful works” but Jesus said to them,

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." - Jn 8:44

Jesus said that they, "abode not in the truth", and it was by this fruit (i.e. their doctrine) that Jesus knew they were of their father the devil. Read the whole passage if you will.

As an example, if a person says that Jesus Christ is not God, but does many “wonderful works” do you judge them to be a Christian? If you say no, then why are you not judging them by their “fruits”, which you say are their works?

“But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the WORD, and UNDERSTANDETH IT; which also beareth FRUIT, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” – Mat 13:23

“For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and TRUTH” – Eph 5:9

Remember, true faith is always accompanied with good works; however, “good works” are not always accompanied with true faith.

-jonas