Thoughts on feminism?

[Saucy]

But what are you really fighting for? Women are already equal.

 

[Celticroots]

If an individual says they are "Christian", then they are Christian, so it makes little difference. But, I would say that the feminist follows the teachings of Christ more closely.

Not all people who claim to be Christian are Christians.

 

[jovanovic]

But what are you really fighting for? Women are already equal.

In what way?

 

[Saucy]

In what way?

In every way.

 

[jovanovic]

In every way.

Really? They are viewed as sex objects, they get raped, they get less money, they dont have as much power as guys have (in 9 of 10 its guys who are the boss). Etc.

 

[PeachieKeen]

In every way.

I very much disagree. 1/4 of us are sexually assaulted and don't feel empowered to speak because we know men are held in higher regard, we make less money for the same work, we are overlooked for opportunities because we are women, we are harrassed and demeaned every day on the streets, we have to carry weapons or stay inside at night or else its our fault when we are attacked, heck, we even have to identify with male pronouns because the 'neutral' form of a singular they is 'he.' We are not equal. We are not respected. We are not safe.

 

[Saucy]

I very much disagree. 1/4 of us are sexually assaulted and don't feel empowered to speak because we know men are held in higher regard, we make less money for the same work, we are overlooked for opportunities because we are women, we are harrassed and demeaned every day on the streets, we have to carry weapons or stay inside at night or else its our fault when we are attacked, heck, we even have to identify with male pronouns because the 'neutral' form of a singular they is 'he.' We are not equal. We are not respected. We are not safe.

So, that is unequal to men somehow? Men aren't harassed? Aren't raped? I was, but every time I bring it up, I'm told to shut up because it takes away from women victims. Men are overlooked and demeaned, even by women. Men also feel the need to carry weapons to feel safe.

When they look at women's salaries, what they don't take into account, as Wiley has already pointed out in this thread, that women make different life decisions than men do.

Women’s responsibilities outside of work — mainly looking after children, but also caring for sick and elderly family members — often keep them from taking on the kinds of jobs that would finally close the distance in pay between the genders.

That doesn’t mean that the gender pay gap is the result of some kind of real “choice” women make, according to Claudia Goldin, one of the leading economists studying the gender pay gap.

“Women aren’t choosing to make less,” she told The Huffington Post. Instead, they’re buying the flexibility to handle responsibilities outside of work, said Goldin, who is a professor at Harvard.

The Real Reason Women Still Make Less Than Men

The statistics are misleading because they don't take into account hours worked, time taken off, etc.

In fact, childless women out-earn men because they don't have the same responsibilities.

Childless Women In Their Twenties Out-Earn Men. So?

So, what feminists have a difficult time doing is proving that women are discriminated against solely due to them being women. I don't know any industry where that's true, except for maybe Hollywood. Even then, women can negotiate and accept contracts they want to take and pass on the ones they don't.

All things being equal, if you and I had the same skills, we'd be paid the same for that job.

 

[PeachieKeen]

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[Saucy]

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[Paulie079]

I'm beginning to see that the problem with issues like this is that social media and the way news is distributed causes us to see everything from 20,000 feet. So if a problem exists in the U.S. in general, then everyone needs to be outraged regardless of if it is happening in your community or not. I think it would be more productive and conducive to stuff actually getting done if people took their social media slacktivism and actually tried to make a difference in their individual communities. If that became the trend, we would start to see a paradigm shift.

Also, I feel like when discussions get down to who has it worse or whether or not a certain demographic faces issues, it becomes unproductive because their will always be those outside the demographic arguing that the problem exists while those within the demographic get angry because they have experienced it themselves. Rather than telling women that they don't face challenges, it would be way more productive to build them up. Especially within the church, if men sought to build up women and vice versa, the result would be something pretty cool.

 

[Paulie079]

It appears you can't handle someone having an honest, open discussion about it. There's nothing that frustrates me more in a convo then when someone pulls out the "then you're part of the problem." It's a ridiculous statement.

I'm sorry. I'm a guy. I'm bigger and stronger than you. I don't worry as much when walking down the street. I don't have periods and don't get pregnant. Why is that my fault? What is some feminist movement going to do to change that fact? YOU make the decisions YOU make. If you want to get married, have a family, etc, then yes, that's going to impact the type of career you have and the money you make.

But what NO ONE has done is offer any proof that this is a major problem today. It's nothing more than a political talking point with little substance. I know numerous professional woman and they all do better and make more money than their husbands. I have never seen any circumstance where two people, with the same credentials, experience, and put in as many hours, don't make the same.

Heck, I even provided that childless women make MORE than their men counterparts, but you just shrugged that off. Apparently you can't be reasoned with.

As a person whose approach to discussion/debate has tended to be to get super emotional and to take wild and personal blows and hope something lands when he gets backed into a corner, 1) I'm not sure you are such a great person to champion reason, and 2) I cannot blame someone for not wanting to get too far into a discussion like this with you.

 

[Saucy]

As a person whose approach to discussion/debate has tended to be to get super emotional and to take wild and personal blows and hope something lands when he gets backed into a corner, 1) I'm not sure you are such a great person to champion reason, and 2) I cannot blame someone for not wanting to get too far into a discussion like this with you.

You didn't need to respond to me, but you did. Oh well. I can say the same for you. How many big fights have you gotten into on this forum in the past few months? Hmm, me, Toro, Strider, and several others. Yeah, I'm the ONLY one who gets super emotional and makes personal blows to others. Hypocrite.

 

[Saucy]

What's sad is people can't have an honest discussion these days. We're not allowed to have our own experiences, or if we do, we can't talk about them. As I've tried to share before in these types of conversations, I was raped and abused from the time I was 4 years old up through my teens. I get it. If you think there's a double standard against women and we need to focus on issues concerning them, that's great. At least be open to the conversation and be ready to educate others.

That's all I try to do. I provided sources for my argument. One of them was even the HuffPost! They quoted a Harvard professor (a woman!) who exclusively studies the wage gap. I laid out my post, without emotion and full of reason, but was still attacked for it. When I share that men also deal with those things, it's shrugged off and then you don't want to talk about it.

 

[Paulie079]

You didn't need to respond to me, but you did. Oh well. I can say the same for you. How many big fights have you gotten into on this forum in the past few months? Hmm, me, Toro, Strider, and several others. Yeah, I'm the ONLY one who gets super emotional and makes personal blows to others. Hypocrite.

Hey, I just made an observation, brofessor. I'm not the one typing in all caps. I'd say our tussle was the only "big fight," but hyperbole was always your forte.

If you think about the issue from a personal standpoint--say your mother or sister had the exact same position and started at the exact same time as a man in a basic hourly job, and he was making a dollar an hour more than her. I would guess that you would believe that wasn't right (and I would agree). So if that's happening to anyone, I would think you would be in favor of that not being a thing anymore. So if that's the case, you and Peachie really do agree, it's just that she thinks it's a more widespread issue than you do. But like I said, if you both look at the issue from the ground level rather than at 20,000 feet, I'm guessing you both agree.



Now side-hug and make up, whippersnappers.

 

[Paulie079]

What's sad is people can't have an honest discussion these days. We're not allowed to have our own experiences, or if we do, we can't talk about them. As I've tried to share before in these types of conversations, I was raped and abused from the time I was 4 years old up through my teens. I get it. If you think there's a double standard against women and we need to focus on issues concerning them, that's great. At least be open to the conversation and be ready to educate others.

That's all I try to do. I provided sources for my argument. One of them was even the HuffPost! They quoted a Harvard professor (a woman!) who exclusively studies the wage gap. I laid out my post, without emotion and full of reason, but was still attacked for it. When I share that men also deal with those things, it's shrugged off and then you don't want to talk about it.

The problem is that it is difficult to argue with someone who doesn't follow basic logic. In a discussion over an issue like this, you tend to do one of a couple of things:

-Present completely off-the-wall statements or actions made by an individual or small group of individuals that defend the viewpoint you are arguing against in an attempt to make the entire viewpoint look ridiculous. This is faulty because it is not a fair representation of the viewpoint as a whole.
-Counter a claim made about the challenges of one demographic being widespread by arguing that the same thing happens to other demographics as well. This is faulty because it completely disregards any consideration of which demographic is more likely to face said challenges. Peachie actually did point this out, and she's right. You might be a man who has unfortunately experienced sexual assault, but that does not change the fact that women in general experience it at a much greater rate than men.

The reason people are going to bow out of the discussion early (other than the reasons I previously mentioned) is that you are completely denouncing what they have to say while making statements that don't actually disprove anything even though you act like they do. So you basically create a web of faulty, tangled arguments that people don't have the energy to try to untangle, especially when you have already pretty clearly demonstrated that you have no intention of actually listening and fairly considering what they have to say. You can't expect someone to have an open, honest conversation when you show that you are more interested in arguing than listening.

 

[Saucy]

I know you don't agree with me on a lot of issues, but please stop saying my posts have no reason or logic.

 

[Paulie079]

I know you don't agree with me on a lot of issues, but please stop saying my posts have no reason or logic.

If your desire is to have open, honest conversations, I am telling you how to make that happen. You put words in people's mouths. Peachie said that women face a lot of issues like sexual assault. You then respond by saying, "I was sexually assaulted. So what? That doesn't matter?"

Can you not see how frustrating that is for the other person? You are personalizing it and putting words in their mouth, making them have to defend their character rather than their point. Of course it matters but it's beside the point. The fact that has been your experience doesn't even speak to what she actually said. You are all of a sudden attacking the person rather than addressing their argument. That is not listening well. That is not being fair to the other person's point of view. That is not using reason or logic. We could agree across the board and I would still make this observation.

If you would actually like to have open, honest conversations and you aren't just attempting to paint the other person in a bad light, you will pay attention.

 

[redblue22]

I find comfort in feminist discussions like this.

 

[Saucy]

Except, that wasn't my first post. Or even my second. I felt she came at me personally, so only then did I respond that I've been there and understand what it's like to be in that situation. She later PM'd me to apologize and explain why she reacted the way she did and we hugged it out. It's all good.

My point wasn't to deny that it happens to women at higher rates. I know that's true. I also agree that it would be bad for women to get paid less than a man for the same job. My only disagreement was over the pay gap, which I felt I intelligently tried to discuss.

 

[redblue22]

I wonder if I feel a need to be understood. Maybe a desire. Agreement, no.