This generation

[Hammster]

I already did. I don't have to keep repeating the same point.

You add harvest to the scripture. It’s not there.

It has already filled the earth. The verse does not state the whole earth would be redeemed.

When did that happen?

 

[Jamdoc]

No. Knowing that Daniel 9:26-27 was fulfilled in the 1st century does not make anyone a partial Preterist just because dispensation sensationalists have decided that this is how they can define people who know that Daniel 9:26-27 has been fulfilled, after the dispensation sensationalists have used their faulty eschatological mouse to do a cut 'n paste job with the text in Daniel 9:26-27, cutting it out of its 1st century fulfillment and pasting it into the time of the return of Christ and the end of the Age.

I believe that Satan is not bound, has not been bound, and will only be bound when the beast and its false prophet have been thrown into the Lake of Fire. I believe almost all of Revelation fits into the final 3.5 years of this Age, and I reject the 7-year 'tribulation' nonsense. I'm a Pre-millennialist who knows that Daniel 9:26-27 was fulfilled in the 1st century, that God has only one Israel who are those who are in Christ, and that the part of the Olivet Discourse that speaks about the destruction of the temple and tells those who are in Judea to flee, has already happened, long, long ago.

Neither does believing that part of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in 70 A.D (it was - the temple was destroyed) make anyone a Partial Preterist. You don't get to slap labels just where you please. And it's because you have done, that I've called you a dispensation sensationalist, because in my opinion that's all the 7-year trib and pre-trib rapture and left-behind nonsense is - sensationalist (and false).

No one has it ALL right and no one (including Preterists) has it ALL wrong. We live in a time suspended in-between the ascension of Jesus in the clouds and His return in the clouds, between the (first) coming of Christ and the (second) coming of Christ, between the Kingdom of Christ that has come and the Kingdom of Christ that is coming, between the new heavens and earth being here and the new heavens and earth still coming.

If you believe Matthew 24 was fulfilled in part, how does that make anyone NOT a Partial Preterist.
You believe part was fulfilled, and part was not.

and to be clear
I don't believe in Pretribulationism or a "seven year tribulation"
Because Jesus defines the Great Tribulation to take place after the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by the Prophet Daniel. That's 3.5 years in, so it is at most, 3.5 years.
But, 2 things of note.
Jesus says those days are cut short (Matthew 24:22), and
Jesus says the tribulation ends, then immediately after the sun and moon darken (Matthew 24:29)

That happens at Revelation 6:12.
So anything after Revelation 6:12, is not the Great Tribulation (in fact Revelation 6:16-17 tells us exactly and precisely what it is, the great day of His wrath, His being He who sits on the throne. In other words, the Day of the Lord.)
and anything before the Abomination of Desolation is not the Great Tribulation.

I don't know how long the Great Tribulation is, but I know it's not 3.5 years long, much less 7.
and I know that the second coming comes after it, and that the resurrection is at the second coming.

Reconciling all of this, I am Post Trib-Pre Wrath.

 

[jgr]

Totally misunderstanding the second coming.

Matthew 24:29-31 shows that when Jesus returns, the elect are gathered.
They were instructed to flee and scatter when the Abomination of Desolation happened.
Not sit there and expect to be whisked away, because Great Tribulation was going to happen first.
They see the AoD, flee, because Great Tribulation would come next. But when Jesus returned, they'd be gathered from wherever they scattered to.

I guess this misunderstanding comes from just thinking Jesus comes back and the whole world just explodes like it got hit by the Death Star instantly.

But Revelation 19 shows time passing after the second coming, vultures feasting on the corpses. At the very least you can see that can't you?

I'm talking about the Judean Christians who fled.

Who are you talking about?

 

[Jamdoc]

There is not the slightest hint of "not yet" in Colossians 1:13.

The Kingdom was already an extant reality, and the translation of the Church into it was already an extant reality.

There is not the slightest hint of "not yet" in 1 Peter 2:9.

The Church was already the extant reality of the Holy Nation.


Each was and is an exclusive and indisputable "now".

It has not been delivered to the Father, and only then will you REALLY see it.
even if you die and go to heaven today, you will not REALLY see the Kingdom as God fully intends it to be.
This on earth is NOTHING compared to what God will fully realize. What is in heaven now is NOTHING compared to what God will fully realize.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm talking about the Judean Christians who fled.

Who are you talking about?

Every generation of Christians since, who have been watching and praying for His return since.

 

[Hammster]

If you believe Daniel 7 is fulfilled, what else still needs to be fulfilled?
Explain to me how that doesn't make you a full preterist if you believe that the Kingdom has been delivered to the Father?

I never said that the kingdom has been delivered. All of His enemies have yet to be put under His feet. All rule, authority and power have not been abolished.

So that needs to be fulfilled.

 

[jgr]

Every generation of Christians since, who have been watching and praying for His return since.

The Judean Christians were obviously not thinking about every generation of Christians since.

They survived as a result.

 

[Jamdoc]

I never said that the kingdom has been delivered. All of His enemies have yet to be put under His feet. All rule, authority and power have not been abolished.

So that needs to be fulfilled.

and that will not be fulfilled by earthly means. It will be fulfilled by Jesus returning. "His kingdom is growing" is not the fullness of the Kingdom delivered to the Father, and frankly, before that happens, the saints of the most High will be waged war against, and overcome.

But
Revelation 12

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[sovereigngrace]

All these things, includes all the things that He was talking about in the entire discourse.
That includes His second coming.
Just read the discourse. The disciples connected it all together, Jesus did not rebuke them and say they're separate events with thousands of years between, He gave it to them as connected.

Full preterism can make sense, but requires allegorizing and stretching and deluding yourself into thinking THIS is the New Heavens and New Earth, while having your head stuck in the sand to not see that this world is still cursed, sin rotten, and death ridden.

Futurism makes sense, seeing "all these things" to still be future (though from the looks of things, near future), but having them happen within a single generation, which fits what Jesus said.

To be partial preterist, believing at all, that the Great Tribulation happened around AD70 but believing in a future return of Christ, requires discarding that Jesus said all these things would happen within 1 generation. The point of the verse was to say all these signs would happen in a lifetime so that they COULD effectively be used as signs.

Why is this?
So that we could be watching and be alert.
If the signs happen lifetimes prior to the second coming, you cannot watch, you cannot fit that illustration of a woman going into labor that the bible gives over and over again. Just one day instantly poof, there baby, because you believe the hard labor took place at the beginning of the pregnancy.

I think you think if you state something then that makes it a fact. Well, that is not the way it works. You are so way off I do not know where to start.

The context of Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 is clearly the destruction of Jerusalem.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.

Matthew 24:1-2 records, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Christ was specifically speaking here of “the buildings of the temple” not the city. You cannot anywhere find that Israel is described as this. This is literal precise detail!

Mark 13:1-2 records, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

In this parallel account, Mark corroborates the thought of Matthew.

Luke 21:5-6 records, “And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.

In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.

Whatever people are in view in whatever location (the Bible says Jerusalem and Judea not Johannesburg or Jaffa), they are limited if fleeing “on the sabbath day” (Saturday). This certainly isn't a restriction to American Christians, maybe Israeli ones. Now, why would such a matter be a limitation to one fleeing the great tribulation? Simple. Because of the strict Pharisaic Law in Israel at that time that restricted the actual distance a Jew could walk on the Sabbath day (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), as it was a religious day of rest. Jews were only allowed to only walk three quarters of a mile on the Sabbath before they would break the day of rest. At the time of Jesus the Jewish authorities closed the gates of the city on the Sabbath; therefore flight from the city on that day would have been extremely difficult. How can the Futurists serious relate such a restriction (1) to the Church and (2) the period preceding "the end of the age"? This last assertion further supports the view that the Jewish capital is the setting and the Jews living in that city (prior to AD 70) are the subjects receiving this warning.

 

[DavidPT]

You've still never explained the Judean Christians' recognition that Jesus' warnings were relevant and applicable to them, acted upon them and fled, and saved their lives.

Saved their lives from what? The coming recorded in Matthew 24:30? That coming has zero to do with when anyone is to flee involving what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-16. That coming involves a time after that. Matthew 24:29 places the coming in Matthew 24:30 after the trib of those days, the trib of those days obviously involving fleeing. The trib of those days begin with the AOD, and is meaning great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The tribulation of those days is obviously meaning great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. As of verse 29 the coming recorded in verse 30 hasn't even occurred yet. THe coming in verse 30 is after great tribulation, it is after the sun is darkened, it is after the appearing of the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

No one disputes that Christians heeded Jesus' words and fled in the first century, but that is recorded in Luke 21 not Matthew 24, but even if it is recorded in Matthew 24 as well, that still doesn't help your position, none of it involved the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30 nor the coming recorded in Luke 21:27. Both are referring to the same coming and that coming hasn't even occurred yet.

 

[Jamdoc]

I think you think if you state something then that makes it a fact. Well, that is not the way it works. You are so way off I do not know where to start.

The context of Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 is clearly the destruction of Jerusalem.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.

Matthew 24:1-2 records, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Christ was specifically speaking here of “the buildings of the temple” not the city. You cannot anywhere find that Israel is described as this. This is literal precise detail!

Mark 13:1-2 records, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

In this parallel account, Mark corroborates the thought of Matthew.

Luke 21:5-6 records, “And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.

In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.

Whatever people are in view in whatever location (the Bible says Jerusalem and Judea not Johannesburg or Jaffa), they are limited if fleeing “on the sabbath day” (Saturday). This certainly isn't a restriction to American Christians, maybe Israeli ones. Now, why would such a matter be a limitation to one fleeing the great tribulation? Simple. Because of the strict Pharisaic Law in Israel at that time that restricted the actual distance a Jew could walk on the Sabbath day (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), as it was a religious day of rest. Jews were only allowed to only walk three quarters of a mile on the Sabbath before they would break the day of rest. At the time of Jesus the Jewish authorities closed the gates of the city on the Sabbath; therefore flight from the city on that day would have been extremely difficult. How can the Futurists serious relate such a restriction (1) to the Church and (2) the period preceding "the end of the age"? This last assertion further supports the view that the Jewish capital is the setting and the Jews living in that city (prior to AD 70) are the subjects receiving this warning.

I can refute that with Matthew 24 alone.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In other words.. when you see the signs, Jesus is coming soon, within a short period of time, within a single generation.
He didn't say some of them, then more thousands of years later.
He said all these things
But because He did not know the exact timing of when, It's instructed to the apostles, and every generation until His return.
Because that is what Matthew 24 is ultimately about, His return.

It defeats the purpose of Jesus giving the signs and connecting them to His second coming, if a disconnect in events was intended.
It was not.
so why do you disconnect what Jesus has connected?

The shadow fulfillment they saw they were prudent to think this was it and follow the instructions to flee, even though it was not ultimately the abomination fo desolation, it saved their lives.
A more exact, true eschatological fulfillment of that prophecy will take place shortly before Jesus returns, and I am saying that the instructions Jesus gave are every bit if not even more valid for us to watch for, and follow.
Until He returns.

 

[jgr]

Saved their lives from what?

The fate that would have befallen them had they not fled.

Death.

 

[DavidPT]

The context of Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 is clearly the destruction of Jerusalem.

By including Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20, your position doesn't even make sense, doesn't even agree with the text if you have those verses pertaining to 70 AD but have Matthew 24:30 pertaining to the 2nd coming in the end of this age. We have had this argument before. Matthew 24:29 and the trib of those days, that is undeniably pertaining to Matthew 24:15-22, and that verse 29 tells us that immediately after Matthew 24:15-22, shall the sun be darkened, followed by the coming recorded in verse 30. Verse 30 was not fulfilled in the first century nor is that your position. Why then are you interpreting this in a careless manner by making nonsense out of 'Immediately after' recorded in verse 29? 2000 years later is not immediately after anything. At least Preterists are somewhat consistent here, though they too are wrong. They certainly don't have the coming meant in verse 30 meaning 2000 years after what they are taking verses 15-22 to involve like you do.

 

[DavidPT]

The fate that would have befallen them had they not fled.

Death.

I agree, so what does any of that have to do with the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30? That is the only coming of Christ I see in the text, meaning up to verse 30. I don't see any other coming of Christ in any of the verses preceding verse 30. Some of those verses prior to verse 30 predict His coming, but that is not the same thing as what is recorded in verse 30 since that literally involves His coming.

 

[jgr]

I agree, so what does any of that have to do with the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30? That is the only coming of Christ I see in the text, meaning up to verse 30. I don't see any other coming of Christ in any of the verses preceding verse 30. Some of those verses prior to verse 30 predict His coming, but that is not the same thing as what is recorded in verse 30 since that literally involves His coming.

I've said nothing about Matthew 24:30 recently.

The issue in these recent posts has been whether or not the entirety of Matthew 24 is future.

The experience of the Judean Christians shows that it is not.

 

[John Mullally]

matthew 24 isn’t about Christ’s final coming. It’s about His coming in judgement upon Israel. It was no secret when the temple was completely over turned. The passage no where mentions the whole world mourning. It does, however, mention the tribes of the land mourning, as such did occur when Jerusalem was destroyed and Judea ravaged by the Roman armies. The Greek word for “mourn” in Matthew 24:30 is the exact same word in Septuagint of zechariah 12:10-12.

2875 kóptō – properly, to cut; be incised (struck), resulting in severance ("being cut off"); (figuratively) to mourn (lament) with a cutting sense of personal, tragic loss, i.e. "cut to the heart."

Benson commentary on Matthew 24:30:

I found a number of commentaries for Matthew 24:30 online via Bible Hub and Benson's commentary was among them. Most of the other commentaries from Bible Hub tie Matthew 24:30 to Jesus's Second coming.

You tie Zechariah 12 to Matthew 24:30, which is incomprehensible. Although Zechariah 12 has the Jews mourning, its not associated with judgement upon Israel as you say; because the chapter concerns itself with the Jews being delivered from their adversaries. It is Israel's adversaries being destroyed. Hardly the 70 AD scenario.

Zechariah 12:8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.​

 

[Jamdoc]

I've said nothing about Matthew 24:30 recently.

The issue in these recent posts has been whether or not the entirety of Matthew 24 is future.

The experience of the Judean Christians shows that it is not.

There are multiple imperfect fulfillments of a lot of prophecies. a forerunner, and an ultimate fulfillment.
If there was only 1 single fulfillment and "close enough" was acceptable, then Antiochus Epiphanes IV would have been the Abomination of Desolation, and Jesus would not have referred to it as a still future event in the Olivet Discourse.

So no, seeing an imperfect fulfillment does not rule out a perfect fulfillment in the future.

 

[Jamdoc]

I found a number of commentaries for Matthew 24:30 online via Bible Hub and Benson's commentary was among them. Most of the other commentaries from Bible Hub tie Matthew 24:30 to Jesus's Second coming.

You tie Zechariah 12 to Matthew 24:30, which is incomprehensible. Although Zechariah 12 has the Jews mourning, its not associated with judgement upon Israel as you say; because the chapter concerns itself with the Jews being delivered from their adversaries. It is Israel's adversaries being destroyed. Hardly the 70 AD scenario.

Zechariah 12:8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.​

Zechariah 12 IS tied to Matthew 24:30.
It is not however, tied to AD70.
It is about the future return.
Zechariah 14, is closer to Revelation 19, than either Matthew 24, or Revelation 6.
There appears to be 2 events. an appearance in the clouds, and a battle on the ground.
One is during the darkening of the sun and moon.... the second in the light of the evening.

 

[jgr]

There are multiple imperfect fulfillments of a lot of prophecies. a forerunner, and an ultimate fulfillment.
If there was only 1 single fulfillment and "close enough" was acceptable, then Antiochus Epiphanes IV would have been the Abomination of Desolation, and Jesus would not have referred to it as a still future event in the Olivet Discourse.

So no, seeing an imperfect fulfillment does not rule out a perfect fulfillment in the future.

There was nothing imperfect about Jesus' warnings, and nothing imperfect about their fulfillment.

The Judean Christians escaped and survived.

 

[Jamdoc]

There was nothing imperfect about Jesus' warnings, and nothing imperfect about their fulfillment.

The Judean Christians escaped and survived.

Jesus didn't come in the clouds and gather them to Him.
I'd say that's as imperfect as it gets.