This generation

[Hammster]

So you do realize that makes you a partial preterist right?

The same thing I pose to partial preterists applies here then.
In the verse the OP is about, the generation won't pass away until ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled. ALL THESE THINGS includes Matthew 24:29-31 which is His second coming.
How can you justify a gap of thousands of years?

It’s not His second coming. Your question makes no sense.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No, I’m just extremely efficient in getting to the heart of the matter.

I appreciate your humility.

 

[Jamdoc]

So for you, it’s outside the realm of possibilities that Christ would use OT language, correct?

Daniel 7 is talking about Jesus delivering the Kingdom to the Father, that is what takes place AFTER he comes down from Heaven to Earth.

It is not His first ascension on Pentecost because... well let's look at the passage in context

Daniel 7

2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Similar imagery to Revelation 13 in a sense, the beasts come out of the sea, here they come separately, in Revelation they're combined, the same beasts, made into a chimera. But we know this is end times, because the little horn is the Antichrist.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This refers to the second coming, because that's when the beast is killed and thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 19). The prolonging of the lives of the other empires is the Millennial Kingdom. Earthly Nations are ruled by Christ, but those nations still exist, fulfilling passages like Isaiah 2, where all Nations are vassal states of the King in Jerusalem.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

That's Jesus presenting the Kingdom to God the Father, transitioning from the Millennium, into the Eternal Kingdom.

as I established before, that happens after Revelation 20, at the Great White Throne of Judgement, where the last enemy, death, is done away with forever.

If you believe that Matthew 24 had to do with Daniel 7, then you're in even a worse place than claiming to be a partial preterist and it not being about His return but rather His ascension, because what you're believing in Daniel 7 in context, involves the beginning of the Eternal state, which means all bible prophecy being fulfilled.

Making you a full preterist.

 

[claninja]

Matthew 24:30 has Christ coming back in the clouds in great glory, not secretly with no record attesting to it. Zechariah 12:10-14 has the Jewish people mourning for Jesus in repentance for what was done to him at the cross. In Matthew 24:30, the world mourns for themselves in expectation of coming judgement.

matthew 24 isn’t about Christ’s final coming. It’s about His coming in judgement upon Israel. It was no secret when the temple was completely over turned. The passage no where mentions the whole world mourning. It does, however, mention the tribes of the land mourning, as such did occur when Jerusalem was destroyed and Judea ravaged by the Roman armies. The Greek word for “mourn” in Matthew 24:30 is the exact same word in Septuagint of zechariah 12:10-12.

2875 kóptō – properly, to cut; be incised (struck), resulting in severance ("being cut off"); (figuratively) to mourn (lament) with a cutting sense of personal, tragic loss, i.e. "cut to the heart."

Benson commentary on Matthew 24:30:
Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven — Christ proceeds here in the same figurative style, and the plain meaning of his words is, that the destruction of Jerusalem and of the Jewish state, civil and religious, would be such a remarkable instance of divine vengeance, and such a signal manifestation of Christ’s power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes should mourn, and many should be led from thence to acknowledge him for the true Messiah. To explain this further it may be observed, “The sign from heaven, which both the disciples and Pharisees expected, was some visible appearance of the Messiah in the clouds, and some miraculous interposition of his power, by which the Romans, the masters of the world, were to be destroyed, and a universal empire over all nations erected in behalf of the Jews. This sign they were led to expect, because Daniel had said prophetically, of the Son of man, (Daniel 7:13,) that he saw him coming in the clouds of heaven, and that there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, &c. Nevertheless, by the coming of the Son of man in the clouds, Daniel meant his interposing for the destruction of his enemies, particularly the unbelieving Jews; and the erection of his own kingdom over all nations; a spiritual kingdom, a new dispensation of religion, which should comprehend the whole world within its pale. Therefore, to show the disciples that they had mistaken the prophecy, which referred wholly to the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the conversion of the Gentiles, he adopted it into his prediction of these events, and thereby settled its true meaning.” — Macknight. The figurative expression, Coming in the clouds of heaven, in several other passages of Scripture, signifies God’s interposing evidently and irresistibly, to execute vengeance on a wicked generation, and to assert his own government over the world. See 2 Samuel 22:10-12; Psalm 97:2; Isaiah 19:1.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So you do realize that makes you a partial preterist right?

The same thing I pose to partial preterists applies here then.
In the verse the OP is about, the generation won't pass away until ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled. ALL THESE THINGS includes Matthew 24:29-31 which is His second coming.
How can you justify a gap of thousands of years?

Where is your evidence of that?

The context of Matthew 24:23-34 is clear. Jesus is talking about His future return (in answer to question 2) and what will proceed it: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

 

[claninja]

Making you a full preterist.

incorrect, the belief that the olivet discourse is completely fulfilled is not exclusive to full preterism. Some partial preterists, including myself, don’t believe Jesus was talking about his final coming at the end of the world, but simply his coming in judgement upon Israel, as that did in fact occur within the first century generation.

see the following examples of non full preterists arguing for the past complete fulfillment of the olivet discourse:

Gills exposition on Matthew 24:34 (Gill was a historic premil).
“Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.”

Benson commentary on Matthew 24:34
“This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, — Hereby evidently showing that he had been speaking all this while only of the calamities coming on the Jews, and the destruction of Jerusalem. “It is to me a wonder,” says Bishop Newton, “how any man can refer part of the foregoing discourse to the destruction of Jerusalem, and part to the end of the world, or any other distant event, when it is said so positively here in the conclusion, All these things shall be fulfilled in this generation.”

 

[Hammster]

I appreciate your humility.

No problem.

 

[Hammster]

Daniel 7 is talking about Jesus delivering the Kingdom to the Father, that is what takes place AFTER he comes down from Heaven to Earth.

It is not His first ascension on Pentecost because... well let's look at the passage in context

Daniel 7


Similar imagery to Revelation 13 in a sense, the beasts come out of the sea, here they come separately, in Revelation they're combined, the same beasts, made into a chimera. But we know this is end times, because the little horn is the Antichrist.



This refers to the second coming, because that's when the beast is killed and thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 19). The prolonging of the lives of the other empires is the Millennial Kingdom. Earthly Nations are ruled by Christ, but those nations still exist, fulfilling passages like Isaiah 2, where all Nations are vassal states of the King in Jerusalem.



That's Jesus presenting the Kingdom to God the Father, transitioning from the Millennium, into the Eternal Kingdom.

as I established before, that happens after Revelation 20, at the Great White Throne of Judgement, where the last enemy, death, is done away with forever.

If you believe that Matthew 24 had to do with Daniel 7, then you're in even a worse place than claiming to be a partial preterist and it not being about His return but rather His ascension, because what you're believing in Daniel 7 in context, involves the beginning of the Eternal state, which means all bible prophecy being fulfilled.

Making you a full preterist.

First off, don’t flame. It’s against the rules.

Secondly, let me help you out with where Jesus is.


even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
— Ephesians 2:5-6

Where is Christ seated? At the right hand of the Father.

 

[Timtofly]

Of course. He said it referred to harvest. When I asked him to show that the harvest was in the parable, he couldn’t.

I already did. I don't have to keep repeating the same point.

The parable was about a fig tree, Israel. It was also about a harvest. It was not necessarily about summer. Summer just happens to be the time of harvest. This parable is seen in contrast to cursing Israel which Jesus did in the Temple in chapter 23. Although the event was also symbolized by Jesus cursing a fig tree out of season as well. A prophetic display done in a physical act.


Because the parable states:

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves (blooming), ye know that summer (time of harvest) is nigh:"

This parable is not about "telling the seasons". It is about a bloom and a harvest. It is really not even a sign. It is about an event, that one generation will experience, and further more all the other events as well.

How soon is summer, if you yourself, place 40 years between two events? One event being the OD the other being in 70AD.

You might want to read my post before responding.

“it’s still growing, and will continue to grow until it fills the earth”

It has already filled the earth. The verse does not state the whole earth would be redeemed.

 

[Zao is life]

So you do realize that makes you a partial preterist right?

No. Knowing that Daniel 9:26-27 was fulfilled in the 1st century does not make anyone a partial Preterist just because dispensation sensationalists have decided that this is how they can define people who know that Daniel 9:26-27 has been fulfilled, after the dispensation sensationalists have used their faulty eschatological mouse to do a cut 'n paste job with the text in Daniel 9:26-27, cutting it out of its 1st century fulfillment and pasting it into the time of the return of Christ and the end of the Age.

I believe that Satan is not bound, has not been bound, and will only be bound when the beast and its false prophet have been thrown into the Lake of Fire. I believe almost all of Revelation fits into the final 3.5 years of this Age, and I reject the 7-year 'tribulation' nonsense. I'm a Pre-millennialist who knows that Daniel 9:26-27 was fulfilled in the 1st century, that God has only one Israel who are those who are in Christ, and that the part of the Olivet Discourse that speaks about the destruction of the temple and tells those who are in Judea to flee, has already happened, long, long ago.

Neither does believing that part of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in 70 A.D (it was - the temple was destroyed) make anyone a Partial Preterist. You don't get to slap labels just where you please. And it's because you have done, that I've called you a dispensation sensationalist, because in my opinion that's all the 7-year trib and pre-trib rapture and left-behind nonsense is - sensationalist (and false).

No one has it ALL right and no one (including Preterists) has it ALL wrong. We live in a time suspended in-between the ascension of Jesus in the clouds and His return in the clouds, between the (first) coming of Christ and the (second) coming of Christ, between the Kingdom of Christ that has come and the Kingdom of Christ that is coming, between the new heavens and earth being here and the new heavens and earth still coming.

 

[jgr]

I already have.
It's now but not yet.

Explain what is "not yet" in Colossians 1:13 and 1 Peter 2:9.

You're just saying now.
You don't understand the eschatalogical tension.

I don't understand futurist fantasy and fallacy.

Honestly when the three of you talk about now being the promised New Heavens and New Earth? I should be reporting all 3 of you for being full preterists posing as partial preterists.

Report away.

Because it sure seems like the 3 of you don't think there's anything left to be fulfilled.

2 Peter 3:10-12 is left to be fulfilled.

 

[Jamdoc]

Where is your evidence of that?

The context of Matthew 24:23-34 is clear. Jesus is talking about His future return (in answer to question 2) and what will proceed it: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

All these things, includes all the things that He was talking about in the entire discourse.
That includes His second coming.
Just read the discourse. The disciples connected it all together, Jesus did not rebuke them and say they're separate events with thousands of years between, He gave it to them as connected.

Full preterism can make sense, but requires allegorizing and stretching and deluding yourself into thinking THIS is the New Heavens and New Earth, while having your head stuck in the sand to not see that this world is still cursed, sin rotten, and death ridden.

Futurism makes sense, seeing "all these things" to still be future (though from the looks of things, near future), but having them happen within a single generation, which fits what Jesus said.

To be partial preterist, believing at all, that the Great Tribulation happened around AD70 but believing in a future return of Christ, requires discarding that Jesus said all these things would happen within 1 generation. The point of the verse was to say all these signs would happen in a lifetime so that they COULD effectively be used as signs.

Why is this?
So that we could be watching and be alert.
If the signs happen lifetimes prior to the second coming, you cannot watch, you cannot fit that illustration of a woman going into labor that the bible gives over and over again. Just one day instantly poof, there baby, because you believe the hard labor took place at the beginning of the pregnancy.

 

[Jamdoc]

incorrect, the belief that the olivet discourse is completely fulfilled is not exclusive to full preterism. Some partial preterists, including myself, don’t believe Jesus was talking about his final coming at the end of the world, but simply his coming in judgement upon Israel, as that did in fact occur within the first century generation.

see the following examples of non full preterists arguing for the past complete fulfillment of the olivet discourse:

Gills exposition on Matthew 24:34 (Gill was a historic premil).
“Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.”

Benson commentary on Matthew 24:34
“This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, — Hereby evidently showing that he had been speaking all this while only of the calamities coming on the Jews, and the destruction of Jerusalem. “It is to me a wonder,” says Bishop Newton, “how any man can refer part of the foregoing discourse to the destruction of Jerusalem, and part to the end of the world, or any other distant event, when it is said so positively here in the conclusion, All these things shall be fulfilled in this generation.”

I suppose that is the one way you could claim partial preterism
however that requires stretching of the meaning of the word generation to mean all mankind or Christians in general.
I don't believe that was the thrust of Jesus' statement, that there'd be signs of his second coming 2000 years or more before it happened followed by nothing for thousands of years, and then sudden second coming.
They asked for signs of His second coming, He gave them. Explaining that they would happen within 1 lifetime so they could effectively be used as signs makes sense. Having all the signs happen thousands of years ago so they cannot be used as signs to anticipate and watch, does not.

But Matthew 24:27-31 is crystal clear, that is the second coming.
How do you see "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"
and think "nah, this isn't about the second coming"
How do you see "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." and think "nope, not second coming"?

That's just baffling.

How do you not compare Matthew 24:29 with all Old Testament "Day of the Lord" passages and Revelation 6:12-17?

 

[jgr]

All these things, includes all the things that He was talking about in the entire discourse.
That includes His second coming.
Just read the discourse. The disciples connected it all together, Jesus did not rebuke them and say they're separate events with thousands of years between, He gave it to them as connected.

Full preterism can make sense, but requires allegorizing and stretching and deluding yourself into thinking THIS is the New Heavens and New Earth, while having your head stuck in the sand to not see that this world is still cursed, sin rotten, and death ridden.

Futurism makes sense, seeing "all these things" to still be future (though from the looks of things, near future), but having them happen within a single generation, which fits what Jesus said.

To be partial preterist, believing at all, that the Great Tribulation happened around AD70 but believing in a future return of Christ, requires discarding that Jesus said all these things would happen within 1 generation. The point of the verse was to say all these signs would happen in a lifetime so that they COULD effectively be used as signs.

Why is this?
So that we could be watching and be alert.
If the signs happen lifetimes prior to the second coming, you cannot watch, you cannot fit that illustration of a woman going into labor that the bible gives over and over again. Just one day instantly poof, there baby, because you believe the hard labor took place at the beginning of the pregnancy.

You've still never explained the Judean Christians' recognition that Jesus' warnings were relevant and applicable to them, acted upon them and fled, and saved their lives.

 

[Jamdoc]

First off, don’t flame. It’s against the rules.

Secondly, let me help you out with where Jesus is.


even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
— Ephesians 2:5-6

Where is Christ seated? At the right hand of the Father.

Correct, He's in heaven now, but He returns to Earth, establishes the Millennial Kingdom, and then at the end of the Millennium, delivers up the Kingdom to God the Father, where it becomes the Eternal Kingdom. Again, let me help you out with understanding what that means

1 Corinthians 15

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Daniel 7 passage you are referring to takes place after the little horn is killed, making it after Revelation 19, after His second coming, and because Death is the Last enemy destroyed is Death, that happens at the Great White Throne of Judgement in Revelation 20, because that is when Death and Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire. The Great White Throne of Judgement is therefore, when the Kingdom is delivered to God the Father.
THAT is when we have the fullness of the Kingdom
Everything else is just a shadow.

Compare scripture to scripture.

If you believe Daniel 7 is fulfilled, what else still needs to be fulfilled?
Explain to me how that doesn't make you a full preterist if you believe that the Kingdom has been delivered to the Father?

 

[Jamdoc]

You've still never explained the Judean Christians' recognition that Jesus' warnings were relevant and applicable to them, acted upon them and fled, and saved their lives.

They saw a shadow fulfillment, I did explain.
They probably did expect the second coming to happen.
Like many expect it to be coming in the near future ourselves. But what happens if He doesn't come? well then it's yet future, signs were misinterpreted, the Fig Tree wasn't 1948, 1967, or whatever.

But until He returns? All generations should watch for the signs, and obey the commands given in response.

But because He did not return.. it was not the Great Tribulation. I'm sure many in WWI and WWII thought it was gonna happen then, it didn't.. so Great Tribulation did not happen yet. Which says that the Great Tribulation will be even worse than either of those.

 

[jgr]

They saw a shadow fulfillment, I did explain.
They probably did expect the second coming to happen.
Like many expect it to be coming in the near future ourselves. But what happens if He doesn't come? well then it's yet future, signs were misinterpreted, the Fig Tree wasn't 1948, 1967, or whatever.

But until He returns? All generations should watch for the signs, and obey the commands given in response.

But because He did not return.. it was not the Great Tribulation. I'm sure many in WWI and WWII thought it was gonna happen then, it didn't.. so Great Tribulation did not happen yet. Which says that the Great Tribulation will be even worse than either of those.

The fulfillment was clear, plain, and unmistakable, as I explained.

If they'd been expecting the second coming, they would not have fled, and would have perished as a result.

Thankfully, none of them was a dispensational futurist.

Thus they did flee, and survived.

Invalidating the claim that Matthew 24 is still entirely unfulfilled.

 

[Jamdoc]

Explain what is "not yet" in Colossians 1:13 and 1 Peter 2:9.

the Fullness of the Kingdom.
the King actually returning to Earth, Ruling and Reigning for 1000 years and all nations paying tribute to Zion, beating their swords into ploughshares.
The fullness of the Kingdom, delivered up to God the Father when Death is cast into the Lake of Fire.
What we have now is a shadow, an image, a dusty mirror.

Romans 8

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Now, and not yet

1 Corinthians 15

20

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Now, and not yet

 

[Jamdoc]

The fulfillment was clear, plain, and unmistakable, as I explained.

If they'd been expecting the second coming, they would not have fled, and would have perished as a result.

Thankfully, none of them was a dispensational futurist.

Thus they did flee, and survived.

Invalidating the claim that Matthew 24 is still entirely unfulfilled.

Totally misunderstanding the second coming.

Matthew 24:29-31 shows that when Jesus returns, the elect are gathered.
They were instructed to flee and scatter when the Abomination of Desolation happened.
Not sit there and expect to be whisked away, because Great Tribulation was going to happen first.
They see the AoD, flee, because Great Tribulation would come next. But when Jesus returned, they'd be gathered from wherever they scattered to.

I guess this misunderstanding comes from just thinking Jesus comes back and the whole world just explodes like it got hit by the Death Star instantly.

But Revelation 19 shows time passing after the second coming, vultures feasting on the corpses. At the very least you can see that can't you?

 

[jgr]

the Fullness of the Kingdom.
the King actually returning to Earth, Ruling and Reigning for 1000 years and all nations paying tribute to Zion, beating their swords into ploughshares.
The fullness of the Kingdom, delivered up to God the Father when Death is cast into the Lake of Fire.
What we have now is a shadow, an image, a dusty mirror.

Romans 8


Now, and not yet

1 Corinthians 15

Now, and not yet

There is not the slightest hint of "not yet" in Colossians 1:13.

The Kingdom was already an extant reality, and the translation of the Church into it was already an extant reality.

There is not the slightest hint of "not yet" in 1 Peter 2:9.

The Church was already the extant reality of the Holy Nation.


Each was and is an exclusive and indisputable "now".