There is no Rapture

[sparow]

God does not give us a third type of physical body different from the original one on the 6th day.

The whole point is that without a different physical body, none of Adam's dead corruptible flesh could enter Paradise. Enoch was translated, he was given a permanent incorruptible physical body to enter Paradise.

That is what the first resurrection allows: 2 Corinthians 5:1. Without the original incorruptible physical body, no one can enjoy Paradise, which is a physical place, part of heaven.

You do confuse me. At the first resurrection we take on a new form; John did not know what form that would be other than it would be the same form as Jesus; If John did not know what form, neither would Paul; I believe you are misquoting Paul.

 

[JLB777]

Where is the Son of man while the great tribulation is taking place here on earth? Heaven, right?

Jesus is high above the earth, in the air when the resurrection and rapture take place at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

Once we understand that the resurrection and rapture take place at His coming, it’s easy to see that the resurrection and rapture take place on the last Day, after the great tribulation.


The other main thing that occurs at His coming, is the destruction of the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The Lord returns to gather His saints together to forever be with Him; those who are in heaven and those who are alive and remain on earth, at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

These three main things occur at His coming: in order

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
2. The Rapture
3. The destruction of the wicked; including the antichrist

JLB

 

[Timtofly]

You do confuse me. At the first resurrection we take on a new form; John did not know what form that would be other than it would be the same form as Jesus; If John did not know what form, neither would Paul; I believe you are misquoting Paul.

It is not about knowing. It is about experiencing what we know. We know what form Adam was in prior to disobedience, if we understood Genesis.

Most people don't even understand Genesis.

How would you interpret this verse:

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus."

Are you saying Joseph did not even know who Mary was?

John told you we are the sons of God. We just cannot experience what that is in this dead corruptible flesh from Adam.

Adam had a physical body, and it died. Adam was given a dead corruptible physical body. Why do you fail to see that one physical body is the form of death. The other physical body is the form of life. One is temporal, the other permanent. One is a tent, the other a building. One is corruptible, the other incorruptible. One is from Adam, the other from God. Two different forms, but still a physical body.

We don't know that physical body, because we have not experienced that physical body. It is called spiritual because it is from God, not earth. But that physical body was created on earth for Adam and all the sons of God. Adam disobeyed God, and physically changed/died. He was no longer a son of God, but dead. All humanity from Adam and Eve are in a state of death, while physically alive, then that physical body returns to dust, never to be used again. The soul is resurrected, the first resurrection, into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Of course Paul is explaining a difference. It is different in every way, except physical. You cannot have a body around the soul that is not physical. The spirit is put on over the physical body.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus is high above the earth, in the air when the resurrection and rapture take place at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

Once we understand that the resurrection and rapture take place at His coming, it’s easy to see that the resurrection and rapture take place on the last Day, after the great tribulation.


The other main thing that occurs at His coming, is the destruction of the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The Lord returns to gather His saints together to forever be with Him; those who are in heaven and those who are alive and remain on earth, at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

These three main things occur at His coming: in order

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
2. The Rapture
3. The destruction of the wicked; including the antichrist

JLB

You left out the final harvest mentioned in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25.

You left out coming to the Mount of Olives mentioned in Zechariah 14. You cannot just quote a few verses from Paul. You have to use all of Scripture.

 

[mikeforjesus]

For people who believe in no rapture how do they explain in revelations to faithful church that He will keep them from the hour of trial. How will they be kept unless there is a rapture or like it to be protected.

 

[DavidPT]

For people who believe in no rapture how do they explain in revelations to faithful church that He will keep them from the hour of trial. How will they be kept unless there is a rapture or like it to be protected.

for the record, I believe there will be a rapture, just not a Pretrib rapture. The rapture is Post trib.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


I'm assuming you are meaning pertaining to this passage.

keep
tereo
tay-reh'-o
from teros (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from fulassw - phulasso 5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from koustwdia - koustodia 2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; figuratively, to fulfil a command); by implication, to detain (in custody; figuratively, to maintain); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried):--hold fast, keep(- er), (pre-, re-)serve, watch.


To me I can see this definition---to guard---maybe fitting this verse, like such---Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will guard thee from the hour of temptation---which doesn't require that anyone needs to be raptured in order to be guarded from the hour of temptation.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I see I have thought that before but the problem with that is it is wrong because that means others have no opportunity to overcome to be saved which we know is not true as it says they will be tested meaning it is possible to overcome.

 

[dfw69]

The rapture is the completion of the promises made to Jesus children to become godlike creatures. we are to become a new creation ,born again of the spirit , there are spiritual bodies as Paul teaches and we shall become like Jesus when he comes to gather his children who have been adopted by faith

The only reason to create spiritual beings and receive heavenly bodies is to enter heaven and receive a specific purpose

Jesus is a godlike person in bodily form as described in rev

And we shall be like him
We shall become like the angels and live in gods presence in heaven, that is until new Jerusalem comes down

 

[sparow]

It is not about knowing. It is about experiencing what we know. We know what form Adam was in prior to disobedience, if we understood Genesis.

Most people don't even understand Genesis.

How would you interpret this verse:

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus."

Are you saying Joseph did not even know who Mary was?

John told you we are the sons of God. We just cannot experience what that is in this dead corruptible flesh from Adam.

Adam had a physical body, and it died. Adam was given a dead corruptible physical body. Why do you fail to see that one physical body is the form of death. The other physical body is the form of life. One is temporal, the other permanent. One is a tent, the other a building. One is corruptible, the other incorruptible. One is from Adam, the other from God. Two different forms, but still a physical body.

We don't know that physical body, because we have not experienced that physical body. It is called spiritual because it is from God, not earth. But that physical body was created on earth for Adam and all the sons of God. Adam disobeyed God, and physically changed/died. He was no longer a son of God, but dead. All humanity from Adam and Eve are in a state of death, while physically alive, then that physical body returns to dust, never to be used again. The soul is resurrected, the first resurrection, into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Of course Paul is explaining a difference. It is different in every way, except physical. You cannot have a body around the soul that is not physical. The spirit is put on over the physical body.

I begin assuming that God is a rational God, who does not practice magic,and that everything He does is determined by or is in terms of a pre-existing law; just because things are beyond humane comprehension doesn't mean they are not according a rational, or even mathematical Law.


Genesis was written about 2000 years after the fact by Moses; I wonder what the purpose of the Adam story and the Creation story is; it is too abstract to take literally; so I treat them as parables. Our minds require a beginning and an end; Genesis is a beginning and Revelation an end. It would be wrong to assume there was not an infinite period preceding Genesis where the Gods that we are the image of existed.


Adam was made from the dust of the earth in the first place, as we are. Are angels made from the dust of the earth, not likely; but they can appear as men.

 

[JulieB67]

For people who believe in no rapture how do they explain in revelations to faithful church that He will keep them from the hour of trial. How will they be kept unless there is a rapture or like it to be protected.

Keep in that verse is the very same Greek word that's used in this verse,

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

And we can see from this verse that keep does not mean removed from the earth. I think being kept from the hour of temptation means that one will take that stand if they have to, they will not be tempted by Satan and co and fall away and worship him.

Our Father never promises his children will not endure tribulation. If we go back to other parts of Revelation, it's the people that take that stand with their testimony, that's how they overcome the evil one/Satan. Paul states one must have that gospel armour on to be able to stand in that evil "day". It will happen to one generation. If we go to an earlier verse, we see that some will go through tribulation after being thrown into prison at that time by the devil himself. This coincides with the verses in Revelation 12 and Paul's teaching in Ephesians about who we are fighting in that "evil day". Paul states we must 'stand, having done all to stand.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life..

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

These are Christians in this next verse because this is how they overcome him -

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Christ states that in our patience we must possess our souls. That's how important it is.

 

[Guojing]

Keep in that verse is the very same Greek word that's used in this verse,

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

And we can see from this verse that keep does not mean removed from the earth. I think being kept from the hour of temptation means that one will take that stand if they have to, they will not be tempted by Satan and co and fall away and worship him.

Our Father never promises his children will not endure tribulation. If we go back to other parts of Revelation, it's the people that take that stand with their testimony, that's how they overcome the evil one/Satan. Paul states one must have that gospel armour on to be able to stand in that evil "day". It will happen to one generation. If we go to an earlier verse, we see that some will go through tribulation after being thrown into prison at that time by the devil himself. This coincides with the verses in Revelation 12 and Paul's teaching in Ephesians about who we are fighting in that "evil day". Paul states we must 'stand, having done all to stand.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life..

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

These are Christians in this next verse because this is how they overcome him -

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Christ states that in our patience we must possess our souls. That's how important it is.

So those of us in the Body of Christ, who fell asleep before the Tribulation and could not go thru it, do we get less rewards than those who do face it during their lifespan?

 

[Douggg]

Once we understand that the resurrection and rapture take place at His coming, it’s easy to see that the resurrection and rapture take place on the last Day, after the great tribulation.

No rapture/resurrection event - which is a major event - in Revelation 19 - Jesus's coming a second time to Jerusalem, where the beast, false prophet, Satan, and the armies gathered to make war on Him will be. Jesus will stand on the Mt. of Olives at that time.

The rapture/resurrection event purpose is not to execute judgment on them who will have persecuted and killed the great tribulation martyrs.

The rapture cannot be after the end of, nor after the great tribulation of God's wrath is over, nor begun - because of the promise in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 of not being appointed to God's wrath - to take place at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ, will be triggered when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

The rapture/resurrection event is to...
1. complete our salvation, the redemption of our bodies.
2. to provide an escape from having to go through the great tribulation.

To be taken, a person has to be saved, and believe God's promise, and acting upon it.

 

[dfw69]

I won't be asking.
Jesus tells us that humans never go to heaven, why don't you believe Him?

Actually Jesus said no man can see nor enter the kingdom of god (heaven) “unless” he is born again by water and Spirit

The Spirit gives birth to spiritual beings for that specific purpose

‘Unless’ implies the possibility to enter heaven through faith in his words and the Holy Spirit

And don’t forget Jesus made that way to the father

Jesus was the first fruit to receive the resurrection and assension to the father
And the body of Christ (church) will also received these things in the near future

Jesus is the foreshadowing for the body of Christ (church) he is our resurrection and eternal life with the father

Nicodemus had a hard time understanding this too

After the New earth comes. God will dwell with mankind, in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21 & 22
The reality is: Anyone who believes, humans will ever live in heaven, is a deceived fool. Those who promote that idea, will face a more severe Judgment.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ who walk after spiritual things


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:22

I wouldn’t go around calling pretribbers deceived fools… no need for that kind of talk from brothers

Nor curse them with severe judgement for believing such things unless u know a scripture that says severe judgement comes for rapture preaching!!!

We get the mysteries of the rapture from Paul’s teachings and he mentions nothing of severe judgment for believing in his teachings

 

[dfw69]

No rapture/resurrection event - which is a major event - in Revelation 19 - Jesus's coming a second time to Jerusalem, where the beast, false prophet, Satan, and the armies gathered to make war on Him will be. Jesus will stand on the Mt. of Olives at that time.

The rapture/resurrection event purpose is not to execute judgment on them who will have persecuted and killed the great tribulation martyrs.

The rapture cannot be after the end of, nor after the great tribulation of God's wrath is over, nor begun - because of the promise in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 of not being appointed to God's wrath - to take place at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ, will be triggered when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

The rapture/resurrection event is to...
1. complete our salvation, the redemption of our bodies.
2. to provide an escape from having to go through the great tribulation.

To be taken, a person has to be saved, and believe God's promise, and acting upon it.

Yes also to receive his righteousness and
To be clothe in glory
To receive eternal life
To become like the angels
To become the children of god
To put on immortality
To put on incorruptible bodies
To fulfill the promise that death will be swallowed up in victory

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

 

[sparow]

There is no Rapture!!! The two witnesses will be taken up, but I see no Biblical reason for those of the first resurrection to be taken up into the clouds and even if they were it would only to come down again as the new Jerusalem.

I wonder what happens if a person is wrong; if one believed in the Rapture and was wrong, would one loose his salvation? If one believed there was not a rapture, and was wrong, would one loose his salvation? Or could either loose or gain salvation.


I believe it is time wasted that could have been better used.

 

[keras]

I wonder what happens if a person is wrong; if one believed in the Rapture and was wrong, would one loose his salvation? If one believed there was not a rapture, and was wrong, would one loose his salvation? Or could either loose or gain salvation.

Jesus made it clear: Whoever believes in Me shall be saved - will not perish, but have Eternal life.
So that much is assured for all who believe in and trust Jesus for their Salvation. The problem comes when people who have hung their hopes on a theory like the 'rapture to heaven' and it doesn't happen when disaster strikes, they may renounce their faith and reject the whole Gospel.
People say: No, I would never do that! But what is Prophesied to happen will be so terrifying and shocking, that those who expected to be whisked away, will think God has failed them.

What is soon to come will be our great test of faith. 1 Peter 4:12 Jesus with His winnowing fork, Stay strong in your faith and receive the rewards, or be dammed.

 

[keras]

I wouldn’t go around calling pretribbers deceived fools… no need for that kind of talk from brothers

I consider that there is. Because all the 'rapture to heaven' believers I know, incl you; are confident that they won't have to experience tribulations.
This leads to complacency and a careless attitude, which leaves them with no idea of what really will happen.

We get the mysteries of the rapture from Paul’s teachings

I have studied Paul's teachings for many years and i do not see anywhere that he says: we Christians will be taken to heaven. He may have been. but not that he went to live there, or that we will go there too.
Paul did prophecy a transportation when Jesus Returns, initially into the atmosphere, then to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be. 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31
It is purely by assumption, conjecture and supposition, that people think there will be a 'rapture'.

 

[Douggg]

I have studied Paul's teachings for many years and i do not see anywhere that he says: we Christians will be taken to heaven. He may have been. but not that he went to live there, or that we will go there too.
Paul did prophecy a transportation when Jesus Returns, initially into the atmosphere, then to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be. 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31
It is purely by assumption, conjecture and supposition, that people think there will be a 'rapture'.

Paul said at the conclusion of the rapture/resurrection verses in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, about not being appointed to the time of God's wrath - 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

And at the conclusion of the rapture/resurrection verses in 1Thessalonians4:15-18...
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection event is to...
1. complete our salvation, the redemption of our bodies.
2. to provide an escape from having to go through the great tribulation.

 

[JLB777]

For people who believe in no rapture how do they explain in revelations to faithful church that He will keep them from the hour of trial. How will they be kept unless there is a rapture or like it to be protected.

“Keep from” means to guard or protect.

Why would people in heaven need to pe protected from the hour of trial.

Only people on earth need to be protected from the hour of trial.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

Once we understand that the resurrection and rapture take place at His coming, it’s easy to see that the resurrection and rapture take place on the last Day, after the great tribulation.


The other main thing that occurs at His coming, is the destruction of the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

 

[JLB777]

No rapture/resurrection event - which is a major event - in Revelation 19 - Jesus's coming a second time to Jerusalem, where the beast, false prophet, Satan, and the armies gathered to make war on Him will be. Jesus will stand on the Mt. of Olives at that time.

The rapture/resurrection event purpose is not to execute judgment on them who will have persecuted and killed the great tribulation martyrs.

The rapture cannot be after the end of, nor after the great tribulation of God's wrath is over, nor begun - because of the promise in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 of not being appointed to God's wrath - to take place at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ, will be triggered when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

The rapture/resurrection event is to...
1. complete our salvation, the redemption of our bodies.
2. to provide an escape from having to go through the great tribulation.

To be taken, a person has to be saved, and believe God's promise, and acting upon it.

Not one single scripture is quoted in your post.



Here are the scriptures that plainly teach us that the resurrection and rapture, as well as the destruction of the antichrist all take place at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

Once we understand that the resurrection and rapture take place at His coming, it’s easy to see that the resurrection and rapture take place on the last Day, after the great tribulation.


The other main thing that occurs at His coming, is the destruction of the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The Lord returns to gather His saints together to forever be with Him; those who are in heaven and those who are alive and remain on earth, at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

These three main things occur at His coming: in order

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
2. The Rapture
3. The destruction of the wicked; including the antichrist

JLB